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TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Sanchez

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Are you saying that once the US engine is replaced with TF35000 the US cannot stop Turkiye making or exporting the aircraft?
Yes.
Does martin baker ejection seat fall under ITAR control?

Its UK company, but who know.

Maybe US can block the sale/spare parts.
M-B is a British company. Mk16 used on Rafale for example is built by a France based subsidiary and it is ITAR-Free like rest of Rafale. Depends on the variant. Kaan will use Mk18 and there are indeed plans to localize the seat in the future too.

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Saithan

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I would very much like to see further test flights of KAAN, more than anything I'd like to be shown the progress. Step by step. If we're making progress. Even if it means showing our hand. Proving the progress and being unstoppable would inevitable make our trust be stronger.
 

Huelague

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I can’t find the link where Hakan Celik and Temel Kotil talk to each other’s about production line and the increasing.
 

dBSPL

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Meaningless without engine production to match. 96 TF35000 per year is not trivial
The statements are sure to please every Turkish defense and aerospace enthusiast; however, producing 48 KAANs annually is a highly aggressive target requiring a significant increase in existing infrastructure.

While TEI competes with global giants in precision component production, producing 100-120 TF35000s annually is a completely different level. This scale necessitates the construction of numerous new robotic production lines and at least a dozen new Brems (test cells) in addition to existing facilities. TEI's establishment target of this serial production discipline and 'complete engine package' management through its TF6000 and TF10000 projects is critically important.

Looking at the world, Lockheed Martin produces 120-150 F-35s annually, their engine partner, P&W, delivers 150-200 F135 engines per year, and it took them over a decade to reach that level, and a massive global supply chain behind it. Dassault is struggling to increase Rafale production from 15 to 36 units per year. A single country producing 48 fifth-generation jets per year is a level of production that even the US and China may struggle to achieve today.

The supply of strategic materials (titanium, superalloys), the flawless continuity of thousands of subsystems, and the certification process for each engine will make this pace challenging. While TEI's parts manufacturing capabilities have this potential, it will need to increase its complete assembly and testing capacity by 3-4 times and establish a massive subcontractor ecosystem.

In this context, a partner like Spain can be critically important for achieving a goal of this scale.


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Another question that comes to mind is how to manage the "Modular Production" and "Customer-Specific Configuration" strategies. Because the Kaan project offers potential buyers with an unorthodox market strategy both maximum ITAR-free and fifth-generation solutions, and also enables their participation in production. Certification will be in line with international aerospace quality standards; for example, subcontractors without ISO 9001 and AS/EN/JISQ 9100 qualifications will not be accepted, even if an offset is given to countries like Saudi Arabia in the future.

However, perhaps supply chain fragmentation will also occur. If a customer (e.g., Spain) does not want to source parts from a particular country (e.g., Pakistan) for political or technical reasons, the production line will need to be flexible to source these parts from TUSAŞ's main facilities or other approved subcontractors. This would necessitate TUSAŞ remaining the authority in the final assembly of all parts as the main integrator. Or, while some countries participate in the project's development phase with their engineering capabilities, discussions with countries like Spain will focus more on technology transfer and integration into the European aerospace ecosystem?

In short, Tusaş is ambitious not only because of the enormous supply ecosystem needs that its speculated production target of 32-48 units/year will create, but also because it aims to be a program that brings together different actors in an unprecedented way.
 
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Yasar_TR

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I would be fairly OK with 24 unit per year.
We know from past experience how many they can produce in reality. check out T-129 production speed. Anka-S production speed. Kotil, when asked would tel you 2 per month.

Let them aim for 4 per month. They may then manage 2 a month.
 

AlperTunga

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The statements are sure to please every Turkish defense and aerospace enthusiast; however, producing 48 KAANs annually is a highly aggressive target requiring a significant increase in existing infrastructure.

While TEI competes with global giants in precision component production, producing 100-120 TF35000s annually is a completely different level. This scale necessitates the construction of numerous new robotic production lines and at least a dozen new Brems (test cells) in addition to existing facilities. TEI's establishment target of this serial production discipline and 'complete engine package' management through its TF6000 and TF10000 projects is critically important.

Looking at the world, Lockheed Martin produces 120-150 F-35s annually, their engine partner, P&W, delivers 150-200 F135 engines per year, and it took them over a decade to reach that level, and a massive global supply chain behind it. Dassault is struggling to increase Rafale production from 15 to 36 units per year. A single country producing 48 fifth-generation jets per year is a level of production that even the US and China may struggle to achieve today.

The supply of strategic materials (titanium, superalloys), the flawless continuity of thousands of subsystems, and the certification process for each engine will make this pace challenging. While TEI's parts manufacturing capabilities have this potential, it will need to increase its complete assembly and testing capacity by 3-4 times and establish a massive subcontractor ecosystem.

In this context, a partner like Spain can be critically important for achieving a goal of this scale.


**

Another question that comes to mind is how to manage the "Modular Production" and "Customer-Specific Configuration" strategies. Because the Kaan project offers potential buyers with an unorthodox market strategy both maximum ITAR-free and fifth-generation solutions, and also enables their participation in production. Certification will be in line with international aerospace quality standards; for example, subcontractors without ISO 9001 and AS/EN/JISQ 9100 qualifications will not be accepted, even if an offset is given to countries like Saudi Arabia in the future.

However, perhaps supply chain fragmentation will also occur. If a customer (e.g., Spain) does not want to source parts from a particular country (e.g., Pakistan) for political or technical reasons, the production line will need to be flexible to source these parts from TUSAŞ's main facilities or other approved subcontractors. This would necessitate TUSAŞ remaining the authority in the final assembly of all parts as the main integrator. Or, while some countries participate in the project's development phase with their engineering capabilities, discussions with countries like Spain will focus more on technology transfer and integration into the European aerospace ecosystem?

In short, Tusaş is ambitious not only because of the enormous supply ecosystem needs that its speculated production target of 32-48 units/year will create, but also because it aims to be a program that brings together different actors in an unprecedented way.
If you are able to produce 24 in a year, then to be able to produce 48, you just need to double (simply put) everything. Production lines, test facilities, employees (already begin training them). Then for critical components one needs to acquire and internalize the key sub contractors or ensure their capacity is also increased in time. Even without any customers for KAAN, we should have from the beginning a capacity of 48 in a year. This way we can come to an inventory of 240 pieces in 5 years, which should be the aim. After that, there will certainly be other orders to keep the production lines busy (or why not produce 240 more!). But if they are set up in a clever way, they can also be used to produce other aerial vehicles. We as a nation wasted so much money for no benefit, so it does not hurt being a bit generous with the investments done for our first fighter jet.
 

Zafer

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Some materials that go into the production of Kaan may be hard to source, like the rare earth minerals and such. So even if you figure out how to make things you are still resource constrained to increase numbers. Unless you go into making everything yourself which also takes lots of time or make them from alternate or available materials which makes the product a little less competitive you are a little tied up. TEI chose to use lower performance when making the TS1400 engine rather than going for higher performing but scarce materials, for example.
 
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AlperTunga

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Türkiye has 90m ton of Titanium reserves. In addition, in Beylikova they found 490m ton rare earth elements reserve including titanium and zirkonium. We need to invest in facilities to extract those.

One crucial comment: building Kaan alone wont give us the ultimate freedom we want. We need to build chips, we need to build lithography machines, need to have our own software, operating systems, … basically everything. Our enemy is powerful, our aspirations are lofty but we have to succeed. Just like we melted the iron mountains in Ergenekon to set us free….
 

AlperTunga

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We already do/are.

Just no Turkish equivalent of NVIDIA, AMD etc. Which I don't know why we don't try compete with these companies.
We can build chips for military industry and household appliances etc. But we need to buy the lithography machines from ASML. This company is sort of a monopol in this. We are working to build such machines as well, at least to manufacture larger chips. We should continue to work in this area to produce smaller chips. We cannot and dont need to compete with Nvidia but we should be self-sufficient. If we do a joint venture with Saudi Arabia ( they are interested to invest in such technology) we can surmount at least the financial difficulties.
 

TurkWolf

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We can build chips for military industry and household appliances etc. But we need to buy the lithography machines from ASML. This company is sort of a monopol in this. We are working to build such machines as well, at least to manufacture larger chips. We should continue to work in this area to produce smaller chips. We cannot and dont need to compete with Nvidia but we should be self-sufficient. If we do a joint venture with Saudi Arabia ( they are interested to invest in such technology) we can surmount at least the financial difficulties.
Being self-sufficient is good, but we also must strive to be the best, even if it sounds unrealistic that must be the goal. And NVIDIA is a good benchmark for that. Obviously no-one is truly competing with them for a awhile before people have a cry.
Although i'd rather do a JV with Spain or Italy, least they have more talented individuals to make it work. rest of it I agree.
 

TurkWolf

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What about Finnland, Sweden or Poland?
Pretty much all nations except Saudis, UAE, Israel and I guess France?
Just don't see the point in doing any strategic JV with nations that see us as rivals. Heck, would they(Saudis) even be interested thats another questions.

But, Spain, Italy, Turkiye Med team sounds nice though.
 

dBSPL

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Being self-sufficient is good, but we also must strive to be the best, even if it sounds unrealistic that must be the goal. And NVIDIA is a good benchmark for that. Obviously no-one is truly competing with them for a awhile before people have a cry.
Although i'd rather do a JV with Spain or Italy, least they have more talented individuals to make it work. rest of it I agree.
Look, it’s not just a matter of money; it’s a total "technology embargo." Think of it this way: we’re still struggling to import jet engine technology that’s decades old, often facing a ton of conditions and hesitation. The ASML machines that actually print those legendary Nvidia chips are the most guarded tech on the planet. The US has even banned these machines from being sold to China; so, even if you put the cash on the table, they physically won't deliver that machine to you.

Even if you somehow managed to get one, a single machine costs around $400 million, and building a full-scale factory costs $40 to $50 billion. On top of that, Nvidia isn't just hardware; it’s a massive software ecosystem. Almost all AI systems globally are written in their specific language (CUDA). To become a "new Nvidia," you wouldn't just need a factory; you’d need to change the habits of every software developer in the world.

There’s also another side to this: we don't actually need to compete with a giant that serves end-consumers, gamers, or massive AI server farms right now. The chips required for our military systems, drones, or corporate state infrastructure usually don't need to be at those "bleeding-edge" nanometer levels (like 3nm or 5nm). What we really need are "secure and domestic" chips to run our own missiles, radios, or banking systems. We don't need those billion-dollar Dutch machines for that; we can achieve strategic production for our own needs using more accessible technologies. In short, instead of trying to outdo Nvidia, focusing on being self-sufficient for our own critical infrastructure is a much more logical and realistic goal.
 
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