Indonesia Indonesian Army,Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Darat (TNI-AD)

Jagdflieger said:

Maybe if you can see it in weapon trials - you might think differently

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I've seen video about it, and the weapon trials about how it obliterate a freakin bus (as target).

NEKO said:

I've seen video about it, and the weapon trials about how it obliterate a freakin bus (as target).

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Okay, but I have seen a bit more - like taking out drones, obliterating APC/AFV and picking off infantry puppets in a building at distances of 800m and plus.
But if you don't like it - that's fine with me.

Jagdflieger said:

Okay, but I have seen a bit more - like taking out drones, obliterating APC/AFV and picking off infantry puppets in a building at distances of 800m and plus.
But if you don't like it - that's fine with me.

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Only relying on EO sensor? No search and track radar? Does it have air burst munition?

FPXAllen said:

Even with the recent and dramatic increase of budget for the Bundeswehr?

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Budget promises and actual spending - as you know are very different issues.

FPXAllen said:

Speaking of which, in terms of military hardware, can you tell us about what are the things that will be prioritized in the short term with the increased defense spending?

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Actually the systems that have been mentioned are the same systems that are in the procurement pipeline since the past 4 years.
The biggest investment will be the F-35 - IMO useless - but the USA was not willing to transfer the nuke codes from the Tornado to the Eurofighter
But the investment towards the Tornado replacement was already budgeted 4 years ago.

FPXAllen said:

Reforger 1985?

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No just a regular firing exercise at the US training grounds in Germany at Grafenwöhr

FPXAllen said:

Anyway, sorry for being off topic, but I just bought and downloaded a PC game a few days before that I used to play years ago called "World in Conflict". The setting was Cold-war era Europe featuring both NATO and Warsaw Pact viewpoints and oh boy, it really brings back a lot of memories. Now I actually communicating with someone who was actually part of it in real life.

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i think I know that game - was it around 1990-95?

FPXAllen said:

I'm glad to have a chance to talk with a (former?) member of the German armed forces here. To be honest, I had only few chances to talk with the Germans, and those were always during defense shows both in Indonesia and abroad. Some were hard to approach and to talk with especially during Indo defense in Jakarta - no wonder, though, since I believe it's hard to adjust with the temperature and humidity of the tropics if they're only coming for a few days.

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Yes former Bundeswehr member (army and air-force) - and I have been to quite a lot of these defense shows in SEA like DSA or LIMA etc.

FPXAllen said:

But on other occassions, I find them very friendly and communicative. Hope to meet more of them in the future

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I hope so too - knowing that orang Jerman in Indonesia and Malaysia have quite a solid reputation - and it is also very relaxing and interesting to talk to you guys.

NEKO said:

Only relying on EO sensor? No search and track radar? Does it have air burst munition?

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The BMPT-72 Terminator-2 has also gotten an upgrade with a new multi-channel gunner’s sight that is equipped with a thermal channel, night vision, laser range finder, laser guidance system for missiles, and independent 2-plane stabilization of field of view with a sighting range of 5000 meters. The BMPT-72 received a new digital ballistic computer with weather and topographical support and the armament is stabilized on two axes with electromechanical traversing and elevating drives.
it uses also AHED ammo and can also be easily linked with an independent targeting and following radar system

I think there should be some good info on the www as well

Jagdflieger said:

Budget promises and actual spending - as you know are very different issues.

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Ah yes. Even with the increased budget allocations that was just announced couple of weeks ago, it will still take at least a few more years or so until a substantial changes can be seen.

Jagdflieger said:

No just a regular firing exercise at the US training grounds in Germany at Grafenwöhr

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I see. I didn't know about Grafenwöhr so I wondered how far it is from Fulda. It turns out that it's 176 km southeast of the town where the name of "Fulda gap" derived from.

Jagdflieger said:

i think I know that game - was it around 1990-95?

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2007 actually:


In early 90's I was still a high school student playing Microprose's F-19 and, later, a Su-25 Sturmovik simulator that freaked out my mother when she saw the intro displaying a hammer and sickle symbol eventhough the game was made by an American company:

Jagdflieger said:

Yes former Bundeswehr member (army and air-force) - and I have been to quite a lot of these defense shows in SEA like DSA or LIMA etc.

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If you were also there at the DSA last March, we probably passed each other a couple of times without knowing.

Jagdflieger said:

I hope so too - knowing that orang Jerman in Indonesia and Malaysia have quite a solid reputation - and it is also very relaxing and interesting to talk to you guys.

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Likewise. I'm glad to have this conversation with you.

Anyway, another off topic: I mean no disrespect, but how would you prefer to be adressed? I ask this because I'm probably being too casual toward you, someone who's older and clearly have more experience in life than me.

FPXAllen said:

Ah yes. Even with the increased budget allocations that was just announced couple of weeks ago, it will still take at least a few more years or so until a substantial changes can be seen.

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As you know the Bundeswehr is in a miserable state - even if this "special fund" would be used up entirely in e.g. the next 5 years - it would basically solve the issue that 80% of the existing hardware would actually be usable. Since 1990 Germany has spend about 7 billion to little per year - so you can imagine the actual gap.

FPXAllen said:

I see. I didn't know about Grafenwöhr so I wondered how far it is from Fulda. It turns out that it's 176 km southeast of the town where the name of "Fulda gap" derived from.

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It's around 250km if one counts roads - but the linear distance you mentioned is correct.

FPXAllen said:

2007 actually:

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Ups...

FPXAllen said:

If you were also there at the DSA last March, we probably passed each other a couple of times without knowing.

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I haven't attended the last 2 years (Covid) - but possible that before we passed each other

FPXAllen said:

Anyway, another off topic:

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that will be for the Mod of this section to decide

FPXAllen said:

I mean no disrespect, but how would you prefer to be adressed? I ask this because I'm probably being too casual toward you, someone who's older and clearly have more experience in life than me.

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Just as before - or Jagdflieger
S.E.A. people are very polite and well mannered folks - so casual is just fine with me. I was raised in Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia from the 60's on for almost 18 years and been working/living there and in China permanently since 2002

KF 51 Panther by Rheinmetall

E-MBT by KMW & Nexter

Might be good for the ADRI future MBT preferences

Lordimperator said:

KF 51 Panther by Rheinmetall

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hmm...130mm main-gun - but presently I don't see the feasability for such a caliber within NATO

Lordimperator said:

E-MBT by KMW & Nexter

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That is certainly a feasible tank - however personally I am not convinced of the combat survive-ability of "large" targets in the future, e.g. 15-20 years.

I guess very interesting will be the layout of the next generation Common Indirect Fire Artillery System - developed together by France and Germany
Hopefully it will be part of the Boxer modular system

Jagdflieger said:

I guess very interesting will be the layout of the next generation Common Indirect Fire Artillery System - developed together by France and Germany

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France? For the Caesar replacement or there will be new niche?

Jagdflieger said:

I don't see the feasability for such a caliber within NATO

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well, from the result of armored warfare in east ukraine it's rendered not in a hurry to equip 130mm to existing MBTs, since the EU threat already grind down in numbers by recent if not older system.

but, using that particular gun as a tech demonstrator isn't fault any how.

Jagdflieger said:

combat survive-ability of "large" targets in the future

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yet the west and particulary the Germoney always develope the big one ant the highest power output ratio if talking about tank, i wonder why didn't they resurrect their mighty Airpower tech again ??

Alas, bot of two product above serve only to Rich country only, left alone indonesia with Old leo 2 A4.
cant wait to see Germany to build Tiger tank MBT with 155 mm ofa main gun.

Lordimperator said:

France? For the Caesar replacement or there will be new niche?

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nah, to expensive, let alone 6x6x truck conf, its already enough with it's Digital FCS, no need to aim at aim pole again, just shoot and scoot.

but, to think to buy outdated m109 from US and equip it with PZH 155/L52 gun and computer, that would be nice.

Van Kravchenko said:

since the EU threat already grind down in numbers by recent if not older system.

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They owe Ukraine Forces haha. T14 still be a threat unless the sanction crippled Ru military industry. Or Ru imported chinese mbt

Van Kravchenko said:

left alone indonesia with Old leo 2 A4

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Yep, upgrade all of the Leo, and produce more Kaplan/Harimau for our local industy

Lordimperator said:

France? For the Caesar replacement or there will be new niche?

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It is supposed to replace the Caesar system and the PzH2000

Van Kravchenko said:

.... i wonder why didn't they resurrect their mighty Airpower tech again ??....

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Until there isn't a "real" Europe, no individual European country has the resources to develop and produce/field a next generation fighter.

So it's only up to the USA and China presently to bring on next generation weapon systems.

So far the US military industry (with it's Washington support) has successfully torpedoed/crippled any serious European attempt at developing and producing their own systems. - especially in regards to aircraft or sophisticated missile technology. Off course supported indirectly by European disunity.

Lordimperator said:

T14

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you can count it with your finger mate, let alone foot finger

Jagdflieger said:

crippled any serious European attempt at developing and producing their own systems

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Why ? isn't EU have not enough money? human resources? or even material to produce computer (semiconductor) ?

in one side US has push for EU to not rely on US weapon, while EU countries, aahhhh..... i think they're so lame to develop their own system. even Turkiye has bypass EU in terms of military.

Shin x Vladilena said:

Indonesia is more superior than Russia.

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I will not totally agree, beside every tracked vehicle have it's own role to play.
But, excessive and rigorous training and exercise will give Indonesian a lot. Especially in NATO style warfare

Van Kravchenko said:

Why ? isn't EU have not enough money? human resources? or even material to produce computer (semiconductor) ?

in one side US has push for EU to not rely on US weapon, while EU countries, aahhhh..... i think they're so lame to develop their own system. even Turkiye has bypass EU in terms of military.

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It's a combination of government funds and having a market to sell such weapons
Most of Europa's modern weapon developing capable countries have severe restriction in regards to export - e.g. Sweden and Germany. Which leaves only France and the UK. The latter two depend mainly on exports to former colonies or low volume customers.

E.g. USA basically 1 MBT to develop; the Abrams (most of the Know-how coming from the US-German project MBT-70) - huge US and world market
So very easy to make money for the USA - and as such to enhance technology and funds for further projects.
Europe (smaller military market then that of the USA) and UK, France, Sweden, Germany and (partially Italy) each developing their own MBT's and supplying small markets. No way to really make money - thus extremely depended on government funding.

E.g. USA the F-35 a partial international cooperation project aimed initially at around 3000 units.
Eurofighter - basically three Euro countries and aimed at around 800 units - impossible to make money

Germany on it's own was almost on par with the USA in developing a stealth aircraft in the 70-80's the USA the F-117 and Germany the Lampyridae.
German government fund 500,000 euro - MBB funding less then 10 million Euro - stopped the project around 1986/7
US funding for the F-117? a billion $ plus.

Lampyriadae:

As an Indonesian you surely are familiar with Nurtanio, Habibie, etc. and Franz Josef Strauss (MBB) their great future visions and how all this was frequently sabotaged and hindered by certain parties.

As for your statement:....one side US has push for EU to not rely on US weapon.....
You must have miss-written something. The USA wants NATO members to spend more money onto their defense (as such able to buy more US weapons)
And not relying on the support of the US Armed Forces for which the USA has to cough up their own money.