TR Naval Programs

Yasar said:

MİLDAS’ta Hedef: Quad-Pack ve Seyir Füzesi Atım Kabiliyeti

Roketsan, Milli Dikey Atım Sistemi (MİLDAS) ve MİLDAS’ta kullanılacak hava savunma füzeleri için çalışmalarını sürdürüyor. MİLDAS’ın testi, bu yıl yapılacak.

www.savunmasanayist.com

MILDAS will be integrated to TCG Istanbul this year and be subjected sea trials in 2023.
MILDAS equipped TCG Istanbul will have Hisar RF missile.
The aim is to finally give the MILDAS quad packable capability. Also all indigenous missiles that can be used in MILDAS will bu used in MILDAS.
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This version is rather known as a prototype - evolving product. TN requires the quad-packing it is not something "optional" to be introduced in later configurations. I have stated this several times even months ago when people were claiming single or double packing: Navy wants the quad-pack, period.

Phase-0 : Let's have a national VLS and be able to integrate on a national ship.
Phase-0.5: Let's launch a national missile from national VLS, using national controller and national CMS
Phase-1: (where navy will truly accept the system): A proper national VLS supporting quad-pack* configurations with a quad-packable missiles.
Phase-2: Let's launch Siper (Actual Siper, optionally what is known as Block-1)
Phase-3: Let's launch Gezgin from VLS.

Navy wants all these phases and these will be accomplished, not as something to be called option or configuration. It hasn't emerged after the embargo of the Mk.41 but had planned for TF-2000 since years ago.

Anmdt said:

This version is rather known as a prototype - evolving product. TN requires the quad-packing it is not something "optional" to be introduced in later configurations. I have stated this several times even months ago when people were claiming single or double packing: Navy wants the quad-pack, period.

Phase-0 : Let's have a national VLS and be able to integrate on a national ship.
Phase-0.5: Let's launch a national missile from national VLS, using national controller and national CMS
Phase-1: (where navy will truly accept the system): A proper national VLS supporting quad-pack* configurations with a quad-packable missiles.
Phase-2: Let's launch Siper (Actual Siper, optionally what is known as Block-1)
Phase-3: Let's launch Gezgin from VLS.

Navy wants all these phases and these will be accomplished, not as something to be called option or configuration. It hasn't emerged after the embargo of the Mk.41 but had planned for TF-2000 since years ago.

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I really hope this is the case. The Istif class looks like excellent light frigates but 16 air defense missiles would be a bit too bare-bones.

Mr. Güleryüz: "We are currently in the design phase of the Turkish Type Assault Boat. The next step is prototyping it. After that, we aim to start mass production."

"We have been working on the Mini Submarine for 10-15 years. Building a submarine is not easy, as you know. I can say that we start production soon. We have also offered it to certain countries abroad."

Cabatli_53 said:

Building a submarine is not easy, as you know. I can say that we start production soon. We have also offered it to certain countries abroad."

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These words could mean the first hull is planned for Turkish Navy.

@Anmdt

What will happen to GUR and Ay class subs after REIS class is operational? Are we going to modernize it or decomissioned?

Gur class will remain in service after Reis class but Ay class will retire.

In terms of ages it is Ay - Preveze - Gur.

Preveze is going through MLU, Gur will follow it.

In fact one or two hulls of the Ay class have already been retired.

Anmdt said:

Gur class will remain in service after Reis class but Ay class will retire.

In terms of ages it is Ay - Preveze - Gur.

Preveze is going through MLU, Gur will follow it.

In fact one or two hulls of the Ay class have already been retired.

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We will have modern subsmarie fleet, 14 subs able to fire Atmaca and AKYA .How many MILDEN will be acquired?

Oublious said:

We will have modern subsmarie fleet, 14 subs able to fire Atmaca and AKYA .How many MILDEN will be acquired?

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There are more they can technically launch, maybe some will be shown this year.

Milden will not replace any aging class and assuming its duty will be focusing on far regions which require longer endurance and submerged operations, there could be 4 to 6.

2 for each of the future-planned flotillas (x2), remaining 2 for strategical operations sounds logical. Milden will be an expensive asset.

My secret crush

It is safe to call TT-FAC (TTHB), TT-FACo (TTHK) after the recent updates on the tonnage. It has passed the psychological barrier of being called a FAC

TT-FACr = Turkish Type Fast Attack Corvette
TTHK = Türk Tipi Hızlı Korvet

Anmdt said:

It is safe to call TT-FAC (TTHB), TT-FACo (TTHK) after the recent updates on the tonnage. It has passed the psychological barrier of being called a FAC

TT-FACr = Turkish Type Fast Attack Corvette
TTHK = Türk Tipi Hızlı Korvet

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Bro, Can we talk about 2 different projects? can you go into a little more detail?

Cabatli_53 said:

Bro, Can we talk about 2 different projects? can you go into a little more detail?

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Bro, it is just the original project that has been modified further in lieu with Navy's request. So my post was rather ironical about changing the abbreviation.

It was already above 600 tons in the latest iteration, now it has got even bigger. Turkish Navy's typical attitude, i would be surprised if their end request doesn't vary from the initial request by %30.

At this stage i think they are planning to operate the same vessel in two different tonnage as the duty requires, since the final ship is rather a multi-purpose assault platform than a FAC or missile boat.

However a second project does exist, i think it will be annouced soon from the official channels.

Anmdt said:

Bro, it is just the original project that has been modified further in lieu with Navy's request. So my post was rather ironical about changing the abbreviation.

It was already above 600 tons in the latest iteration, now it has got even bigger. Turkish Navy's typical attitude, i would be surprised if their end request doesn't vary from the initial request by %30.

At this stage i think they are planning to operate the same vessel in two different tonnage as the duty requires, since the final ship is rather a multi-purpose assault platform than a FAC or missile boat.

However a second project does exist, i think it will be annouced soon from the official channels.

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I was wondering why TN keeps changing specifications. I mean if it is to cover the whole Mavi Vatan with our doctrin then I'd say they need bigger vessels like Ada class to sail all the way out and such.

If they're looking at smaller vessels for adalar denizi then I can understand "light" corvette class 600-1200 tonnage. But what's changed in the adalar denizi for the TN to keep changing specifications. I mean the vessels in adalar denizi needs to be sturdy, small and fast because of the "nearness" of the militarized islands I'd say anything too big would still be a target, so smaller FAC would still be better max 60m lenght.

Amphibious assault would require landing ships of sort and that'd be difficult unless air dominance was established. UAV and UCAV would still function as aerial observation and bombings and such thus perhaps landing with bigger vessels would be possible, but still risky.

Saithan said:

I was wondering why TN keeps changing specifications. I mean if it is to cover the whole Mavi Vatan with our doctrin then I'd say they need bigger vessels like Ada class to sail all the way out and such.

If they're looking at smaller vessels for adalar denizi then I can understand "light" corvette class 600-1200 tonnage. But what's changed in the adalar denizi for the TN to keep changing specifications. I mean the vessels in adalar denizi needs to be sturdy, small and fast because of the "nearness" of the militarized islands I'd say anything too big would still be a target, so smaller FAC would still be better max 60m lenght.

Amphibious assault would require landing ships of sort and that'd be difficult unless air dominance was established. UAV and UCAV would still function as aerial observation and bombings and such thus perhaps landing with bigger vessels would be possible, but still risky.

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They are not updating the design or the requirements in fact in the last year, simply they have certain requirements which they don't want to relax further, in order to satisfy this the designers had to increase the tonnage yet still assuring other requirements to be fulfilled.

That is why i am curiously watching the project and where it will evolve to. The design should be truly frozen before August so that first steel cutting may take place in December. Since the first hull is referred as a prototype had better we don't expect a bidding process.

STM will be awarded with a budget to work with a shipyard of their selection, and complete the first hull. Then serial production will commence.

The latest rumors I heard suggest that the Navy is leaning to unmanned systems and/or composite body(manned) boats for really fast attack craft requirements. FAC project might indeed split in two with on one hand a nearly corvette-sized vessel and on the other a really fast composite boat(like Yonca Onuk Boats) or an unmanned boat. As of now, no concrete decision is taken.

Navy basically wants a boat faster than KIlıç FAC(official requirement/speed is important when it comes to FACs) but can also do other things that make it heavier than Kılıç class. This extra weight in return makes it really hard to make the boat faster than Kılıç. When your 550-ton boat suddenly became 750-800 ton it is a huge weight increase and geometry change.

Just recapping some earlier posts so people will not be misguided with certain speculations, I have told this prior to IDEF'21 a year ago in April-May-June 2021. While everybody was expecting FAC-55 to be the TTHB.

I am not speculating based on rumors, i am speculating based on the facts. "I have been there, i have seen it". I can not spill everything in here for some reasons unless the data first became available via official channels by some means.

First, i have notified people about the changes in the plan, when some data became available via OSINT channels, scientific articles, linkedin pages et. al. yet nobody was able to fuse those information from those channels due to the lacking information to do so. (June 2021)

Anmdt said:

TTHB project might have evolved into a new stage, i won't be surprised if i see two genre of FACs while one of them is being the jumbo FAC, other one is in reasonable sizes.
Will they make us wait until IDEF to figure this out? We will see.

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Upon seeing MPAC was publicly displayed in IDEF'21, i have made this statement. With a little bit teaser on the "Fast Patrol Corvette". (August-November)

Anmdt said:

TTHB (TTFAC, TN-FAC also known as NG-FPB) has evolved into a new stage.

STM's MPAC solution was an interim output from the evaluation of the design. The latest design now differs from MPAC, as per certain requests of the Turkish Navy. The design keeps evolving to satisfy the requirements.

STM, thanks to the design contract of TTHB has gained an experience and may offer at least 3 + 1 different matured designs to different customers;

FAC 55 a true FAC, (conceptual design completed, contract design up to 60%, on hold)

MPAC nearing to be a corvette, (conceptual design completed, contract design up to 80%, on hold)

Final TTHB almost a corvette, (conceptual design completed, contract design will be 100%, active status)

FPC corvette (800+ to 1000+ tonnes), (conceptual design completed, contract design expected to begin upon request)

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A few comments from IDEF days;
After seeing Yonca Onuk's FAC concept

Anmdt said:

The one on the behind = MRTP55. I have got a sense this is going to be in inventory.

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A little comment on MPAC

Anmdt said:

Multi-purpose attack craft from STM
Some rumours it is the new FAC for Turkish navy, it is unclear yet. Some says it can be equipped with air defence systems as per request.

TN has a request for low-RCS and this one seems to be defying that.

45 knots maximum speed, codag+ waterjet, 65 meters, x-dar x band search radar. These are pretty much same as the Turkish FAC. The difference could be on the supper structure then.

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In response to a person claimin MPAC has nothing to do with TTHB project

Anmdt said:

I should write this so that your post will not mislead people:

The new concept has;
-Exactly the same tonnage (Increased as per requests of the Navy)
-Maximum-continuous speed and range (reduced to 45 knots from 55 knots at particular sea state)
-Complement (Number of maximum personnel has been increased from what planned earlier)
-Sensor outfit (X-DAR that is in development for TN-FAC, tracking radars, EOTS, EW suite (ED/EA), LPI and voyage radars)
-Weapons outfit (Exact same layout as the Ada Class)
- forgot to add, exactly same propulsion, 2 gas turbine on steerable waterjet, one gas turbine on booster waterjet.

Moreover, STM's FAC55 design has not been ordered neither the Navy has approved that, but SSB-STM has signed a development project that spans from concept to contract design that is being carried out in cooperation with Navy. Also i have information on FAC55 current status through direct channels but i can not make everything explicit in here. I am not implying this is the FAC Turkish Navy getting, but these design updates are related to ongoing FAC design process that is for the Turkish Navy.

It is really better to not talk big on subjects you don't know much about.

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Added a last note when people kept claiming FAC-55 to be a picked design;

Anmdt said:

People should understand there is never a "picked" design if DzKK is procuring. They always modify it extensively (see DIMDEG, see LST, see LHD) several times, if you are lucky only for once.

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Lastly, in ITU-SAVTEK an STM official has made it clear that FAC-55 has nothing to with TTHB - TTFAC thus i had to provide a little more information on the progress and how MPAC is related to the TTHB project, despite of not being the TTHB itself.

Anmdt said:

Since there will be tons of news recently about the TTHB - TN-FAC and leading to an information pollution leaving the latest updates on the project;

I have been telling about how MPAC was actually an interim product of TN-FAC's design process, since it is first revealed in IDEF'21 August, in other words we may call it as an early form of the TN-FAC based on the earlier requirements and converted into a product of the STM. Of which, requirements were defined again by the TN as 2nd Phase of the concept design, as known as Contract-Functional Design, had begun.

I also have listed the differences in the requirements earlier, just recapping;

• relaxation of the maximum speed,
• a more efficient drive on the economical speed,
• better sea-keeping features,
• additional space for crew (a whole new deck),
• additional space for future upgrades (weapons-sensors-countermeasures),
• additional space for EW equipment,
• additional equipment on the mast, thus resulting in an integrated mast,
• changing power pack from COGAG to CODAG*.

Thus, TN-FAC project will conclude in 3 different designs, MPAC as a platform satisfying the earlier requirements set in the beginning of the 2nd Phase, TTHB-1 as a platform satisfying current requirements and thus including refinements on MPAC, TTHB-2 as a platform satisfying current requirements with alternative subsystems.

Both MPAC and TTHB-2 eyes the export market, TTHB-1 aims the TN inventory.

(GT = Gas Turbine, DE= Diesel Engine, WJ= Water jet)

Reviewed options for the main propulsion, so far covers;
*COGAG-1= As 4 GT, 2 GT drives the medium WJ (booster) and 2-each GT driving the side WJ(steerable).
*COGAG-2= Or as 3 GT, each running single WJ.
*CODAG-1= 2 GT drives the medium WJ via combined gear and 2-each of the DE driving the side WJ.
*CODAG-2= 2 GT + 2 DE connected to a main gearbox which can couple-decouple any WJ, thus any single engine may power the entire ship.

Further notes on the design; MPAC or TTHB-2 has larger engine room, optionally can be configured with 2 DE + 2 DE with sacrifice of the maximum speed (35+ Knots) or 2 larger DE and without booster WJ resulting in a reasonable speed (25-30 Knots).

There is always option of the growth, any of these platforms can be scaled up to 800-900 tons, the platform currently is semi-planning hull form and up to a certain tonnage it remains as such.

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Plagiarism is a crime. Just to remind.

In case of doubt, refer to: https://defencehub.live/threads/turkish-type-fast-attack-craft-tt-fac-tthb-project-in-a-nutshell.12322/

As a last note;

TTHB having a higher displacement and still better than Kilic II FAC in these aspects;

- Higher maximum speed
- Longer endurance
- Better seakeeping
- Longer range both in economical and maximum speed (Goes faster yet more efficiently).
- More payload
- More space for new equipments
- Higher capacity of electricity power (thus better sensors and EW)

STM - DIMDEX 22

Fiberoptic distributed acoustic sensor system design and development protocol
Project Start: 05.08.2020
Project Finish: 05.08.2021

Fiberoptic distributed acoustic sensor development project. (MIDAS-3, MIDAS=National Dipping Sonar)
Project Start: 17.01.2020
Project Finish: 17.01.2022

Design and Development of fiberoptic distributed acoustic sensor system (MIDAS-Urun)
Project Start: 27.05.2019
Project Finish: 27.05.2023

Combat-Master said:

STM - DIMDEX 22
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Notice the design changes on F-515, Istanbul.
Should be the "final of the final" design.