TR Naval Programs

Heartbang · Apr 8, 2022

Anmdt said:
Germany is not bound to support MRO or Refueling station maintenance or technical support related to the AIP, according to the deal, they are only bound to supply AIP for all submarines of the class + refueling station. They can easily embargo the AIP by disabling MRO access and Technical support for refueling station beyond the warranty term, following delivering the subs and will render those submarines less effective than before technically converting Reis class to a Diesel-Electric submarine.

If Germany really desires to embargo this class of submarines, they would easily carry it out directly, without any breach in contract.

how tf that kind of deal managed to pass through, its so bizzare! :/
what can we do to get the maintenance support we need?

TheInsider · Apr 8, 2022

Looking at the advances made in Li-Ion battery technologies and what the Japanese are accomplishing with their latest 2 SÖRYU class submarines, may be Diesel + Li-Ion conversion of our Reis class - at least last 3 or 4 ships- , should be seriously considered.

%100 agreed.

Time under water for them are still shorter than AIP versions. But the advantages may outweigh the longevity of submerged time.

This is not a big problem for us as Blacksea, Sea of islands and Mediterranean are obviously smaller than Pacific, Atlantic or the Indian Ocean. Total underwater time is less important. Arguably a Turkish Li-Ion U-214TN can be better than a German AIP U-214 under those circumstances. We should design the bigger MILDEN for oceans with the AIP+Li-Ion combo.

Anmdt · Apr 8, 2022

heartbang said:
how tf that kind of deal managed to pass through, its so bizzare! :/
what can we do to get the maintenance support we need?

None of the contract gives a warranty for long-term support and you mainly rely on the good will and partnership and diplomacy, remember when Germany halted delivering spares for the Leopard tanks and they had to resolve it diplomatically. The contract mainly covers the warranty term of the item, component or the platform (whichever is the longest, depends on the contractor as well)

This is the usual contract, there is nothing wrong about and there is no way you can get a life-time warranty for a submarine to be operated for 30+ years. This is how you make other armies dependent, by supplying them with critical components if not the platforms and simply pull the plug out by halting the spare deliveries, rejecting to conduct MRO of those critical components.

TheInsider · Apr 8, 2022

Patrol ship my ass. This ship has a heavier weapon load than a Milgem. 76mm MKE naval cannon, Gökdeniz, Atmaca, Hisar-O+, Yalman turret(UMTAS,L-UMTAS, Cirit, Sungur). We can see the classical Turkish "we want the best of everything" approach here. Ok, let's construct a ship for patrol duties with a light combat load and without turbines to cut the cost, and let's make weapons optional/FFBNW. Let's add this, let's add that, the end product ends up with a heavier weapon load than a Milgem. Well sometimes this approach is painful but sometimes it ends up being really good. In this case, it ended up being really good.

There are 2 confirmed OPV orders with +8 options. I think most of the optional ships will be built. I hope MTU doesn't block the engines (IMHO no chance of that happening unless an official embargo is declared) like the German covert embargo shenanigans on the submarine project.

I think the Germans have no place to maneuver they are trying pathetic ways to delay the submarine project. They will either go for a full embargo(I doubt that they don't have the balls there will be consequences this time) or they have no choice but to obey the contract eventually. The real problem is Greek and Armenian lobbies working together with the support of Israelis and Americans(real brains behind the operation) Especially Israel doesn't want TN to have AIP technology(aka Israelis Qualitative Military Edge-QME). The covert phony embargo revolves around this.

The more we advance our own technology the more sanctions and road bumps we will see as Israeli QME diminishes.

Ensuring Israel's Qualitative Military Edge

Andrew Shapiro, Assistant Secretary for the Bureau of Political-Military Affairs at the State Department, speaks to The Washington Institute for Near East Policy about the U.S.-Israel relationship and current issues in the Middle East.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

Lool · Apr 8, 2022

TheInsider said:
The real problem is Greek and Armenian lobbies working together with the support of Israelis and Americans(real brains behind the operation) Especially Israel doesn't want TN to have AIP technology(aka Israelis Qualitative Military Edge-QME). The covert phony embargo revolves around this.

Doesnt Turkey plan to produce its own AIP technology or is it too difficult?

TheInsider · Apr 8, 2022

Lool said:
Doesnt Turkey plan to produce its own AIP technology or is it too difficult?

Yes, it does, but it is in development for MILDEN submarine project. Milden is planned for the 2030s.

The first sub was really in a good situation. The German government has to deliberately stop something to cause such a big delay in the delivery of the first sub.

This is so important. I can understand a delay for the second third fourth submarine but I can't understand a year delay for the first submarine. It was on the verge of starting sea trials. Something has to be deliberately stopped so that it can be delayed that much.

Lool · Apr 8, 2022

TheInsider said:
Yes, it does, but it is in development for MILDEN submarine project. Milden is planned for the 2030s.

Good; though we have to wait for the 2030s

It is a bit sad that I wont be seeing the first Reis submarine entering service this year

Manomed · Apr 8, 2022

Lool said:
Good; though we have to wait for the 2030s

It is a bit sad that I wont be seeing the first Reis submarine entering service this year

It will enter service this year

TheInsider · Apr 8, 2022

Manomed said:
It will enter service this year

I hope it does but nearly everyone I know speaks about huge delays even for the first submarine and gives 2023 as a likely date for commissioning.

Anmdt · Apr 8, 2022

Manomed said:
It will enter service this year

Impossible. It will sail this year possibly in next two months after being re-docked for last inspection (should be in dry dock nowadays, or to be) and completion of the harbour acceptance test procedures.

The first hull of a submarine class always goes for more extensive test than the rest, including the depth test and since the structure has been modified these tests will be re-done for 214TN. So, be ready for a long session of sea trials, possibly revisits at the Golcuk shipyard for several times or being dry docked again for inspection after the sea trials. People will be rumouring there are issues about the submarine without knowing the background.

Generally speaking the first hull of every class is the problematic one. When it is a submarine then it is ten fold.

Second, third and four hulls progresses well, the construction continues in the hangar and we can't have an idea about the progress unless someone pays a visit and cameramen allowed to take pictures. Second hull should be about to be taken out from the hangar to the dry dock, then to the equipping berth like the first one in near future, this was going to happen again by May but possibly the Dry dock will be occupied and will be delayed to June.

3rd, 4th progresses faster than progress faster than first two hulls, as casually expected. There are no issues on 5th and 6th one.

Anmdt · Apr 8, 2022

TheInsider said:
I hope it does but nearly everyone I know speaks about huge delays even for the first submarine and gives 2023 as a likely date for commissioning.

It is not everyone, it is the Navy who discretely stating it on their own official website.

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Arge/icerik/denizalti-insa-projeleri

TN has updated the section nearly 10 days ago, it has caught public attention two days ago and since then everybody speaks about this as if it is a closed sourced information.

TheInsider · Apr 8, 2022

So according to you, everything is normal. Another 1-year+ delay is an expected outcome of an already massively delayed project. Germans have no malicious intent and covid delays(force major nothing can be done), and technical/testing delays(legal actions should be taken for those) are the cause of this. What the president said out loud when Merkel's term was nearing an end is pure speculation.

As of April 2022, only factory tests are completed. Harbor tests are not completed and sea trials are not started. Sea trials might take up to a year, harbor tests can take 6-9 months. It seems like at best the first submarine will be delivered 15 months from now.

Well sorry, but I don't buy this everything is normal crap. And my source predates your link. He is probably the most experienced figure of the defense press in Turkiye. When he shared the picture of the first submarine at the harbor a few weeks ago I didn't give much attention to it but now this turned out to be a massive delay.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507256424669270018

Anmdt · Apr 8, 2022

TheInsider said:
So according to you, everything is normal. Another 1-year+ delay is an expected outcome of an already massively delayed project. Germans have no malicious intent and covid delays(force major nothing can be done), and technical/testing delays(legal actions should be taken for those) are the cause of this. What the president said out loud when Merkel's term was nearing an end is pure speculation.

As of April 2022, only factory tests are completed. Harbor tests are not completed and sea trials are not started. Sea trials might take up to a year, harbor tests can take 6-9 months. It seems like at best the first submarine will be delivered 15 months from now.

Well sorry, but I don't buy this everything is normal crap. And my source predates your link. He is probably the most experienced figure of the defense press in Turkiye. When he shared the picture of the first submarine at the harbor a few weeks ago I didn't give much attention to it but now this turned out to be a massive delay.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507256424669270018

1st kindly click reply while replying to someone.

2nd i have given my two cent on the matter, my information is not based on twitter or other defence forums, defence journals or anyone else but self-experience or knowledge.

3rd i am not making things up through some rumors or by google searches or by feeding from some twitter accounts.

4th please spare some time to read my post and posting some gibberish response. You sometimes skip reading people's post just to make your own point and to have a say on the matter.

Ibrahim sunnetci is a valuable person, yet all he does on this matter is to report the submarine is taken to the dry dock, the submarine was already planned to be taken to the drydock according to the schedule, i am literally too busy to explain detailed FAT / HAT / SAT procedures here in response of your google-fed information. The rest on this matter is your wild imagination, wannabe expert gibberish comments based on rumours circulating in twitter, or reachable via some cringey youtube videos or simple google searches.

The fact is that, you didn't even know the navy had already updated the website and the expected delivery date but all you did was telling 'people are talking the first sub will be delivered in 2023'.

TheInsider · Apr 8, 2022

Anmdt said:
1st kindly click reply while replying to someone.

2nd i have given my two cent on the matter, my information is not based on twitter or other defence forums, defence journals or anyone else but self-experience or knowledge.

3rd i am not making things up through some rumors or by google searches or by feeding from some twitter accounts.

4th please spare some time to read my post and posting some gibberish response. You sometimes skip reading people's post just to make your own point and to have a say on the matter.

Ibrahim sunnetci is a valuable person, yet all he does on this matter is to report the submarine is taken to the dry dock, the submarine was already planned to be taken to the drydock according to the schedule, i am literally too busy to explain detailed FAT / HAT / SAT procedures here in response of your google-fed information. The rest on this matter is your wild imagination, wannabe expert gibberish comments based on rumours circulating in twitter, or reachable via some cringey youtube videos or simple google searches.

The fact is that, you didn't even know the navy had already updated the website and the expected delivery date but all you did was telling 'people are talking the first sub will be delivered in 2023'.

1) I don't care. It is not an obligation to use the reply button.

2) You said nothing at all. You said everything is normal. It is technical, Turkish subsystems cause delays because of testing requirements there is no malicious intent from the German side. This is not true the project was in such an advanced phase that those kinds of development tests were already %99 completed if not %100. Whatever is left can't cause a delay of more than 1 year. The reality is the sub is launched to the sea on 22 March 2021 for one year there is little progress on the project. Harbor tests failed to start on time because of the German shenanigans. It seems like this angered Erdogan and Akar and finally, a loud warning came from them to the German authorities on 30 September 2021 after 5-6 months of no progress after the launch to the sea. Now we learn that the delivery of the first sub will be "after 2023" which is a completed product laying for more than one year with little progress.

3-4) You didn't answer any of the issues I brought up. You just attacked me all you did was ad hominem. I can be a very mean person too probably you can't even approach me in real life. The reality is the first submarine has to be delivered this year but it will be delivered "after 2023". This massive delay can't be explained by excessive testing, covid, etc when the project is such an advanced phase and the delivery of the first submarine is so close (2022).

AzeriTank · Apr 8, 2022

Lool said:
Doesnt Turkey plan to produce its own AIP technology or is it too difficult?

i remember that in 2015-16 Turkey said they by 2023-24 Turkish aip system will be ready. also, Lion battery of factory will be ready tis year. if you dont produce it, nobody will sell you LION battery for submarines. STM 500 is the game changer here

Anmdt · Apr 8, 2022

TheInsider said:
1) I don't care. It is not an obligation to use the reply button.

2) You said nothing at all. You said everything is normal. It is technical, Turkish subsystems cause delays because of testing requirements there is no malicious intent from the German side. This is not true the project was in such an advanced phase that those kinds of development tests were already %99 completed if not %100. Whatever is left can't cause a delay of more than 1 year. The reality is the sub is launched to the sea on 22 March 2021 for one year there is little progress on the project. Harbor tests failed to start on time because of the German shenanigans. It seems like this angered Erdogan and Akar and finally, a loud warning came from them to the German authorities on 30 September 2021 after 5-6 months of no progress after the launch to the sea. Now we learn that the delivery of the first sub will be "after 2023" which is a completed product laying for more than one year with little progress.

3-4) You didn't answer any of the issues I brought up. You just attacked me all you did was ad hominem. I can be a very mean person too probably you can't even approach me in real life. The reality is the first submarine has to be delivered this year but it will be delivered "after 2023". This massive delay can't be explained by excessive testing, covid, etc when the project is such an advanced phase and the delivery of the first submarine is so close (2022).

I haven't replied because i am literally too busy to correct those informations lacking the technical detial, and to give correct information to a person believeing he knows everything and he knows it right, who is not intrigued by learning and correcting himself.

Saithan · Apr 9, 2022

@Anmdt some of the tenders we lost on ada class was because of the propulsion system. But why did TN opt for Gas and not diesel as well. If we were going to export it having fiesel as an option would have helped.

I’m sure you’ve mentioned it before, but it’d be nice to have it refreshed

Anmdt · Apr 9, 2022

Saithan said:
@Anmdt some of the tenders we lost on ada class was because of the propulsion system. But why did TN opt for Gas and not diesel as well. If we were going to export it having fiesel as an option would have helped.

I’m sure you’ve mentioned it before, but it’d be nice to have it refreshed

TN had a high speed requirement on Ada-Class and CODAG was the most suitable solution considering the size limitations on the ship, both fitting into beam + deck height and not occupying excessive volume, allowing designers to fit more equipments and features into the hull.

I have posted in another thread about the propulsion system on Ada-Class and how compact it is in fact, as compact as something gets it becomes rigid and less flexible in design.

Combat-Master · Apr 9, 2022

Anmdt said:
We can safely expect some export deals for this design. It runs on Diesel - Diesel unlike Ada-Class and affordable. Note the incidents where Ada-Class was not chosen for not being adaptable to Diesel-Diesel.
The secondary mast which carries the TACAN (Tactical air-navigation system) can be easily reconfigured as ESM / COMINT / SIGINT antenna.
Yes it has TACAN even for the base configuration. That enables OPV to conduct helicopter / USV operations in adverse weather conditions or at night.
Main mast supports up to Cenk-S sized Aesa radar, EA / ED systems, PIRI-IRST.
Both AKR Block- A2 spots support AKREP Block-B2.

If people spends sometime to think over embargo claims they would easily conclude the keypoint related to the AIP;

Germany is not bound to support MRO or Refueling station maintenance or technical support related to the AIP, according to the deal, they are only bound to supply AIP for all submarines of the class + refueling station. They can easily embargo the AIP by disabling MRO access and Technical support for refueling station beyond the warranty term, following delivering the subs and will render those submarines less effective than before technically converting Reis class to a Diesel-Electric submarine.

If Germany really desires to embargo this class of submarines, they would easily carry it out directly, without any breach in contract.

Regarding to the Li-Ion on submarines, we have to be quick to jump on the train before it departs. STM500 and other small submarine designs, UUVs, silent convertible - semi-submersible USVs become meaningful with Li-Ion applications. We have to launch certification and rules regarding to the Li-Ion use at sea considering the safety, storage, maintenance etc as soon as possible so that it will be possible to deploy them in 5 years.

According to this it won't be a Diesel-Diesel, But a diesel-electric. CODELOD - Which is even better!

Spanish Meteoro-class and Dutch Holland-class OPV have similar propulsion as well

Anmdt · Apr 9, 2022

Saithan said:
@Anmdt some of the tenders we lost on ada class was because of the propulsion system. But why did TN opt for Gas and not diesel as well. If we were going to export it having fiesel as an option would have helped.

I’m sure you’ve mentioned it before, but it’d be nice to have it refreshed

TN had a high speed requirement on Ada-Class and CODAG was the most suitable solution considering the size limitations on the ship, both fitting into beam + deck height and not occupying excessive volume, allowing designers to fit more equipments and features into the hull.

I have posted in another thread about the propulsion system on Ada-Class and how compact it is in fact, as compact as something gets it becomes rigid and less flexible in design.

Combat-Master said:
According to this it won't be a Diesel-Diesel, But a diesel-electric. CODELOD - Which is even better!
View attachment 42315

It is Diesel + Diesel in the end

. A portion of Diesels are directly driving the propeller, the rest is Gen-Set driving the electric Motors.

Now i wonder, are they getting CODELOD from MAN or MTU?

Marine engine applications on Naval vessels

Have found two documents published by MTU while wandering in my computer, both of these can be useful to understand how engines are selected and placed, what CODAG-CODOG-CODELAG may look like: Will elaborate by quotes and pictures from the documents.

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