TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

Unpopular opinion but I think we should accept the F-16V deal as it is with the constraints regarding Greece. F-16s are the most optimal choice technically and I think Greek lobbies that try to isolate Turkey from US by making this deal unacceptable did not think things through.

First of all, you can agree to the conditions of the US and then use the jets however you'd like. Greeks are also prohibited from militarizing the islands but nobody gives a shit. We can even take a page out of their book and claim this is due to the self-defense article from the UN Charter that overrides everything else. If anybody objects to that, they can also object to the militarization of islands.

Second, we would not actually be doing something that violates these constraints. Greeks cry about the violations primarily due to two reasons: flights between 6-10 nm and overflights over disputed islands. Flights over 6-10 nm do not violate Greek airspace and the US actually agrees with the Turkish POV here. So any complaints to the US would result in US making their view against Greek fantasies even clearer. In case of overflights over disputed islands the US will probably agree with Greeks, but Turkey might ask for negotiations on this issue and eventually ask to take the EGEAYDAAK issue to the international courts. Greeks are pretty afraid of taking this issue to court so the process will get deadlocked here. In both cases, we will have internationalized problems that Greeks desperately do not want internationalized. So, apart from the value of weapons, this purchase would give a diplomatic opportunity to us.

Even the worst case of US stopping support for F-16s would take a lot of time due to diplomatic back and forth and by that time we would have the first MMUs put in service. Not to mention that by that time TAI could support the planes on its own if it had to. As I said Greek lobbies did not think this through. They are trying to freeze any deals and make the US and Turkey fight again, so we should not play into their hands.

I will agree that weapon purchases with conditions attached are a bit undignified but they are very commonplace and this might be the last major one for Turkey, so let's get it over with.

Brokengineer said:

During tolga özbek's interview with karakuş,
Karakuş Said if they do not provide us plane, we could increase the number of ground to ground missiles that air superiority of Greeks does not have any meaning. Eventually, they are going to provide those planes. (from 9:00 it begins)

Click to expand...

Sorry but Naive and Dumb thinking -> "Eventually, they are going to provide those planes"
No usa will not give anything.
It is simple .. usa made their choice in 2012 and it is not changed at present time.
usa choose pkk, then try to fuck with internal matters of Turkiye, then embargoes, then forced EU to apply embargoes too, then kicked Turkiye out of F-35 program, Steal money of Turkiye. DAMAGE IS DONE, but usa did NOT able to WIN the WAR.

Now usa start to do other shit -> sided with greece, bring military platforms and deployed them in greece. Now removed embargo on South Cyprus. Send us High sit senator in armenia. usa have deployed in Irak, Syria.
I mean usa continue to be Brutally hostile against Turkiye.

I am trying to say that Turkiye is wining IF only KEEP Building OWN military platforms and Become more and more Independent.
Turkiye already have made NEW friends which are supporting Turkiye by increasing Turkiye influence etc.

I repeat Turkiye MUST BE doing OWN Stuff and KEEP collecting all Documents and EVEN FACTS where usa openly Reject, Embargo, Refuse, Side with Enemy, Try to push Turkiye, Blackmail etc.
On long turn usa will fall or need Turkiye on own side. Then Turkiye must Slap them Only then and Must Slap usa.
It only then will Worth more then we expect.

godel44 said:

Unpopular opinion but I think we should accept the F-16V deal as it is with the constraints regarding Greece. F-16s are the most optimal choice technically and I think Greek lobbies that try to isolate Turkey from US by making this deal unacceptable did not think things through.

First of all, you can agree to the conditions of the US and then use the jets however you'd like. Greeks are also prohibited from militarizing the islands but nobody gives a shit. We can even take a page out of their book and claim this is due to the self-defense article from the UN Charter that overrides everything else. If anybody objects to that, they can also object to the militarization of islands.

Second, we would not actually be doing something that violates these constraints. Greeks cry about the violations primarily due to two reasons: flights between 6-10 nm and overflights over disputed islands. Flights over 6-10 nm do not violate Greek airspace and the US actually agrees with the Turkish POV here. So any complaints to the US would result in US making their view against Greek fantasies even clearer. In case of overflights over disputed islands the US will probably agree with Greeks, but Turkey might ask for negotiations on this issue and eventually ask to take the EGEAYDAAK issue to the international courts. Greeks are pretty afraid of taking this issue to court so the process will get deadlocked here. In both cases, we will have internationalized problems that Greeks desperately do not want internationalized. So, apart from the value of weapons, this purchase would give a diplomatic opportunity to us.

Even the worst case of US stopping support for F-16s would take a lot of time due to diplomatic back and forth and by that time we would have the first MMUs put in service. Not to mention that by that time TAI could support the planes on its own if it had to. As I said Greek lobbies did not think this through. They are trying to freeze any deals and make the US and Turkey fight again, so we should not play into their hands.

I will agree that weapon purchases with conditions attached are a bit undignified but they are very commonplace and this might be the last major one for Turkey, so let's get it over with.

Click to expand...

i agree with this. afaik theres no solid way for them to ensure that these conditions are met. at most we'd hear some grumbling.

godel44 said:

Unpopular opinion but I think we should accept the F-16V deal as it is with the constraints regarding Greece. F-16s are the most optimal choice technically and I think Greek lobbies that try to isolate Turkey from US by making this deal unacceptable did not think things through.

First of all, you can agree to the conditions of the US and then use the jets however you'd like. Greeks are also prohibited from militarizing the islands but nobody gives a shit. We can even take a page out of their book and claim this is due to the self-defense article from the UN Charter that overrides everything else. If anybody objects to that, they can also object to the militarization of islands.

Second, we would not actually be doing something that violates these constraints. Greeks cry about the violations primarily due to two reasons: flights between 6-10 nm and overflights over disputed islands. Flights over 6-10 nm do not violate Greek airspace and the US actually agrees with the Turkish POV here. So any complaints to the US would result in US making their view against Greek fantasies even clearer. In case of overflights over disputed islands the US will probably agree with Greeks, but Turkey might ask for negotiations on this issue and eventually ask to take the EGEAYDAAK issue to the international courts. Greeks are pretty afraid of taking this issue to court so the process will get deadlocked here. In both cases, we will have internationalized problems that Greeks desperately do not want internationalized. So, apart from the value of weapons, this purchase would give a diplomatic opportunity to us.

Even the worst case of US stopping support for F-16s would take a lot of time due to diplomatic back and forth and by that time we would have the first MMUs put in service. Not to mention that by that time TAI could support the planes on its own if it had to. As I said Greek lobbies did not think this through. They are trying to freeze any deals and make the US and Turkey fight again, so we should not play into their hands.

I will agree that weapon purchases with conditions attached are a bit undignified but they are very commonplace and this might be the last major one for Turkey, so let's get it over with.

Click to expand...

I disagree
If the deal's constraints was to not use the F16V against Greece then fine. However, this is only one of the 2 conditions required for the deal to pass through; the second being Turkey's unconditional support for bothFinland amd Sweden's application to NATO

If Erdo agrees on these conditions, then he bloody deserves a death sentence

Brokengineer said:

During tolga özbek's interview with karakuş,
Karakuş Said if they do not provide us plane, we could increase the number of ground to ground missiles that air superiority of Greeks does not have any meaning. Eventually, they are going to provide those planes. (from 9:00 it begins)

Click to expand...

I am gonna admit, when I first watched this my heart skiped a beat when Mr. Karakuş mentions that Phantoms structrual life could last till 2048 (Thinking that we are going to use them till that time)

We do not have to buy warplanes from the USA. Ssb. İsmail Demir clearly said that we will cut our own belly.

Buying a plane from the USA is more harmful than buying a plane from Russia and facing embargoes.

I have no worries. My expectation is that the purchase of the F 16 will be canceled due to restrictions, Murad aesa radar + Gökdoğan, Bozdoğan missile Kızılelma and f16s will work together.

This will be enough against Greece on our planes.

When the first Mmus are ready in 2028, it may not be produced. Double-engined Kızılelma can be preferred. Or some Mmu could be produced as a deep impact drone.

Lool said:

I disagree
If the deal's constraints was to not use the F16V against Greece then fine. However, this is only one of the 2 conditions required for the deal to pass through; the second being Turkey's unconditional support for bothFinland amd Sweden's application to NATO

If Erdo agrees on these conditions, then he bloody deserves a death sentence

Click to expand...

There is no second condition in the books at the moment. It wasn't there in the House of Representatives and it's not in the amendment in the Senate AFAIK, so it most likely will not come out of the mixed committee afterwards. Individual senators might list their wet dreams of course.

According to the Google translate results, Mr I Kalin has answered questions about the purchase of 40 F16V70 planes.
He has said that although the F16 purchase is Turkey’s first choice, if not possible we will go for Tranche3A or Tranche4 Eurofighter planes. Since the Eurofighter has been losing sales ground against it’s competitors recently, the consortium may welcome a possible order from Turkey. Also as it is difficult times and sales are not coming in abundance, Turkey has a chance to have a favourable deal.

Which part did turkey take in the production of the f16 for the turkish air force? Have turkey produced or been part or producing any other aircraft such as transport aircrafts, or AEW/SIGNT?

Lool said:

I disagree
If the deal's constraints was to not use the F16V against Greece then fine. However, this is only one of the 2 conditions required for the deal to pass through; the second being Turkey's unconditional support for bothFinland amd Sweden's application to NATO

If Erdo agrees on these conditions, then he bloody deserves a death sentence

Click to expand...

Actually, the Swedish and Finnish requirement is a good idea. Türkiye should put the condition of 12 free F35 and 100 half price F16V.

These conditions should be passed in the parliament.

Knowledgeseeker said:

Which part did turkey take in the production of the f16 for the turkish air force? Have turkey produced or been part or producing any other aircraft such as transport aircrafts, or AEW/SIGNT?

Click to expand...

CASA CN-235 were made by TAI under license.

Yasar said:

Wird der Eurofighter zum lachenden Dritten?

Die Türkei buhlt in den USA weiter um die Lieferung werksneuer F-16-Kampfjets des modernsten Standards Block 70. Da man in Washington zögert, sucht man sich in Ankara aber auch nach Alternativen um. Das könnte Europa mit dem Eurofighter in die Karten spielen. Oder Russland.

www.aero.de

According to the Google translate results, Mr I Kalin has answered questions about the purchase of 40 F16V70 planes.
He has said that although the F16 purchase is Turkey’s first choice, if not possible we will go for Tranche3A or Tranche4 Eurofighter planes. Since the Eurofighter has been losing sales ground against it’s competitors recently, the consortium may welcome a possible order from Turkey. Also as it is difficult times and sales are not coming in abundance, Turkey has a chance to have a favourable deal.

Click to expand...

Can typhoon be integrated with all other TUAF assets with link16 ?

Afif said:

Can typhoon be integrated with all other TUAF assets with link16 ?

Click to expand...

Off course it is a nato standard.

Afif said:

Can typhoon be integrated with all other TUAF assets with link16 ?

Click to expand...

Turkiye have OWN system for tactical data link network which also include link16.

Why TUAF should integrate link16 to typhoon ( if it is not available ) for communication with Turkiye military platforms ?

Ecderha said:

Turkiye have OWN system for tactical data link network which also include link16.

Why TUAF should integrate link16 to typhoon ( if it is not available ) for communication with Turkiye military platforms ?

Click to expand...

With other Turkish F16 and AWACS.

I'm just making hypothetical guesses:

QEAF combat jets, fleets planning
1. Dassault Rafale - 36 (+36 optional)
2. Boeing F-15QA - 36 (+36 optional)
3. EF Typhoon T3 - 24, deliveries started this year
+ In 2020, Qatar also made a formal request to buy F-35 fighter jets from the United States

Doha’s investments will see it in time operate at least 96 advanced fighters – also including Eurofighter Typhoons – and up to 168 if further F-15 and Rafale options are exercised.

Trilateral agreements can be made through Qatar. Qatar already has a total of 72 additional options on both the Rafale and the F-15. That's a big number, even if we don't count the F-35 at all. I do not know if there is an option rights on the EF side, if there is, only this option right can also be transferred, for short delivery schedule.

Another airforce which EF deliveries continue is Kuwait.

Current planning:
1. F/A-18C - 27
2. F/A-18E/F - 28 on order
3. EF Typhoon T3 - 6 (+22 on order) (22 single-seater and 6 twin-seats)
*(Kuwait has not yet made an official request for the F-35, but interest has been confirmed by many sources.)

Both countries, but especially Qatar, are always in a position to try to maintain their relations with Turkiye on a friendly and mutually beneficial basis. Another common feature of these countries is that they have very strong air force modernization plans(Considering their size and needs) and they have high volume orders or options to NATO-standard manufacturers in the 2022-2027 period.

It is almost certain that Turkiye will present the MMU project to both Kuwait and Qatar. Also both country has interest on KE. Alternative options are ready in the current supply plans of these countries, so a formula that will protect mutual interests can be produced with these countries. In the manufacturer's side; There seems to be no problem with the UK, Italian and Spanish sides of Eurofighter GmbH. I don't know how to overcome the German barrier. Turkiye may reopen the readmission agreement trump.

Briefly,
1. Transfer of approximately 20 EF T1s decommissioned or pending decommissioning in the RAF's possession, for OCU purposes or as a grant if it will involve a partial modernization,
2. Transfer of aircrafts by a tripartite agreement involving a country that already has EF deliveries.
3. One or two additional fleet new orders for years to come.
+ Supply of large quantities of ammunition and spare parts

As silly as this may sound, I believe that it currently stands as the only way that might work. Because, first of all, it is understood that we will not have serious geopolitical disagreements with the UK, Italy and Spain.

Sweden is one of the shadow countries of the US in Europe. They even works as a subcontractor in many areas. Especially in anti-TR type operations. There are much deeper disagreements with France and they are unlikely to be resolved in a short time. Maybe if something extraordinarily scary happens for France, that can reminiscent of the strategic common ground with Turks.

Knowledgeseeker said:

Which part did turkey take in the production of the f16 for the turkish air force? Have turkey produced or been part or producing any other aircraft such as transport aircrafts, or AEW/SIGNT?

Click to expand...

Well, for the Turkish airforce ;
Under Peace Onyx-1 Program, Tusas produced 152 block 30 and block 40 jets. (First 8 of the 160 planes came directly from US)
Under peace Onyx-2,3&4 120 more planes were manufactured by Tusas.
For Egypt:
Then 46 more were built for Egyptian airforce.
That makes 318 planes that were manufactured by Tusas. Although a good deal of the work may have involved assembly line work, under this program, TAI manufactured 70% of the airframe of the F-16 aircraft including aft and center fuselages and wings.
As a result of this program, companies like Aselsan, Havelsan, Alp Havacilik have flourished.
As part of this program TEI produced the engines for the F16 planes.
Later on, block 40 and 50 planes were subjected to upgrades that brought them all to the same standard. All this work was done in house by TAI.
Also Turkey being a minor share holder of Airbus A400 program, has been producing portions of this aircraft. Having a 7% share on A400M programme, Turkish Aerospace has produced and delivered 135 aircraft shipset to Airbus Defence and Space. The total programme includes 176 A400M aircraft

Seriously Germany is the biggest obstacle for the Eurofighter.

UK, Spain and Italy wont push any roadblocks I hope. But Germany is the worst.

I think a stop gap has to be found. Overall we need to forget the F35s they are good as gone.

F35 is a strategic weapon in geopolitics. Usa is using it as a card.

When the F35 becomes obsolete or if there are better planes in the future is when their tune will change.

Unfortunately, some people in our country feel uncomfortable if an American warplane is not bought or modernized every 10 years. I'm afraid this discomfort may continue after Mmu and the Kızılelma.

What did Mr. İsmail Demir say? we solve our problems, our needs. I would prefer our money to be used to develop our own weapons.

Together with the Kızılelma plane, the rafale and the f 35 will no longer be a threat to us.

The current f16 demand is purely a political maneuver. In my opinion, foreign aircraft such as F 16, Ef 2000, Rafale, Su 35 will not be bought.

These buying stories are part of the media's own attention cycle. There's no need to go behind it.

Yasar said:

Well, for the Turkish airforce ;
Under Peace Onyx-1 Program, Tusas produced 152 block 30 and block 40 jets. (First 8 of the 160 planes came directly from US)
Under peace Onyx-2,3&4 120 more planes were manufactured by Tusas.
For Egypt:
Then 46 more were built for Egyptian airforce.
That makes 318 planes that were manufactured by Tusas. Although a good deal of the work may have involved assembly line work, under this program, TAI manufactured 70% of the airframe of the F-16 aircraft including aft and center fuselages and wings.
As a result of this program, companies like Aselsan, Havelsan, Alp Havacilik have flourished.
As part of this program TEI produced the engines for the F16 planes.
Later on, block 40 and 50 planes were subjected to upgrades that brought them all to the same standard. All this work was done in house by TAI.
Also Turkey being a minor share holder of Airbus A400 program, has been producing portions of this aircraft. Having a 7% share on A400M programme, Turkish Aerospace has produced and delivered 135 aircraft shipset to Airbus Defence and Space. The total programme includes 176 A400M aircraft

Click to expand...

Nice! Any signs that turkey would want to use its experience on manufacturing any transport aircraft similar to the A400? I read about the possible cooperation with antonov.