TR Twin-Engine HÜRJET: Could a TF6000-Derived Naval Variant Fill MUGEM's Fighter Gap?

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,112
Reactions
249 21,495
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Beyond that, more substantial thrust growth would likely require physical changes to the engine, such as an enlarged fan or additional compressor stages, which would alter the engine's external dimensions and require corresponding airframe modifications.
Sorry to be nitpicking again. But additional compressor stages will not increase thrust. It will increase overall pressure ratio and help lower fuel consumption and give better efficiency also with lower sound levels. But in turn it makes it more complex, increasing aerodynamic losses, maintenance and weight.

One other point that is worth mentioning is the fact that your suppositions on take off from a carrier are predominantly based on T/W ratio calculations.

Yes, on paper, a safe and sure take-off needs a T/W ratio of greater than 1.1:1. But with a skilift and a plane that has aerodynamically good lift and well designed airframe, it is possible to take off from ski lifts with T/W ratio as low as 0.6:1.
It is difficult to create enough lift to overcome the deficiency of T/W ratio in a short run to the skilift. But until it is tried and tested it is not written in stone. In practice however a T/W ratio of 0.8 -1.0 is needed as observed with Su33 and J15 planes. (But both these planes have less lift than should they have had delta wings.)
A delta wing plane will give the best lift. But for more load carrying with better efficiency and high manoeuvrability, swept wings are preferred.
To gain those precious seconds to attain extra thrust and speed, a special stop system can be added in front of the wheels to hold the plane in position until engines are at full AB thrust. Then releasing the plane should give more speed when taking off from the edge of the skilift.

Of course the catapult assisted take off is the ideal way. But it is neither cheap nor simple. It needs extensive hydraulic mechanisms fitted under the top surface. (EMALS is just far too expensive and really in the domain of USA only at the moment. Even the French are buying US built EMALS)
 

dBSPL

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Ambassador
Messages
2,799
Reactions
118 14,233
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Sorry to be nitpicking again. But additional compressor stages will not increase thrust. It will increase overall pressure ratio and help lower fuel consumption and give better efficiency also with lower sound levels. But in turn it makes it more complex, increasing aerodynamic losses, maintenance and weight.

One other point that is worth mentioning is the fact that your suppositions on take off from a carrier are predominantly based on T/W ratio calculations.

Yes, on paper, a safe and sure take-off needs a T/W ratio of greater than 1.1:1. But with a skilift and a plane that has aerodynamically good lift and well designed airframe, it is possible to take off from ski lifts with T/W ratio as low as 0.6:1.
It is difficult to create enough lift to overcome the deficiency of T/W ratio in a short run to the skilift. But until it is tried and tested it is not written in stone. In practice however a T/W ratio of 0.8 -1.0 is needed as observed with Su33 and J15 planes. (But both these planes have less lift than should they have had delta wings.)
A delta wing plane will give the best lift. But for more load carrying with better efficiency and high manoeuvrability, swept wings are preferred.
To gain those precious seconds to attain extra thrust and speed, a special stop system can be added in front of the wheels to hold the plane in position until engines are at full AB thrust. Then releasing the plane should give more speed when taking off from the edge of the skilift.

Of course the catapult assisted take off is the ideal way. But it is neither cheap nor simple. It needs extensive hydraulic mechanisms fitted under the top surface. (EMALS is just far too expensive and really in the domain of USA only at the moment. Even the French are buying US built EMALS)
You are right on the compressor stages. The article referenced additional stages as a potential avenue for thrust growth, but in fairness it did not account for the engineering costs that come with it: increased aerodynamic losses, added weight, and greater mechanical complexity. These factors can offset or even negate the efficiency gains. The honest framing is that compressor refinement contributes to SFC improvement and thermal efficiency rather than direct thrust increase, and thrust growth ultimately depends on increased mass flow and higher TIT.

Your point on ski-jump T/W is valuable and actually reinforces the feasibility case. The article's analysis was deliberately conservative in treating T/W thresholds, but you are correct that real-world STOBAR operations depend on the interplay between T/W, wing lift characteristics, ramp angle, and launch technique, not on T/W alone. The Su-33 and J-15 both operate from ski-jump carriers at T/W ratios in the range you describe, and both are substantially heavier aircraft with higher wing loading than HÜRJET-X. With its low wing loading around the 250 kg/m2 range, HÜRJET-X generates usable lift at lower speeds than either of those types, which should translate to a more forgiving ramp departure even at the lower end of the T/W band.

The holdback-and-release system you mention is an excellent practical point that the article did not address. Allowing the aircraft to spool to full afterburner against a holdback before release maximises the speed achieved during the deck run to the ramp, which directly improves the energy state at ramp exit. This is a ship-side infrastructure addition rather than an aircraft modification, but it should be factored into the STOBAR launch performance assessment as a standard operational enabler. I have added a note on this to the navalization section.

On CATOBAR and EMALS, agreed. MUGEM's STOBAR-first approach with CATOBAR provisions for the future is the pragmatic path, and the cost and complexity of catapult systems, whether steam or electromagnetic, is precisely why the aircraft must be designed to work without one in its initial configuration.

Stepping back from the specifics, I think the discussion across this thread has sharpened the study's conclusions rather than undermined them. The core proposition, that two TF10000 engines at their published 10,000 lbf rating can power a navalized twin-engine HÜRJET derivative into operationally meaningful territory, has held up through the scrutiny. The T/W margins are tight at baseline, but as you here have pointed out, real-world STOBAR performance depends on the full aerodynamic picture, not just the thrust-to-weight number in isolation. HÜRJET-X's low wing loading works in its favour in ways that the raw T/W figures alone do not capture.

What has also become clear is that the TF10000 is not a distant prospect. It is an engine programme already in advanced development, building on a core that TEI has been maturing through the TF6000. This means the longest lead-time element in the concept, the propulsion system, is not starting from zero. With disciplined programme management and parallel airframe development leveraging the HÜRJET knowledge base, the timeline to place this aircraft on MUGEM's deck, while tight, is not out of reach.

From this point, the question shifts from engineering feasibility to risk management and institutional will. The physics do not prohibit this aircraft. The industrial base, stretched as it is, has a viable path to deliver it. The ship it would fly from is already under construction. What remains is the decision to commit, with full awareness of the margins, the trade-offs, and the risks that this thread has done an honest job of mapping out.
 

dBSPL

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Ambassador
Messages
2,799
Reactions
118 14,233
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Secondary topics for this thread:

Part 1 - Common Core, TF6000 Engine Family Across MUGEM's Jet Platforms


tf10.PNG


One dimension of the MUGEM air wing discussion that deserves separate attention is propulsion logistics. Carrier aviation is as much a maintenance and supply chain problem as it is a flying problem. Every distinct engine type aboard a carrier means a separate spare parts inventory, separate tooling, separate technical documentation, and separate training for the maintenance crews. On a ship with finite storage and finite personnel, engine diversity is a cost multiplier.
What makes MUGEM's planned air wing unusual is the degree to which its jet-powered platforms converge on a single gas generator core. As things stand on the current roadmaps of TEI, TUSAŞ, and Baykar:

  • ANKA-3 is confirmed to transition from its Ukrainian AI-25TLT prototype engine to the TEI TF6000 at 6,000 lbf dry thrust.
  • KIZILELMA subsonic variants will receive the TF6000 in the same dry configuration, with deliveries targeted from 2027 or 2028. Supersonic variants will use the TF10000 afterburning derivative at 10,000 lbf, with first afterburner tests planned after that.
  • HÜRJET-X, as proposed in this study, would carry two TF10000 units.
  • The T-925 heavy utility helicopter and T-929 ATAK-II are planned to receive a 3,000 hp class turboshaft derived from the same TF6000 gas generator core, replacing their Ukrainian Motor Sich engines.

The only MUGEM-based platforms outside this family would be the TB3, which uses turboprop propulsion in a different power class, and the T625 GÖKBEY light utulity helicopter with its dedicated TS1400 turboshaft.

If this convergence materialises as planned, the ship's jet engine maintenance shop would work with one core architecture across its entire fast jet and UCAV fleet. Turbine blades, combustor liners, compressor components, and bearing assemblies share commonality across TF6000 and TF10000 variants because the gas generator section is fundamentally the same hardware. Technicians trained on TF6000 core maintenance can service ANKA-3, KIZILELMA, and the core sections of HÜRJET-X's engines with overlapping knowledge. The turboshaft variant for the helicopters shares the same hot section, extending this commonality to the rotary wing.

This carries tangible operational value for a navy establishing carrier aviation for the first time. Training a maintenance workforce from scratch is faster when the curriculum centres on one core engine rather than three or four unrelated types. Spare parts forecasting is simpler. Cannibalisation across platforms, borrowing a serviceable module from one aircraft type to keep another flying, becomes possible in ways it would not be with unrelated engines. None of this eliminates the complexity of carrier maintenance, but it reduces the logistics tail meaningfully.

A caveat is warranted. This commonality exists on roadmaps today. The TF6000 is still maturing, the TF10000 has not yet completed afterburner testing, and the turboshaft derivative is in development. If any of these programmes encounter delays or performance shortfalls, the convergence timeline shifts. The commonality advantage is real but contingent on TEI delivering across all variants within a compressed timeframe. That is a demanding ask for an organisation building its first-generation military turbofan. Furthermore, the TF-35000 project, the main ultimate goal – a top-class main combat jet engine – has been completely excluded from the discussion in this stage.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
5,463
Reactions
15 8,502
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
What if we use engine thrust reversal on our navy jets and free them from arrestors and put them on the Anadolu and its foreign classmates. Sounds crazy but would be groundbreaking if we can pull it off.


Tornado aircraft landing with reverse thrust.
The Panavia Tornado was equipped with thrust reversers which allowed it to operate from 900m runways, for take-off, with a landing run of 370m.

The Saab 37 Viggen (retired in November 2005) was equipped with reverse thrust for operation from 500 m landing strips, such as straight sections of Swedish roads which doubled as wartime runways.
 
Last edited:

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,112
Reactions
249 21,495
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
We need to ask ourselves ; why thrust reversers are not used on any fighter jets?

Only tornado and viggen has utilised it to date with some success.

Most important parameter for a fighter jet is weight control. To have a really heavy thrust reverser mechanism that you will only use for 30 seconds is not very clever. It is also a mechanism that hinders smooth operation of nozzle causing problems with supersonic speeds. Such moving parts also become nightmare of maintenance teams.

Besides, when you have an established and proven arrester cable system, why bother?
Especially to use it on a non proven platform like a carrier!!
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,112
Reactions
249 21,495
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Secondary topics for this thread:

Part 1 - Common Core, TF6000 Engine Family Across MUGEM's Jet Platforms


View attachment 80608

One dimension of the MUGEM air wing discussion that deserves separate attention is propulsion logistics. Carrier aviation is as much a maintenance and supply chain problem as it is a flying problem. Every distinct engine type aboard a carrier means a separate spare parts inventory, separate tooling, separate technical documentation, and separate training for the maintenance crews. On a ship with finite storage and finite personnel, engine diversity is a cost multiplier.
What makes MUGEM's planned air wing unusual is the degree to which its jet-powered platforms converge on a single gas generator core. As things stand on the current roadmaps of TEI, TUSAŞ, and Baykar:

  • ANKA-3 is confirmed to transition from its Ukrainian AI-25TLT prototype engine to the TEI TF6000 at 6,000 lbf dry thrust.
  • KIZILELMA subsonic variants will receive the TF6000 in the same dry configuration, with deliveries targeted from 2027 or 2028. Supersonic variants will use the TF10000 afterburning derivative at 10,000 lbf, with first afterburner tests planned after that.
  • HÜRJET-X, as proposed in this study, would carry two TF10000 units.
  • The T-925 heavy utility helicopter and T-929 ATAK-II are planned to receive a 3,000 hp class turboshaft derived from the same TF6000 gas generator core, replacing their Ukrainian Motor Sich engines.

The only MUGEM-based platforms outside this family would be the TB3, which uses turboprop propulsion in a different power class, and the T625 GÖKBEY light utulity helicopter with its dedicated TS1400 turboshaft.

If this convergence materialises as planned, the ship's jet engine maintenance shop would work with one core architecture across its entire fast jet and UCAV fleet. Turbine blades, combustor liners, compressor components, and bearing assemblies share commonality across TF6000 and TF10000 variants because the gas generator section is fundamentally the same hardware. Technicians trained on TF6000 core maintenance can service ANKA-3, KIZILELMA, and the core sections of HÜRJET-X's engines with overlapping knowledge. The turboshaft variant for the helicopters shares the same hot section, extending this commonality to the rotary wing.

This carries tangible operational value for a navy establishing carrier aviation for the first time. Training a maintenance workforce from scratch is faster when the curriculum centres on one core engine rather than three or four unrelated types. Spare parts forecasting is simpler. Cannibalisation across platforms, borrowing a serviceable module from one aircraft type to keep another flying, becomes possible in ways it would not be with unrelated engines. None of this eliminates the complexity of carrier maintenance, but it reduces the logistics tail meaningfully.

A caveat is warranted. This commonality exists on roadmaps today. The TF6000 is still maturing, the TF10000 has not yet completed afterburner testing, and the turboshaft derivative is in development. If any of these programmes encounter delays or performance shortfalls, the convergence timeline shifts. The commonality advantage is real but contingent on TEI delivering across all variants within a compressed timeframe. That is a demanding ask for an organisation building its first-generation military turbofan. Furthermore, the TF-35000 project, the main ultimate goal – a top-class main combat jet engine – has been completely excluded from the discussion in this stage.
One point that has not been stressed on is the fact that all parts of the engine will have to be navalised. As sea air is sucked in to the engine most parts inside the engine will be subjected to salty water vapour.

Another point that comes to mind is the use of TF10000 for Anka-3 too.
if heavy loads are to be incorporated, an afterburner assisted take off will help Anka-3 to take off more easily.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
5,463
Reactions
15 8,502
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
In the Wikipedia entry it says passenger planes have thrust reversers as operators want to relieve brakes from excessive wear and for when the runway is slippery.

TB3 can operate from the Anadolu becuse it doesn't need arresting cables.

It takes some guts to try to make it, but the rewards would be huge.
 
Last edited:

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,112
Reactions
249 21,495
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
You don’t need Wikipedia to know the necessity and when the of reverse thrusters on passenger planes are used as they land. Even on large jet liners, on dry and long runways it is preferred NOT to use reverse thrusters due to heavy engine wear. But on short and wet runways it is preferable to use them to help stop.

TB3 is a 1.5 ton UCAV with an approach speed to TCG Anadolu between 50 to 70 knots. Stress levels on landing gears and braking systems can be accommodated.

A light jet fighter’s weight like Hurjet is over 10- 12 tons and it would have an approach speed to a carrier between 120 to 145 knots. By the time it is activated plane may have travelled too far on the carrier’s short runway. Also the heavy duty brakes on planes may be very efficient. But on a wet landing reverse thrusters and brakes are not going to be enough. A sure way to stop any plane that is so heavy and fast and carrying such high energy and momentum (mass x velocity) is an arrester wire. Besides it is kinder on engines.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
5,463
Reactions
15 8,502
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
You don’t need Wikipedia to know the necessity and when the of reverse thrusters on passenger planes are used as they land. Even on large jet liners, on dry and long runways it is preferred NOT to use reverse thrusters due to heavy engine wear. But on short and wet runways it is preferable to use them to help stop.

TB3 is a 1.5 ton UCAV with an approach speed to TCG Anadolu between 50 to 70 knots. Stress levels on landing gears and braking systems can be accommodated.

A light jet fighter’s weight like Hurjet is over 10- 12 tons and it would have an approach speed to a carrier between 120 to 145 knots. By the time it is activated plane may have travelled too far on the carrier’s short runway. Also the heavy duty brakes on planes may be very efficient. But on a wet landing reverse thrusters and brakes are not going to be enough. A sure way to stop any plane that is so heavy and fast and carrying such high energy and momentum (mass x velocity) is an arrester wire. Besides it is kinder on engines.
They even use reverse thrusters in the air to slow down. Accepting higher wear on landing gears and the engine itself you can probably land using a bigger portion of the runway. Kızılelma is 8.5 ton and can make use of automation to fine tune the landing process. Once done nicely this can turn an LHD into an aircraft carrier with no additional infrastructure. It can start with unmanned planes and once matured can be applied to manned planes. A disrupting technology can come out if every element is tuned nicely.

With fine tuning they can even land the Starship which was unimaginable a few years ago.
 

boredaf

Experienced member
Messages
2,179
Solutions
1
Reactions
42 6,435
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
They even use reverse thrusters in the air to slow down.
You cannot slow down "in the air" while approaching a carrier more than a certain speed because you risk stalling. And it doesn't matter whether it is a manned or unmanned plane, aircrafts physical attributes decide stall speed. Not to mention planes actually speed up while using tailhooks because they have to be able to take off right away if they miss the cable.

Once done nicely this can turn an LHD into an aircraft carrier with no additional infrastructure.
In your bloody dreams, math is more or less exact here. Obviously, wind speed, the surface etc changes things a bit but trying to stop 8.5 tons without a cable or some other means ends with KE in the water.
 

uçuyorum

Contributor
Messages
1,214
Reactions
15 1,971
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
You cannot slow down "in the air" while approaching a carrier more than a certain speed because you risk stalling. And it doesn't matter whether it is a manned or unmanned plane, aircrafts physical attributes decide stall speed. Not to mention planes actually speed up while using tailhooks because they have to be able to take off right away if they miss the cable.


In your bloody dreams, math is more or less exact here. Obviously, wind speed, the surface etc changes things a bit but trying to stop 8.5 tons without a cable or some other means ends with KE in the water.
You cannot slow down "in the air" while approaching a carrier more than a certain speed because you risk stalling. And it doesn't matter whether it is a manned or unmanned plane, aircrafts physical attributes decide stall speed. Not to mention planes actually speed up while using tailhooks because they have to be able to take off right away if they miss the cable.


In your bloody dreams, math is more or less exact here. Obviously, wind speed, the surface etc changes things a bit but trying to stop 8.5 tons without a cable or some other means ends with KE in the water.
Ke in the water is best case scenario. Worst case it crashes into deck or worse the control tower, killing command, burning the deck and having to tow the lhd for 3-5 years of repairs without the angled deck.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
5,463
Reactions
15 8,502
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Ke in the water is best case scenario. Worst case it crashes into deck or worse the control tower, killing command, burning the deck and having to tow the lhd for 3-5 years of repairs without the angled deck.
The worst case scenario is you don't have airpower on your LHD
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,112
Reactions
249 21,495
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
@Zafer , why try to prove a point that is a non starter. Please take the logical route.

Why do jet fighters, especially those operating from a carrier, do not use reverse thrusters?

1. Weight is prime asset on a carrier based jet. Reverse thrusters weigh a lot.

2. Jet fighters need to be agile. Reverse thrusters impede with agility.

3. Most importantly, directing large amounts of jet exhaust forward or sideways during a landing kicks up loose debris, salt, and loose hardware from the carrier deck. This foreign matter can easily be sucked into the engine intakes, causing catastrophic and expensive mechanical damage. Also on a crowded flight deck, blasting hot exhaust sideways or forwards at high power settings endangers ground crews and can damage other aircraft or support equipment.

4. Only time reverse thrusters are used during flight is for a handful of large military transport planes like globemaster C17 or similar that are specifically designed to accommodate reverse thrusting during flight to avoid ground fire during a quick landing to increase their descent speed. It is totally forbidden to use them on commercial jets during flight as deploying them mid-flight would cause severe turbulence, a disastrous loss of lift, and could result in structural failure of the wings or engine pylons.

“Cable and hook” set up is king in aircraft landing on carriers.

PS. I would be vary with the TB3 too. Even though Baykar has done a great job with the TB3, an unexpected sidewind or a non functioning brake could easily swing the plane towards stationary equipment and other platforms on the deck causing havoc.
A hook on the plane with 3 or 4 wires specially tensioned on the deck and ready to catch the plane is a much safer method.
 
Last edited:

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
5,463
Reactions
15 8,502
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
@Zafer , why try to prove a point that is a non starter. Please take the logical route.

Why do jet fighters, especially those operating from a carrier, do not use reverse thrusters?

1. Weight is prime asset on a carrier based jet. Reverse thrusters weigh a lot.

2. Jet fighters need to be agile. Reverse thrusters impede with agility.

3. Most importantly, directing large amounts of jet exhaust forward or sideways during a landing kicks up loose debris, salt, and loose hardware from the carrier deck. This foreign matter can easily be sucked into the engine intakes, causing catastrophic and expensive mechanical damage. Also on a crowded flight deck, blasting hot exhaust sideways or forwards at high power settings endangers ground crews and can damage other aircraft or support equipment.

4. Only time reverse thrusters are used during flight is for a handful of large military transport planes like globemaster C17 or similar that are specifically designed to accommodate reverse thrusting during flight to avoid ground fire during a quick landing to increase their descent speed. It is totally forbidden to use them on commercial jets during flight as deploying them mid-flight would cause severe turbulence, a disastrous loss of lift, and could result in structural failure of the wings or engine pylons.

“Cable and hook” set up is king in aircraft landing on carriers.

PS. I would be vary with the TB3 too. Even though Baykar has done a great job with the TB3, an unexpected sidewind or a non functioning brake could easily swing the plane towards stationary equipment and other platforms on the deck causing havoc.
A hook on the plane with 3 or 4 wires specially tensioned on the deck and ready to catch the plane is a much safer method.

You don't have to look at what the US is doing, they chose to do what others will not be able to afford to do and have superiority to everyone. Heck they scrapped VTOL aircraft to have the huge carriers they made instead, otherwise they were to have VTOL fighters on smaller ships and not have the dozen carriers they have now, and the 40 trillion dollar debt they piled along with them.
  • Jet fighters used to need to be agile which is no more, UCAV particularly have nothing to fear
  • Reverse thrusters weight some but ditches the arresting hook weight and probably some structural elements too
  • You are making the plane and the engine now, you can design around reverse thrust
  • Trust reversers may even double as thrust vectoring if you design around it
  • You can clear the deck when a plane is landing which can include personnel taking cover in safe locations, and clean the deck from debris as they do now
  • You are getting rid of dangerous arresting cables altogether
There is nothing logical about old school, it is simply old school meant to be hard to achieve thus make a barrier to entry for newcomers
If you can make this happen you change the world
 
Last edited:

dBSPL

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Ambassador
Messages
2,799
Reactions
118 14,233
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Secondary topics for this thread:
Part - 2 MUGEM 2032-2036 :Air Wing Composition, Capacity, and the Three-Layer Force


With the platforms and their propulsion established, the practical question is how many of them fit on a 60,000-tonne carrier and how they come together operationally.

MUGEM's official capacity is stated at 50 aircraft: 30 in the hangar and 20 on the flight deck. But this figure deserves closer examination, because capacity on a carrier is not a fixed number. It is a function of the aircraft mix. A carrier air wing composed entirely of 25-tonne fighters with 13-metre folded wingspans will fit fewer airframes than one composed of 12-tonne fighters, 7-tonne UCAVs, and compact tactical UAVs. The platforms planned for MUGEM are, across the board, smaller than the aircraft that define Western carrier air wing capacity figures.

Some approximate footprint arithmetic illustrates the point. The base HÜRJET has a wingspan of 9.5 metres, scaling to approximately 10.5 to 11 metres for HÜRJET-X. With outer wing panels folded upward at roughly 67 percent of the semi-span, consistent with the fold ratios seen on the F/A-18E/F and F-35C, the parked width reduces to approximately 7 to 7.5 metres:
  • HÜRJET-X (folded): approximately 15.5m × 7.3m, roughly 113 m2 per aircraft
  • KIZILELMA (folded, estimated at similar fold ratio): approximately 14.7m × 6.8m, roughly 100 m2
  • ANKA-3 variants (folded, estimated for naval derivatives): approximately 8.9m × 8m, roughly 71 m2. The flying wing architecture makes wing folding structurally more complex, and the folded width may be wider than conventional configurations
  • TB3 (folded): approximately 8.35m × 5.3m, roughly 44 m2
  • Medium helicopter (folded rotor and tail): approximately 16m × 4.5m, roughly 72 m2
For comparison, an F-35C occupies approximately 15.7m × 9.1m folded, roughly 143 m2 per aircraft. The MUGEM platform mix averages 25 to 40 percent less footprint per airframe than a current Western carrier fighter. A conservative estimate suggests that MUGEM, designed around the 50-aircraft baseline, could accommodate approximately 10 percent more airframes with this compact platform mix, placing the practical operating ceiling in the mid-50s while still preserving maintenance corridors, aircraft movement lanes, and operational deck area for launch and recovery.

Air wing composition at full operational capability: A balanced air wing exploiting this capacity might distribute as follows:
  • 12-14 HÜRJET-X naval fighters, constituting a full squadron. Manned backbone, MUM-T command nodes, fleet air defence, BVR engagement authority.
  • 10-14 KIZILELMA in a mix of TF6000 subsonic and TF10000 supersonic variants. Primary unmanned combat mass for air-to-air intercept, maritime strike, and close air support.
  • 8-14 ANKA-3 family variants. This number includes the baseline strike and ISR configuration as well as two specialized derivatives discussed below: an AEW variant and a tanker variant.
  • 6-8 helicopters of various types. Anti-submarine warfare, search and rescue, utility transport, vertical replenishment.
  • 6-10 TB3. Maritime patrol, wide-area surveillance, anti-submarine sensor deployment, light precision strike.
  • SüperŞimşek inventory stored in the ship's magazine, not counted against deck or hangar capacity. Deployed as expendable tactical assets via ANKA-3 air launch.
This places the total between 44 and 60 airframes depending on the specific mission configuration, with the nominal operating figure around 50-52 and a dense-pack arrangement reaching the mid-50s and may be up to 60.

Filling two critical gaps: early warning and tanking. No carrier air wing functions effectively without airborne early warning and refueling capability. MUGEM's STOBAR configuration and its emphasis on unmanned platforms create both a challenge and an opportunity in addressing these roles.

For airborne early warning, conventional solutions are constrained. A fixed-wing AEW platform in the E-2 Hawkeye class, weighing approximately 26 tonnes, requires catapult launch and is incompatible with STOBAR operations. Helicopter-based AEW, similar to the Royal Navy's Merlin Crowsnest or the Russian Ka-31, is a workable near-term option using one of the embarked helicopter types fitted with a surveillance radar package. But ANKA-3's flying wing architecture opens a more ambitious possibility. The large, flat wing surfaces of a flying wing can host conformal smart skin antenna arrays with GaN T/R modules embedded directly into the wing structure and leading edges. This distributed aperture approach, believed to be employed on platforms such as the Northrop Grumman RQ-180, provides wide-area radar coverage without the external rotodome that imposes aerodynamic penalties and a massive radar signature on conventional AEW aircraft. An ANKA-3 AEW variant combining conformal sensor arrays with the platform's 10-hour endurance and 40,000-foot ceiling would offer persistent early warning coverage that no helicopter-based solution can match in altitude, time on station, or survivability. Two such aircraft, rotating on station, could maintain continuous high-altitude radar surveillance around the carrier group. ASELSAN's existing GaN T/R module production capability, developed for KAAN's radar, provides the sensor technology foundation for this application.

For airborne refueling, the flying wing form factor offers a structural advantage that deserves consideration. The wing volume of a flying wing design provides substantial internal space that can be dedicated to fuel carriage, a principle demonstrated at scale by the B-2 Spirit's enormous internal fuel capacity. An enlarged ANKA tanker variant, powered by the TF10000 for the thrust needed at heavy tanker weights during ski-jump departure and the speed to pace HÜRJET-X during the refueling bracket, could carry and transfer meaningfully more fuel per sortie than a conventional airframe of similar gross weight. Two to three such aircraft in the air wing would directly address the STOBAR fuel-load constraint identified in the main article: HÜRJET-X launches at sixty-five to seventy-five percent fuel, climbs to altitude, and receives fuel from an unmanned flying wing tanker that launched separately. The tanker, being unmanned, requires no crew rest and can fly multiple refueling sorties per day. This concept parallels the US Navy's MQ-25 Stingray programme, which recognized that an unmanned carrier-based tanker is the most efficient way to extend the combat radius of the manned fighters in the air wing.

Both of these variants are speculative. Neither appears on any published roadmap. But the airframe, the engine, the sensor technology, and the datalink architecture required to develop them are all in active development for other applications. The question is whether the operational requirement is recognized early enough to initiate these derivatives in parallel with the baseline platforms.

Timeline: what arrives when. Phase 1, approximately 2032-2033, coincides with MUGEM's commissioning. The platforms available for the flight deck at this stage are:
  • TB3 (and Baykar's derivative tactical family over TBs): TB3 already operational from TCG Anadolu, transition to MUGEM is straightforward. Maritime patrol, ISR, anti-submarine sensor deployment, light strike.
  • KIZILELMA with TF6000: subsonic, 0.9 Mach max, 926 km mission radius, 3-plus hour endurance. Air-to-air and air-to-ground capable. Likely operational by 2030 with several years of maturity by the time MUGEM commissions.
  • ANKA-3 with TF6000: stealth UCAV, 10-hour endurance, 1,075 km air-to-air mission radius, internal weapons bays with 1,500+ kg capacity across two stations. Likely operational by 2030-31.
  • Helicopter AEW: interim early warning using a radar-equipped naval helicopter. Limited in altitude and endurance compared to the ANKA-3 AEW concept but available sooner.
  • HÜRJET-X: not yet available. If the programme launches in 2026-2027, first flight is realistic in the 2031-2032 window. STOBAR qualification and operational clearance would follow, placing initial operating capability at 2034-2035.
MUGEM's first two to three years of operations will therefore be unmanned-heavy. This is not an empty flight deck. It is a functional air wing with strike, ISR, and patrol capability. But it lacks a manned fighter for the MUM-T command role and for decision authority in complex, ambiguous threat scenarios. Land-based manned fighters can provide partial coverage during this bridging period if required.

Phase 2, approximately 2034-2036, brings HÜRJET-X and the specialized ANKA variants onto the flight deck. The full three-layer force structure activates.

The three-layer force in operation. The first layer is manned command. HÜRJET-X pairs, each with a pilot and weapon systems officer in the tandem cockpit, provide human decision authority, adaptive tactical judgment, and legal accountability for weapons release. Through ASELSAN's IVDL datalink, each crew can direct multiple unmanned platforms simultaneously.

The second layer is autonomous combat. KIZILELMA, particularly in its TF10000 supersonic variant, pushes forward as an air-to-air interceptor and strike platform, carrying BVR missiles and feeding sensor data back to the network. ANKA-3 provides persistent deep coverage with its stealth profile and 10-hour loiter, delivering precision strike from internal weapons bays. The AEW variant maintains the high-altitude radar picture. The tanker variant keeps the manned fighters fueled. Baykar has already demonstrated autonomous formation flight and cooperative behaviour on KIZILELMA prototypes, and the IVDL infrastructure that networks these platforms has been tested.

The third layer is the expendable screen. ANKA-3 carries SüperŞimşek tactical UAVs on its wing pylons and releases them in flight. Each SüperŞimşek is a 200 kg platform cruising at 0.85 Mach with 900 km range and 80 minutes endurance. Its three mission profiles cover EW jamming to suppress adversary radar systems, radar and IR signature augmentation to present a fighter-sized decoy drawing missile fire away from actual combat aircraft, and kamikaze strike with a 35 kg GNSS-guided warhead against high-value targets such as radar emitters or command nodes. Six ANKA-3s carrying two SüperŞimşek each generate eighteen platforms from six deck spots, all networked through IVDL and directed from HÜRJET-X cockpits.

Operational scenarios:

- Fleet air defence:
four HÜRJET-X on station in two pairs, each pair managing four KIZILELMA through MUM-T. Two ANKA-3s loitering at depth, one in AEW configuration providing the high-altitude radar picture, one in strike configuration with SüperŞimşek deployed forward in decoy and EW roles. Total airborne force: four manned fighters, eight armed UCAVs, two stealth platforms, and four expendable tactical drones. Eighteen combat-relevant platforms generated from fourteen deck spots, directed from four tandem cockpits.

- Strike against a defended coastal target: two ANKA-3s lead with SüperŞimşek in SEAD and kamikaze configuration to degrade air defences. Four KIZILELMA follow with precision munitions. Two HÜRJET-X command the package from standoff, with a second pair maintaining air cover. The ANKA-3 AEW variant provides overwatch and targeting data. An ANKA tanker orbits behind the formation to recover HÜRJET-X fighters with post-mission fuel. The entire kill chain runs on indigenous platforms, indigenous engines, and an indigenous datalink.

- Sortie generation:
The lighter platform mix produces a structural advantage in sustained operations. HÜRJET-X at 12 tonnes and KIZILELMA at under 7 tonnes are fast-turnaround aircraft compared to 25-tonne class fighters. Fuel loads are smaller, weapons loads are lighter, and the common TF6000-family engine enables cross-servicing between platform types. A carrier with twelve to fourteen HÜRJET-X fighters can sustain continuous four-aircraft combat air patrols with manageable crew rotation, a coverage level that would require twenty or more heavy fighters to achieve at comparable turnaround cycles. The unmanned platforms, with no crew rest requirements and simpler servicing, can maintain even higher sortie tempo.

Caveats: The MUM-T architecture depends on IVDL datalink resilience in contested electromagnetic environments. The SüperŞimşek layer depends on AI-driven swarm autonomy software reaching operational maturity. ANKA-3 and KIZILELMA naval variants need wing-fold mechanisms not yet publicly confirmed. The ANKA-3 AEW and tanker derivatives are speculative concepts without a published programme. HÜRJET-X itself remains a concept under discussion. None of these platforms should be taken as certainties.

But the building blocks are tangible. Every baseline platform named here is either flying, in flight test, or in funded development. The engine family is on TEI's roadmap with test milestones in the near term. The datalink has been demonstrated and the autonomous formation capability has been tested. The gap between where these programmes stand today and the air wing described above is not a technological chasm. It is a set of engineering tasks, integration challenges, and programme decisions. Whether they are undertaken is a question of strategic priority. What this discussion attempts to show is what becomes possible if they are.



Conclusion:

There is a doctrinal thread running through this air wing concept that predates carrier aviation by centuries. Naval strategists have long debated the trade-off between fewer heavy, individually superior platforms and larger numbers of lighter, agile ones. The Mediterranean naval tradition that Turkiye inherits understood this calculus well: lighter, faster vessels that could operate in conditions where heavier adversaries could not, fielded in sufficient numbers to create tactical options that no single powerful ship could counter alone. The MUGEM air wing, built around a mix of affordable manned fighters, networked unmanned combat vehicles, and expendable tactical drones, reflects a modern expression of the same principle. It does not attempt to match potential adversaries platform-for-platform in individual capability. It aims to present them with a distributed, layered, and numerically complex problem that cannot be solved by engaging any single node. Whether this approach proves sound in practice will depend on execution, technology maturation, and the quality of the doctrine built around it. But as a strategic concept, it has deeper roots than the platforms that carry it.
 
Last edited:

dBSPL

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Ambassador
Messages
2,799
Reactions
118 14,233
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Part 3 - HÜRJET-X on Land: The Case for a Single-Platform, Dual-Role Fighter

ChatGPT Image 23 May 2026 20_59_41.png


1. One Aircraft, Two Missions

The previous posts in this thread examined HÜRJET-X as a naval fighter for MUGEM. But a question that kept coming up in the background was whether the same aircraft, or something very close to it, could also serve as a land-based light combat aircraft for the Turkiye Air Force.

The instinct behind this question is industrial rather than tactical. If HÜRJET-X is developed exclusively as a naval platform, the production run is small, probably around 20 aircraft for the Navy, and the unit cost stays high. A separate land-based LCA variant would require its own development cycle, its own certification, its own integration programme, consuming TUSAŞ engineering bandwidth that is already stretched across KAAN, ANKA-3, and multiple other concurrent programmes. The more rational approach is to ask whether the naval version can do double duty, or whether a minimal set of modular changes can produce a land variant from the same production line without a separate development programme.

This is not a novel idea. The Royal Australian Air Force operated the F/A-18 Hornet, a carrier-designed fighter, from land bases for over three decades. Australia never intended to put the aircraft on a ship. It bought a naval fighter because the F/A-18 offered twin-engine safety, a robust airframe, and excellent sensors at a competitive price. The reinforced landing gear designed for carrier landings turned out to be an asset on Australian runways that were not always in perfect condition. The Australians accepted the modest weight penalty of navalization as the cost of getting a proven, tough airframe. The precedent suggests that a navalized fighter operating from land is not a compromise but a legitimate procurement strategy, provided the weight penalties are understood and accepted.

2. Cockpit and Wing: Where the Variants Diverge

If HÜRJET-X is to serve both naval and air force customers, the question is where the two versions differ and where they stay identical.

The cockpit is the first divergence point. The naval version uses a tandem cockpit: the pilot flies, the weapon systems officer manages MUM-T and sensor coordination. For carrier operations, this crew division makes sense because the workload of carrier approach, landing, and simultaneous drone management is genuinely high. But many air forces, including Turkiye's, would want a single-seat variant for the combat role. Fewer crew means more aircraft per available pilot pool, and the single-seat fighter has historically been the default preference for air superiority and multirole missions.

The concern that a single-seat version loses MUM-T capability is valid but overstated. KAAN is being developed as a single-seat fighter with full MUM-T authority over unmanned wingmen. The autonomous management software and the IVDL datalink architecture being built for KAAN are designed from the ground up for single-pilot operation. There is no reason this same software cannot be adapted for HÜRJET-X. The tandem cockpit makes MUM-T easier in the near term, while autonomous systems are still maturing. The single-seat version relies more heavily on that autonomy. But both paths converge as the software improves, and the single-seat configuration will eventually be the standard for MUM-T across all Turkiye's combat platforms.

A production approach that offers both A and B variants, single-seat and tandem, from the same line is standard practice. The forward fuselage section differs between the two, but the mid-fuselage, aft fuselage, wings, engines, landing gear, and avionics architecture remain common. The tandem version serves the Navy and potentially export customers who want a trainer-fighter hybrid. The single-seat version serves the Air Force and export customers who want a pure combat platform.

The wing is the second divergence point. The naval version requires folding wings for carrier hangar compatibility. The land-based version does not. A fixed, single-piece wing is structurally simpler, lighter, and stronger than a folding wing because it eliminates the fold joint, the hydraulic actuators, the locking mechanisms, and the associated wiring and inspection requirements. The weight saving from removing the fold mechanism is estimated at 130 to 200 kilograms. This is not a dramatic figure in isolation, but combined with other navalization items that the land version does not need, the total weight reduction adds up.

Removing the arresting hook and its structural framework saves an estimated 50 to 70 kilograms. Reducing the corrosion protection package from full maritime specification to standard land-based treatment saves another up to 50 kilograms. The reinforced landing gear, however, should be retained even for the land variant, for reasons discussed in the next section.

Total estimated weight saving for the land variant: roughly 300 to 400 kilograms compared to the full naval configuration. This weight can be redistributed as additional internal fuel, extending range by an estimated 15 to 20 percent, or as additional payload capacity, or simply accepted as improved performance through better thrust-to-weight and climb rate. The specific allocation would depend on the customer's operational priorities.

3. Highways, Tunnels, and the Dispersed Base Doctrine

The Swedish Air Force built its entire Cold War operating concept around a simple premise: if your air bases are known, they will be destroyed in the first hours of a conflict. The solution was to not depend on air bases. The Bas 90 system dispersed fighter operations across hundreds of prepared highway strips, forest clearings, and civilian infrastructure throughout Sweden. Gripen was designed specifically for this doctrine: short takeoff and landing from 800-metre road segments, rapid turnaround by small ground crews, and concealment in forest shelters or highway tunnel entrances between sorties. The aircraft was the tool, but the doctrine was the weapon.

HÜRJET-X, somewhat unexpectedly, aligns well with this operational philosophy, and for reasons that trace directly back to its naval origins. The reinforced landing gear designed for carrier deck impacts at 3-plus metres per second sink rate is overengineered for a normal concrete runway, but it is well matched to the rougher surfaces of highway strips, patched runways, or improvised landing zones. The short takeoff performance developed for ski-jump departure translates directly to short runway segments. The low wing loading that helps with carrier approach also reduces the ground roll distance. Twin engines provide the redundancy that matters most when operating far from maintenance facilities, where a single engine failure would otherwise mean losing both the aircraft and the pilot.

This is not an abstract doctrinal exercise for Turkiye. The country's geography includes long coastlines, mountainous terrain, and a strategic depth that benefits from distributing air assets rather than concentrating them at a handful of large bases. A fleet of HÜRJET-X fighters operating from dispersed highway strips and concealed in road tunnels along the southern and western coasts presents a fundamentally different targeting problem to an adversary than the same number of aircraft parked at two or three known air bases.

KIZILELMA fits naturally into this dispersed architecture. As an unmanned platform with minimal ground support requirements, it can operate from even more austere locations than HÜRJET-X. A dispersed cell might consist of two HÜRJET-X fighters and two KIZILELMA, sheltered in a highway tunnel or forest, serviced by a small mobile maintenance team, and launching from the adjacent road segment. The pilot in the HÜRJET-X commands the KIZILELMA formation through IVDL, the same MUM-T architecture used aboard MUGEM but applied to land-based operations. The tactical effect is a distributed, hard-to-target combat formation that can generate sorties from locations the adversary has not planned to strike.

A daily cycle for such a cell might look like this: aircraft are rolled out of tunnel concealment at dawn, armed and fueled by a mobile team, launched in pairs with KIZILELMA wingmen for a patrol or strike sortie, recovered on the same road segment or an alternate strip, and rolled back into concealment. The entire operation requires no fixed infrastructure beyond the road surface itself, pre-positioned fuel and munitions caches, and a mobile command vehicle with IVDL connectivity. This is a low-cost, high-resilience operating model that plays directly to the strengths of a light, twin-engine, rugged fighter with indigenous engines and an integrated unmanned wingman capability.

4. Production Economics: One Line, Two Customers

The industrial argument for the dual-role approach rests on production volume and its effect on unit cost. A realistic domestic order book might look something like this: approximately 20 HÜRJET-X for the Navy in the tandem-seat, folding-wing, full navalization configuration. These aircraft double as the training and transition platform for future naval aviators as MUGEM's air wing matures toward a KAAN-Naval era. Approximately 60 HÜRJET-X for the Air Force in the single-seat, fixed-wing, reduced-navalization configuration, filling a portion of the light combat and dispersed operations requirement. This is a conservative estimate; the Air Force may take fewer if institutional preference for heavier platforms persists, or more if the dispersed basing doctrine gains traction.

Total domestic production: roughly 80 aircraft from a single production line. The standard HÜRJET trainer variant, which serves a separate requirement entirely, would continue in parallel on its own production stream.

The unit cost effect of 80 versus 20 aircraft is significant. Fixed development costs are amortised across four times the production run. Engine procurement volume, assuming the TF10000 is the common powerplant, roughly triples (160 engines for 80 twin-engine aircraft versus 40 engines for 20). Supplier qualification costs, tooling amortisation, and learning curve effects all benefit from the higher volume. The exact unit cost reduction is difficult to project without detailed production data, but historical precedent in comparable programmes suggests that quadrupling the production run can reduce unit flyaway cost by 20 to 30 percent.

The alternative, developing a separate land-based LCA from scratch or even as a distinct HÜRJET derivative with its own airframe changes, would split the engineering effort, require separate type certification, and produce two lower-volume production runs instead of one higher-volume run. In an environment where TUSAŞ is simultaneously managing KAAN, ANKA-3, standard HÜRJET, and multiple other programmes, the engineering bandwidth for a second parallel fighter derivative simply may not exist. The single-platform, dual-role approach is not just economically preferable, it may be the only industrially feasible path.

5. Export: A Rugged Fighter for Constrained Air Forces

Beyond the domestic market, the land-based HÜRJET-X variant addresses a segment of the international fighter market that is currently underserved.

Many small and medium air forces across Africa, South and Southeast Asia, and Latin America face a common set of constraints. Their budgets cannot support 70 to 90 million dollar fighters. Their infrastructure cannot sustain high-maintenance platforms designed for pristine Western air bases. Their pilot pools are small, making twin-engine survivability more than a preference; losing a pilot to a single engine failure is an operational crisis when you have forty pilots total. And increasingly, their political relationships with traditional Western suppliers are complicated by export restrictions, end-use conditions, or simply by being deprioritised in the delivery queue behind wealthier customers.

HÜRJET-X in its land configuration offers something this market does not currently have: a twin-engine, indigenous-powered, low-maintenance fighter in the 40 to 50 million dollar class that comes without the political conditions attached to American or European platforms. The reinforced landing gear handles runways that would challenge lighter aircraft. The TF10000 engine is supplied by Turkiye without third-party export licence requirements. The common engine family with KIZILELMA means that a customer already operating Turkish unmanned platforms can share maintenance knowledge and potentially spare parts across its manned and unmanned fleet.

Turkiye's defence export relationships, built substantially through Bayraktar drone sales over the past decade, have established trust and familiarity with Turkish defence products across a wide range of countries. Several of these countries are actively looking for affordable combat aircraft to replace ageing fleets of F-5s, MiG-21 derivatives, or early-generation Chinese types. HÜRJET-X does not need to compete with the F-35 or Rafale in this market. It needs to offer a credible, affordable, and politically accessible alternative to the JF-17, FA-50, and Tejas, with the twin-engine safety and indigenous supply chain that none of those competitors currently provide.

The naval variant has a narrower but real export potential. A small number of countries operate or plan to operate light carriers or large amphibious ships with flight decks. For these navies, a carrier-capable fighter in the 12-tonne class with indigenous engines is an option that does not exist elsewhere in the market today.


6. Trade-offs and the Strategic Question

Every programme competes for the same finite pool of money, engineers, and institutional attention. The honest closing question for this discussion is not whether HÜRJET-X as a dual-role platform is technically feasible. The preceding sections suggest that it is, within the constraints and trade-offs described. The question is whether it is strategically worth doing.

The case in favour rests on filling two gaps, naval fighter and dispersed-operations LCA, with a single development programme, at a unit cost driven down by combined production volume, using an indigenous engine that eliminates foreign supply chain dependency. The Bas 90 style operating concept adds a doctrinal dimension that arguably increases the resilience of Turkiye's overall air defence posture in ways that additional heavy fighters cannot.

The case against is equally real. Every engineering hour and every budget lira spent on HÜRJET-X is an hour and a lira not spent on KAAN, KIZILELMA, ANKA-3, or the TF35000 engine. The Air Force's near-term combat capability depends on F-16 modernisation and the Eurofighter acquisition, both of which deliver proven capability faster and with less developmental risk than a new platform. KAAN is the strategic priority for air superiority. KIZILELMA and ANKA-3 are the priority for unmanned mass. Standard HÜRJET is the priority for pilot training. Where does HÜRJET-X fit in this queue without displacing something more urgent?

The answer may depend on timing. If HÜRJET-X can be developed with minimal disruption to existing programmes, by reusing HÜRJET's engineering base, KAAN's technology transfer, and TF10000 as a delivered engine rather than a new development, the incremental cost and effort may be justified by the dual capability it delivers. If it turns into a resource-intensive programme that competes with KAAN for engineering talent and budget, the trade-off becomes harder to defend.

This is not a question this post can answer. It is a question for the planners who see the full resource picture, the full threat assessment, and the full industrial capacity. What this discussion has tried to establish is that the option exists, that the technical path is walkable, and that the potential payoff, a sovereign, dual-role, exportable fighter platform built on an existing industrial base, is substantial enough to warrant serious evaluation rather than casual dismissal.

-END-
 

AlperTunga

Committed member
Messages
228
Reactions
5 302
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
Dispersed base doctrine and use of tunnels etc. is essential for our survival. But it must be done with KAANs. Don‘t forget those Hürjet-X will be facing latest version of F35, when they come out of the tunnel :)
 

Follow us on social media

Latest posts

Top Bottom