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The project to purchase pistols to replace the Canadian military’s Second World War-era handguns is once again underway and National Defence hopes to have the new weapons by the summer of 2022.

The project had been stalled for years after small arms firms rejected in 2011 the federal government requirement that the guns be built at Colt Canada in Kitchener, Ont. In addition, the companies balked at the stipulation they had to turn over their proprietary firearms information to Colt, a firm that some saw as a competitor.

But with small arms companies reluctant to bid on the Canadian pistol project, the federal government has had no choice but to drop those requirements and have an open competition.

(more at link)
 

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The Canadian military’s purchase of 9,000 new pistols will be an initial order but the project could see as many as 20,000 new firearms purchased.

The acquisition of 9,000 pistols is just the first purchase to support Canadian Army requirements, said Department of National Defence spokeswoman Jessica Lamirande. “The precise number has not yet been confirmed as it will depend on requirements, but the grand total is expected to be in the range of 15,000 to 20,000,” she added.

The new handguns would replace the Second World War-era Browning Hi-Power pistols.

(more at link)
 

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autumn-gunner-2020.jpg;w=960

Members of the Canadian Army Reserve and Royal Canadian Air Force participated in Exercise AUTUMN GUNNER on October 17, 2020 at 4th Canadian Division Training Centre in Meaford, Ontario. Photo by Lt(N) Andrew McLaughlin, Public Affairs Officer, 31 Canadian Brigade Group/Department of National Defence

Around 80 soldiers from Kitchener, Cambridge, Guelph and Hamilton took part in AUTUMN GUNNER at 4th Canadian Division Training Centre in Meaford, this past weekend.

They were also supported by helicopters from the Royal Canadian Air Force.

The exercise was led by the 11th Field Artillery Regiment (11Fd) headquartered in Guelph, and had contingents from Waterloo Region's Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada (RHFC) and CH-147F Chinook helicopters from 450 Squadron, RCAF take part.


"The exercise tested the rapid deployment of 105 mm C3 howitzers and 81 mm mortar systems across the sprawling 4 CDTC training area, where indirect fire drills were conducted by both 11Fd and RHFC soldiers working as a larger team. The units confirmed their ability to command, move, and communicate under high-intensity conditions in remote locations, while maintaining their capacity to provide the Canadian Army with battlefield fire support." said a release.

Due to the ongoing pandemic, participants also wore masks and there was additional sanitizing of equipment and hands.

"This challenging exercise was an incredible opportunity for our soldiers to test their mobility and sustainability in the field, while ensuring we can provide experienced and professional forces when and where required." explained Lieutenant-Colonel Gary McQueen, Commanding Officer, 11th Field Artillery Regiment, RCA.
 

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I agree with the author 100%, it is high time Canada trains and equips its Rangers to same level as CA reserves.

They do such thankless work in the Arctic without complaint and successive govts have promised many things to them but always let them down.

They are mostly native inuits (Eskimos in the older parlance), so supporting them better will also help their communities and promote their welfare...and also give stronger sense of loyalty to Canadian nation and its defence as they will be invested into the further training and aptitude of it (they already work closely with CA forces so they are no stranger to the idea of sound tactical training for offense and defense)

==============



Across southern Canada, there are numerous Army Reserve regiments, Naval Reserve divisions, and Royal Canadian Air Force units with part-time and full-time reservists trained and ready to serve in wartime. Then there are the Canadian Rangers, the vaunted mainstay of this country's determination to ensure our sovereignty over the resource-rich and increasingly disputed regions of Canada's North.

For more than a decade this sub-component of the reserves has been promoted by governments and the Forces as a symbol of Canada's commitment to stand on guard in the Arctic. The Army's FAQ page on the Rangers says: "They are part-time reservists who are responsible for protecting Canada's sovereignty as well as defending her coastal interests ... Canadian Rangers provide a military presence in support of Canada's sovereignty."

Conveniently absent from the public affairs flimflam is that the Rangers are the only element of the Canadian Armed Forces which cannot be sent directly into any form of combat. Quite appropriate, as they receive almost no actual military training.

(more at link)
 

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RIP soldier...


Corporal James Choi, a member of the Royal Westminster Regiment based in New Westminster, B.C., has been identified as the Canadian Army soldier who died Saturday during a live-fire training exercise.

He died as the result of a gunshot wound sustained while training at Canadian Forces Base Wainwright, Alberta, according to the Canadian Forces.


Choi joined the Canadian military in 2016 and was a trained infantry soldier. At the time of the incident, Cpl Choi had augmented 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry for a fall continuation training exercise that focuses on core light infantry skills, the military noted. He was 29.

Choi and his fellow soldiers were conducting a live-fire training exercise when the incident occurred. The incident remains under investigation.

“The loss of Cpl. James Choi; a dedicated, hard-working and highly-respected soldier; is devastating,” Canadian Army commander Lt.-Gen. Wayne Eyre said in a statement. “Our thoughts and prayers are with his family, friends and fellow soldiers at this most difficult time.”
 

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I am had read the article, they provide their own equipment themselves to be reimbursed , and their main armaments is mostly Lee Enfield provided since 1947. And i don't know the progress of C19 supposedly to replace them, but Lee Enfield is too damn old and wear and tear condition must taking the toll of their availability and service condition.

We are talking about reserve unit, specialized Scout of a Western Nation , one of the most richest among all. But to let such situation to persist is not common....
 

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I am had read the article, they provide their own equipment themselves to be reimbursed , and their main armaments is mostly Lee Enfield provided since 1947. And i don't know the progress of C19 supposedly to replace them, but Lee Enfield is too damn old and wear and tear condition must taking the toll of their availability and service condition.

We are talking about reserve unit, specialized Scout of a Western Nation , one of the most richest among all. But to let such situation to persist is not common....

It has to do with peculiar situation and context of Canada (w.r.t all other Western nations), it is very unique.

Basically, there is a big north south divide of great relevance (for security + defense etc)

South of this, you find the Canadian provinces with 99% of economy and population (35 million or so people). Provinces have the major political power too.

North of this are the 3 (used to be 2 till one was split) Canadian territories. Combined, their population (120k) does not even make a typical city suburb population in a province. Their political power is also similarly miniscule.

But their (territory) land+water is immense...basically 40% of Canada....when you combine with northern part of the provinces bordering them, its basically 50-50 land split between 99-1 population.

This in cold war situation meant this area is the largest potential battlezone between US/Can and USSR...given these are on either side of this large area when you sweep arc over the arctic etc.

Thus past the NORAD infra set up to handle that (jointly with US)....Canada also went for basically this militia option (rangers) to have a presence in the arctic region, without having to deploy official military (which could be purposed for other relevant duties).

After all they already can (given they are inuit):

- live off the land well
- do a lot with govt subsidy support
- act as intermediary/handlers for food, training and development logistics for their isolated communities
- early warning eyes and ears if soviet ground infiltration + espionage (this was real fear given soviets have inuits too) given the vast open ocean and land for it...

Thus it was not really a conventional combat role, rather its network of hunters/fishers etc with extra training and purpose past that with the security/presence role in mind. Conventional combat role was more delineated for the military itself.

Thus really enfield rifle make sense (in that original role), you can shoot a polar bear, walrus, elk, seal or similar for food....and it is highly reliable rifle (in winter condition + sustained trekking/skiing etc) given simple bolt action. In fact owning lee enfield myself, the action is remarkably simple robust design even for a bolt action. Very easy to get fast at it too, though of course modern AR etc is far more convenient.

Now there is the debate to expand their role into higher security capability in more conventional way. Not only would the (ageing but still working fine with proper maintenance) rifles obviously need replacing ....but they will need to be trained up substantially as well to at least basic norms for military.

Some foreign confusion sometimes originates because "Rangers" is often used for more elite groups in other militaries...but it is very different group here in Canada. Its like a border militia over vast area....mostly relic of cold war, and being debated to be repurposed more mainstream military role now.

@anmdt @UkroTurk @Cabatli_53 @T-123456 @Test7 @Webslave @VCheng @Saiyan0321 @xenon5434 @Vergennes @Dante80 @Joe Shearer @Paro et al.
 

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After all they already can (given they are inuit):

- live off the land well
- do a lot with govt subsidy support
- act as intermediary/handlers for food, training and development logistics for their isolated communities
- early warning eyes and ears if soviet ground infiltration + espionage (this was real fear given soviets have inuits too) given the vast open ocean and land for it...

Your post reminds me of thrillers by Alistair Maclean and Louis L'Amour back in my youth.
 

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Your post reminds me of thrillers by Alistair Maclean and Louis L'Amour back in my youth.

Heh Alistair Maclean is one of my mom's favourites of all time. Wasn't much of a reader (of such) till I got a bit older, but as a kid movies based on his works like Where Eagles Dare, Guns of Navarone etc.. were a staple in regular weekend watching heh. My mom would avidly point out differences in the movie with the book...

I suppose that all has indeed influenced how I go about explaining some of these matters.... you spotted well.
 

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Heh Alistair Maclean is one of my mom's favourites of all time. Wasn't much of a reader (of such) till I got a bit older, but as a kid movies based on his works like Where Eagles Dare, Guns of Navarone etc.. were a staple in regular weekend watching heh. My mom would avidly point out differences in the movie with the book...

I suppose that all has indeed influenced how I go about explaining some of these matters.... you spotted well.

Somewhat on topic is this storyline:

 

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The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) have a fascinating component called the Canadian Rangers that may be unique among the world's militaries. Rangers are soldiers, but they don't look like it: they wear red sweatshirts, carry hunting rifles instead of assault rifles, and often drive civilian vehicles (which they provide themselves).

It's not unusual in military history for armies to dress specialized light infantry units like hunters. But Rangers are not the Jaegers or Zouaves of the nineteenth century — indeed, they're not really infantry at all.

Operating out of isolated communities on the West Coast and in the North, Ranger patrols are comparatively tiny, with as few as eight members each. Units adapts their culture to the local community. They elect their sergeants, and are largely exempt from both the physical and training-time requirements of other elements of the CAF reserve.

These are not combat troops, equipped for battle; they're something far more interesting. The Rangers are a way for distinct and diverse peoples to participate in the defence of their own land, on their own terms, and provide the wider nation with the benefit of their unique skills.

They have also, unfortunately, recently become controversial.

(More at link)
 

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Wish I had 30 grand to blow per rifle + scope + accessories + spares... but then again my acquisitions are with bottom dollar in mind than rerouting taxpayer funds to subsidies for high price, low economy of scale labour. 🙄


c20-sniper-rifle-second-pic-copy.jpg

The C20 semi-automatic sniper rifle is shown undergoing testing earlier this year. PHOTO BY CANADIAN ARMY PHOTO /Postmedia

New semi-automatic weapons for sniper teams have been delivered to the Canadian Forces and testing has begun on the rifles.

“The initial delivery for the new C20 7.62 mm Semi-Automatic Sniper Weapons occurred in November as planned,” Department of National Defence spokeswoman Andrée-Anne Poulin confirmed to this newspaper. “With the delivery of these first systems, we began the training activities for the weapons technicians and snipers as well as the final technical testing which will be completed by the end of this month.”

The remaining C20 deliveries will commence and be completed in the new year, she added.
The rifles were manufactured by Colt Canada and will be used by sniper teams as an auxiliary weapon.
The 272 rifles and spare parts will cost $8.5 million.
The federal government initially awarded a $2-million contract to Colt Canada in Kitchener on February 28 to establish the production line to produce the C20 weapon. That contract also included an initial delivery of 10 of the C20 rifles. That early production run was to ensure Colt had the technical proficiency to deliver the new weapon, added Poulin.

The federal government then awarded a $6.5-million contract to Colt Canada on April 17 to produce 262 additional C20 rifles, associated equipment and spare parts. (Image below courtesy of Colt Canada).

EX3AcZKVAAAaJOj.jpg


DND didn’t have a per-unit cost for the new C20 rifles.

But critics point out that each rifle is costing taxpayers more than $24,000 each.

Some small arms industry representatives have questioned why the Canadian Forces didn’t purchase the SIG 716G2 rifle which is being used by Canadian special forces.

DND officials acknowledge that taxpayers are paying a premium to have the guns manufactured in Canada under what is called the Munitions Supply Program, which sees such work directed to Colt Canada.
 

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Wish I had 30 grand to blow per rifle + scope + accessories + spares... but then again my acquisitions are with bottom dollar in mind than rerouting taxpayer funds to subsidies for high price, low economy of scale labour. 🙄


c20-sniper-rifle-second-pic-copy.jpg

The C20 semi-automatic sniper rifle is shown undergoing testing earlier this year. PHOTO BY CANADIAN ARMY PHOTO /Postmedia

New semi-automatic weapons for sniper teams have been delivered to the Canadian Forces and testing has begun on the rifles.

“The initial delivery for the new C20 7.62 mm Semi-Automatic Sniper Weapons occurred in November as planned,” Department of National Defence spokeswoman Andrée-Anne Poulin confirmed to this newspaper. “With the delivery of these first systems, we began the training activities for the weapons technicians and snipers as well as the final technical testing which will be completed by the end of this month.”

The remaining C20 deliveries will commence and be completed in the new year, she added.
The rifles were manufactured by Colt Canada and will be used by sniper teams as an auxiliary weapon.
The 272 rifles and spare parts will cost $8.5 million.
The federal government initially awarded a $2-million contract to Colt Canada in Kitchener on February 28 to establish the production line to produce the C20 weapon. That contract also included an initial delivery of 10 of the C20 rifles. That early production run was to ensure Colt had the technical proficiency to deliver the new weapon, added Poulin.

The federal government then awarded a $6.5-million contract to Colt Canada on April 17 to produce 262 additional C20 rifles, associated equipment and spare parts. (Image below courtesy of Colt Canada).

EX3AcZKVAAAaJOj.jpg


DND didn’t have a per-unit cost for the new C20 rifles.

But critics point out that each rifle is costing taxpayers more than $24,000 each.

Some small arms industry representatives have questioned why the Canadian Forces didn’t purchase the SIG 716G2 rifle which is being used by Canadian special forces.

DND officials acknowledge that taxpayers are paying a premium to have the guns manufactured in Canada under what is called the Munitions Supply Program, which sees such work directed to Colt Canada.
24.000$ each! Wow! Even outfitted and the cost to be together with the accessories it's a lot. For example the SIG 716G2 raw is under 3000$ on the civilian market and I doubt it would reach 24.000$ fitted with the needed accessories. I hope it worth it.

Otherwise it looks sick! In terms of configuration and accuracy it is also very good. Premium and light two stage trigger, M-LOK interface, sub MOA performance. Good!
 

Nilgiri

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24.000$ each! Wow! Even outfitted and the cost to be together with the accessories it's a lot. For example the SIG 716G2 raw is under 3000$ on the civilian market and I doubt it would reach 24.000$ fitted with the needed accessories. I hope it worth it.

Otherwise it looks sick! In terms of configuration and accuracy it is also very good. Premium and light two stage trigger, M-LOK interface, sub MOA performance. Good!

Yes my issue is not with the system, but with the price/cost this route took (govt frontloading/steering our taxdollars about which jobs are worth more to economy in the end etc). It likely would have been better to pick a DMR already in production run for cheaper.

It is essentially because of limited production run (so very high amortised design and capital cost etc per rifle and system).

Anyway, if Canucks (us) and Danes do end up committing to it more (Danes have a history with Diemaco more generally if you look up C7 rifle)...it might make some of this recuperate by way of tax from that revenue to Colt Canada there etc. But we have to see if they progress beyond the current DMR replacement order (their 417 I believe)...and also any other further exports. @Saithan @Vergennes @Zapper

Colt Canada was originally Diemaco ( which about 20 years ago was bought by a legacy cold war conglomerate making industrial, machine parts and aerospace goods (Devtek). One of the guys that runs our department at work started his career over there actually at Devtek... he did a lot of tool and die design back in the day. The incorporation of folks such as him into higher corporate realm (later in his career) is often the huge inertia that developed countries have over developing ones.

Diemaco itself has a somewhat peculiar history (it was basically a large tool and die maker division of auto parts company) which is long story....but they were chosen back in the 70s by Canadian govt for small arms dev and fabrication excellence (given auto industry really was the zenith for this back then in general)...in keeping with the established industrial heritage of the greater region spanning in all directions from Detroit, if you are aware of the role this region played w.r.t automakers, auto-parts etc making weaponry for a certain significant conflict.


💪 Arsenal of democracy 💪 as it was known.

@anmdt @Joe Shearer @VCheng @Milspec
 

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Danish arms procurement has run afoul a couple of times, changing from good ol trusted partners to new ones with dubious quality has resulted in training accidents. I think I posted about that under Scandinavian thread. Husband and wife in the command chain did the deed... well it’s out of the bag now, so very tight control to be expected, so perhaps we’ll stick with what we know works. But I’ll have to look in to what the Jaeger korpset is using.


1517641865_patrulje.jpg
 

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Wish I had 30 grand to blow per rifle + scope + accessories + spares... but then again my acquisitions are with bottom dollar in mind than rerouting taxpayer funds to subsidies for high price, low economy of scale labour. 🙄


c20-sniper-rifle-second-pic-copy.jpg

The C20 semi-automatic sniper rifle is shown undergoing testing earlier this year. PHOTO BY CANADIAN ARMY PHOTO /Postmedia

New semi-automatic weapons for sniper teams have been delivered to the Canadian Forces and testing has begun on the rifles.

“The initial delivery for the new C20 7.62 mm Semi-Automatic Sniper Weapons occurred in November as planned,” Department of National Defence spokeswoman Andrée-Anne Poulin confirmed to this newspaper. “With the delivery of these first systems, we began the training activities for the weapons technicians and snipers as well as the final technical testing which will be completed by the end of this month.”

The remaining C20 deliveries will commence and be completed in the new year, she added.
The rifles were manufactured by Colt Canada and will be used by sniper teams as an auxiliary weapon.
The 272 rifles and spare parts will cost $8.5 million.
The federal government initially awarded a $2-million contract to Colt Canada in Kitchener on February 28 to establish the production line to produce the C20 weapon. That contract also included an initial delivery of 10 of the C20 rifles. That early production run was to ensure Colt had the technical proficiency to deliver the new weapon, added Poulin.

The federal government then awarded a $6.5-million contract to Colt Canada on April 17 to produce 262 additional C20 rifles, associated equipment and spare parts. (Image below courtesy of Colt Canada).

EX3AcZKVAAAaJOj.jpg


DND didn’t have a per-unit cost for the new C20 rifles.

But critics point out that each rifle is costing taxpayers more than $24,000 each.

Some small arms industry representatives have questioned why the Canadian Forces didn’t purchase the SIG 716G2 rifle which is being used by Canadian special forces.

DND officials acknowledge that taxpayers are paying a premium to have the guns manufactured in Canada under what is called the Munitions Supply Program, which sees such work directed to Colt Canada.
24k for an ar15 patterned rifle? I hope they are throwing in a Camry as an accessory.
 

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Yes my issue is not with the system, but with the price/cost this route took (govt frontloading/steering our taxdollars about which jobs are worth more to economy in the end etc). It likely would have been better to pick a DMR already in production run for cheaper.

It is essentially because of limited production run (so very high amortised design and capital cost etc per rifle and system).

Anyway, if Canucks (us) and Danes do end up committing to it more (Danes have a history with Diemaco more generally if you look up C7 rifle)...it might make some of this recuperate by way of tax from that revenue to Colt Canada there etc. But we have to see if they progress beyond the current DMR replacement order (their 417 I believe)...and also any other further exports. @Saithan @Vergennes @Zapper

Colt Canada was originally Diemaco ( which about 20 years ago was bought by a legacy cold war conglomerate making industrial, machine parts and aerospace goods (Devtek). One of the guys that runs our department at work started his career over there actually at Devtek... he did a lot of tool and die design back in the day. The incorporation of folks such as him into higher corporate realm (later in his career) is often the huge inertia that developed countries have over developing ones.

Diemaco itself has a somewhat peculiar history (it was basically a large tool and die maker division of auto parts company) which is long story....but they were chosen back in the 70s by Canadian govt for small arms dev and fabrication excellence (given auto industry really was the zenith for this back then in general)...in keeping with the established industrial heritage of the greater region spanning in all directions from Detroit, if you are aware of the role this region played w.r.t automakers, auto-parts etc making weaponry for a certain significant conflict.


💪 Arsenal of democracy 💪 as it was known.

@anmdt @Joe Shearer @VCheng @Milspec
Does that also include ammo contract or something like a top notch SOPMOD kit?

For instance, this particular variant of EOTech's Quad Ground Panoramic NVD costs $48k.

1607800007606.png


Their thermal sights and binocular NVD costs $22k & $16k respectively

1607800175733.png


Some of the best high end rifle scopes I've seen cost anywhere between $1500-2500. The rest of the accessories should be fairly inexpensive.

IA's recent acquisition of the Victrix Scorpio TGT costs anywhere between $7k to $12k. I'm unsure what IA paid though. Any idea what is the price of C20 in civilian market?


Unless they're actually throwing in a helmet mounted sight costing in excess of $10k, I don't see that $24k price tag justifiable
 
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Nilgiri

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Does that also include ammo contract or something like a top notch SOPMOD kit?

For instance, this particular variant of EOTech's Quad Ground Panoramic NVD costs $48k.

View attachment 8586

Their thermal sights and binocular NVD costs $22k & $16k respectively

View attachment 8587

Some of the best high end rifle scopes I've seen cost anywhere between $1500-2500. The rest of the accessories should be fairly inexpensive.

IA's recent acquisition of the Victrix Scorpio TGT costs anywhere between $7k to $12k. I'm unsure what IA paid though. Any idea what is the price of C20 in civilian market?


Unless they're actually throwing in a helmet mounted sight costing in excess of $10k, I don't see that $24k price tag justifiable

Nope (no ammo package, no fancy stuff) Like I explained its just the rifles, scope and basic gear....due to very limited production run.

Guess what an F-22 is gonna cost if they only order 10 in the end? There you have it. Also reason its as high as it is coz they (US) only went for 187 compared to 100s more originally planned in that case.
 

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The Second World War-era pistols used by the Canadian military will soon be replaced as the federal government plans to request bids for a new handgun in February.

A contract is expected to be awarded by September with initial deliveries beginning in the summer of 2022, Department of National Defence spokesperson Jessica Lamirande said.

The new handguns will replace the Second World War-era Browning Hi-Power pistols.

The military was originally going to make an initial purchase of 9,000 pistols for the Canadian Army. But that number has increased to 16,500 as handguns will also be bought for the Royal Canadian Air Force and military police, Lamirande noted.

The firearms will be modular, meaning they can be reconfigured for various roles. Attachments such as improved targeting systems can also be installed on the guns.


“The procurement will also include options to support future requirements of additional modular pistols, but the precise number has not yet been confirmed as it will depend on requirements,” Lamirande explained. “The total procurement is expected to be up to 20,000 modular pistols.”

Lamirande noted that since a competition for the guns will soon be under way the DND cannot provide details on what the pistol purchase will cost taxpayers.

But in a closed door session in 2016 industry representatives were told by military and DND procurement officials that the purchase of 15,000 to 25,000 handguns would cost $50 million, according to documents obtained by this newspaper. That price-tag included spare parts.

(More at link)
 

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