TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

Nutuk

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I have to check, but from memory Aselsan was tasked to upgrade the M60 tanks (all upgraded and delivered) and BMC was tasked to upgrade the Leopard 2A4, which is thus far a big nothing except the showing of a prototype.
 

Combat-Master

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Is there is a contract ? BMC introduced a prototype but no contract yet have been received

There are two projects active;
Roketsan; adds additional armour to leopard 2A4. - Development complete, Leopards 2A4 being modernised
BMC; complete turret transformation, adds components of Altay to Leopard 2A4. - In development
 

Nutuk

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M60T

Within the scope of the FIRAT-M60T Project, a contract worth €109.245 million + TRY 25 million was signed on May 11, 2017, between the SSB and Aselsan during IDEF ‘17. It was declared that the Laser Warning System, Remote Controlled Weapon Systems, Close-Range Surveillance System, Robust Spall Liner, Air Conditioning System would be integrated. In the aftermath, as part of other urgent requirements defined by the procurement authority, Contract Amendment No 1, valued at €96.7 million + TRY 25 million, was prepared and signed on July 24, 2018. With Contract Amendment No 1, the total amount of the Project contract reached € 206 Million + TL 50 Million. In accordance with the amendment to the contract, the AKKOR PULAT Active Protection System (APS) will be integrated on 40 of the 169 M60TM MBTs. Out of the 169 tanks dubbed M60TM that were designated for modernization as part of the FIRAT-M60T Project, would integrated the Telescopic Periscope System (TEPES) on 73 of these tanks. Moreover, 90 40mm automatic grenade launchers were procured in 2018 to be used on the M60TM MBTs.



All contracted, transparent and all tanks delivered upgraded



Leopard 2A4 MOD



Is a complete ??

First it was said 40 tanks would be modernized, in 2020 SSB declared 84 Leopard would be modernized, they even showed a finished prototype, several sourced declared serial upgrade was started.



We are in end of 2021, were are the Leo’s? Did the cat eat them?
 

Nutuk

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Whatever all these "fail" projects were BMC is involved doesn't give the company a great thrust value
 

Ryder

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We can see who the real joke is;


If the Leotay can prove itself as a stop gap if not supplement the Turkish tank force. I would support it 100%.

A lot of the shitbox tanks like the M60 and M48 will get their well deserved retirement.

Altay, Leotay, M60 Sabra along with the Kaplan Medium Tank. Now you have a formidable tank force.
 

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Rumor is that the BMC is planning on recycling inactive Leopard 2A4 turrets as a result of Leo-Tay (a.k.a the Frankenstein) project. M48s under Naval Infantry Command are to be upgraded to Leo48 status.
News is evaluated as BMC’s commitment to environmental protection!
Please stop this madness 🤣 leave it to aselsan and roketsan
 

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If the Leotay can prove itself as a stop gap if not supplement the Turkish tank force. I would support it 100%.

A lot of the shitbox tanks like the M60 and M48 will get their well deserved retirement.

Altay, Leotay, M60 Sabra along with the Kaplan Medium Tank. Now you have a formidable tank force.
I prefer Aselsan developing an unmanned 105mm turret like Cockerill 105mm and marrying it to M60A3 or Leo1s.. and some side armor.. absolutely a new tank.. may be even adding local or hybrid engine to them could be an option.
 

Yasar_TR

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Another long winded project. But it is at least a start.
However it is important that after the initial 8-12 month testing period, the company that will undertake the responsibility of building the tanks will have to be very proficient.
So, first we will receive a number of representative engines (prototypes). These will be tested for 8-12 months. Upon approval a quantity of engines will be purchased to build Altay Tanks until our indigenous engine is ready.
It is expected that first 40 (T1) tanks will be with South Korean engine/transmission.
In order to fit these Korean engines in to current Altay body some changes will have to be made to the design.

Altay tankının motoru için Güney Kore ile imzalar atıldı
 

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Another long winded project. But it is at least a start.
However it is important that after the initial 8-12 month testing period, the company that will undertake the responsibility of building the tanks will have to be very proficient.
So, first we will receive a number of representative engines (prototypes). These will be tested for 8-12 months. Upon approval a quantity of engines will be purchased to build Altay Tanks until our indigenous engine is ready.
It is expected that first 40 (T1) tanks will be with South Korean engine/transmission.
In order to fit these Korean engines in to current Altay body some changes will have to be made to the design.

Altay tankının motoru için Güney Kore ile imzalar atıldı
EgSZIZ9WoAUpAZ2.jpg

As far as I know, Hyundai Rotem designed the engine room the same as K2 when developing Altay's prototype.

The body of the BMC version of Altay will not be very different in design inside the chassis just like the Otokar version of Altay.

The engine room of the K2 tank has 1000mm of free space. I think the engine room of the Altay tank will be bigger than the K2 tank. It is not an important problem to redesign Korean power packs to suit Altay. The problem is that we don't know what will happen if put a 5400kg Korean power pack(Engine + Transmission + Cooling device) in a heavier Altay tank than K2.
 
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TheInsider

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This is what stabilization is

Leotay prototype has no stabilization when it was demonstrated. The turret is welded to the bottom part. There are gears between the turret and the bottom part that makes them turn independently. You can find such a solution in older tanks that don't have real stabilization and fire on the move capability. It is good for the show (göz boyama).

No official contract is signed with BMC for Leo2a4 mod because SSB knows BMC has no capability to modernize and trying hard to gain capability. To give them space to gain the ability to upgrade Leo2A4s SSB postpones the official contract. Meanwhile satisfying very urgent needs with another modernization package. This is a similar strategy to waiting for BMC to design its own 8x8 vehicles. You will see that after BMC completes 10000 km tests and live-fire tests of its 8x8 armored vehicle things will gain pace.

For the past 5 years, we are waiting for BMC to design an 8x8 armored vehicle.
For 3+ years to gain the capability to upgrade Leo2A4 tanks
For 5 years to gain the capability to produce Altay.

BMC is working on upgrading Leo2s since 2018. This is a picture from early 2019. People think BMC has just kicked off the project. 3+ years have passed with no modernized tanks in sight. Not even a fully working prototype.
This is a mobility test those bricks are simulating the weight of the add-on armor.

So why did BMC push for Leotay? According to upgrade terms BMC has to remove the old hydraulic-based turret stabilization of Leo2s and replace them with a fully electrical turret. BMC just couldn't do it. It is a big work. Only FNSS, Otokar and Aselsan has that ability. Altay turret is designed as an electrical turret from scratch and blueprints were ready. It is not a bad decision but it is pushed to gain time since they couldn't show an upgraded Leo2A4.
Leo1.jpg


Do you guys think Erdo just fired Ethem and Talip from BMC for the sake of firing someone? If there is no failure why Ethem and Talip are fired and why do Qataris push their complaints as far as to Erdo?

BTW I'm hopeful from 2022.
 
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Elaser

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This is what stabilization is

Leotay prototype has no stabilization when it was demonstrated. The turret is welded to the bottom part. There are gears between the turret and the bottom part that makes them turn independently. You can find such a solution in older tanks that don't have real stabilization and fire on the move capability. It is good for the show (göz boyama).

No official contract is signed with BMC for Leo2a4 mod because SSB knows BMC has no capability to modernize and trying hard to gain capability. To give them space to gain the ability to upgrade Leo2A4s SSB postpones the official contract. Meanwhile satisfying very urgent needs with another modernization package. This is a similar strategy to waiting for BMC to design its own 8x8 vehicles. You will see that after BMC completes 10000 km tests and live-fire tests of its 8x8 armored vehicle things will gain pace.

For the past 5 years, we are waiting for BMC to design an 8x8 armored vehicle.
For 3+ years to gain the capability to upgrade Leo2A4 tanks
For 5 years to gain the capability to produce Altay.

BMC is working on upgrading Leo2s since 2018. This is a picture from early 2019. People think BMC has just kicked off the project. 3+ years have passed with no modernized tanks in sight. Not even a fully working prototype.
This is a mobility test those bricks are simulating the weight of the add-on armor.

So why did BMC push for Leotay? According to upgrade terms BMC has to remove the old hydraulic-based turret stabilization of Leo2s and replace them with a fully electrical turret. BMC just couldn't do it. It is a big work. Only FNSS, Otokar and Aselsan has that ability. Altay turret is designed as an electrical turret from scratch and blueprints were ready. It is not a bad decision but it is pushed to gain time since they couldn't show an upgraded Leo2A4.
Leo1.jpg


Do you guys think Erdo just fired Ethem and Talip from BMC for the sake of firing someone? If there is no failure why Ethem and Talip are fired and why do Qataris push their complaints as far as to Erdo?

BTW I'm hopeful from 2022.
Question: why did otokar design altay with ammo compartment in hull? Why not like abrams 90% of ammo in turret bustle?
 

TheInsider

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Question: why didnt otokar design altay with ammo compartment in hull? Why not like abrams 90% of ammo in turret bustle?
Altay is designed taking into account the requirements of the land forces. You should ask that question directly to land forces. Every term and requirement was written in the design contract(from the thickness of the armor to acceleration rate, how much ammo is going to be carried, what will be the pressure of the tracks everything you can think of) and the tank is accepted after the tests that made sure that every term under the contract is satisfied and then the prototypes and data package is delivered to the SSB so you should ask those questions to SSB and land forces. It is not the fault of the Otokar. Otokar delivered what SSB and land forces wanted.
 
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Elaser

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Altay is designed taking into account the requirements of the land forces. You should ask that question directly to land forces. Every term and requirement was written in the design contract(from the thickness of the armor to acceleration rate, how much ammo is going to be carried, what will be the pressure of the tracks everything you can think of) and the tank is accepted after the tests that made sure that every term under the contract is satisfied and then the prototypes and data package is delivered to the SSB so you should ask those questions to SSB and land forces. It is not the fault of the Otokar. Otokar delivered what SSB and land forces wanted.
Do you know why the army want ammo in the hull?
 

TheInsider

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Do you know why the army want ammo in the hull?
Probably because they were writing the requirements for an MBT for the first time. Armor thickness was also less than ideal. The tank had no capability to launch barrel-fired laser-guided missile capability. No periscopic sight and situational awareness system. This is why Otokar offered an AHT version in IDEF 2017. AHT was production-ready in 2017.

 
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Elaser

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Probably because they were writing the requirements for an MBT for the first time. Armor thickness was also less than ideal. The tank had no capability to launch barrel-fired laser-guided missile capability. No periscopic sight and situational awareness system. This is why Otokar offered an AHT version in IDEF 2017. AHT was production-ready in 2017.

I think the army was ignorant about 1991 gulf war, 2006 hezbollah israel war and even early years of syrian civil war. It is bad no one questioned the requirements after seeing soviet tanks blow up by ammo explosion. I think only after turkish leopard blew up in syria did they change requirements which are to be used in altay T2. They should have known risk of ammo in hull long time before...

Also why did otokar leave armour gap in front turret corner on gunners side next to gunners periscope?
 

TheInsider

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Land forces and SSB wrote the requirements around 2009-2010 I guess. There were no Syrian civil war and widespread use of ATGMs etc. Land forces always thought that the tanks will be utilized on the field and open terrain and the Hizbullah-Israel conflict is a special case so they wanted good mobility, good firepower, and decent protection.

I don't know anything about the armor gap.
 

Saithan

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Another long winded project. But it is at least a start.
However it is important that after the initial 8-12 month testing period, the company that will undertake the responsibility of building the tanks will have to be very proficient.
So, first we will receive a number of representative engines (prototypes). These will be tested for 8-12 months. Upon approval a quantity of engines will be purchased to build Altay Tanks until our indigenous engine is ready.
It is expected that first 40 (T1) tanks will be with South Korean engine/transmission.
In order to fit these Korean engines in to current Altay body some changes will have to be made to the design.

Altay tankının motoru için Güney Kore ile imzalar atıldı

View attachment 34078
As far as I know, Hyundai Rotem designed the engine room the same as K2 when developing Altay's prototype.

The body of the BMC version of Altay will not be very different in design inside the chassis just like the Otokar version of Altay.

The engine room of the K2 tank has 1000mm of free space. I think the engine room of the Altay tank will be bigger than the K2 tank. It is not an important problem to redesign Korean power packs to suit Altay. The problem is that we don't know what will happen if put a 5400kg Korean power pack(Engine + Transmission + Cooling device) in a heavier Altay tank than K2.
I was worried about how much they’d have to spend on changing the hull. But if the weight is cause for concern perhaps it could be solved by changing the turret to an unmanned type.

It should lighten the overall weight of the MBT.
 
E

Elaser

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There were no Syrian civil war
But it started in 2011 and altay prototype reveal was in 2013. They should have went back to drawing board to implement latest lessons.

Land forces always thought that the tanks will be utilized on the field and open terrain and the Hizbullah-Israel conflict is a special case so they wanted good mobility, good firepower, and decent protection.
Doesn't matter, separation of ammo and crew is must for crew survivability and repairability of tank after penetration. Abrams is much better in this than any other tank... Turkish army should be aware of these big advantages of Abrams ammunition layout and storage... not looking at leopard...

altay already weighs 63.5 tons while having armor thickness like ariete... something went very wrong with altay design and now they are trying to fix with add on armor... Also they made big gap is turret side armor next to gunners perisicope...

I guess Turkish lives are cheap in the eyes of the army...
 
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Elaser

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Only in T2 will altay have "tecrit edilmis govde muhimmat konfigurasyonu" isolated hull ammo configuration. I wonder how they will implement this. It it very difficult to isolate 24 120mm rounds in front hull as effeciently as in turret bustle. altay hull needs complete redesign for this...

altay design is bad and now it needs redesign in T2 and then T3. Army will have 3 different tanks not 3 variants of the same tank...

altay was inspired by euro tanks like leopard but should have been inspired by Abrams tank...

Blame is not on BMC but on army and otokar... BMC is now forced to correct bad design while they have poor experience...
 
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Merzifonlu

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Blame is not on BMC but on army and Otokar... BMC is now forced to correct bad design while they have poor experience...
Not Otokar also. Only blame TSK. Otokar implemented the demands of the TSK. TSK was a blindly fan of German Leopard-2's. When the TSK experienced modern tank warfare in Syria, there was a sudden enlightenment!
 

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