Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

Baljak

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It’s slightly off topic, but has Turkey’s operations with UAV caused a change in how SK approaches armoured vehicles in general ?

If the weight of the tank is reduced to make space for autoloader isn’t it counterproductive to have autoloaders ?
The South Korean military has also been developing a unmanned combat platform called the Army tiger 4.0 since 2017. South Korea are currently preparing to produce UAVs and develop and test unmanned weapons systems such as rifle drones and Bomb drones.

The South Korean military is also operating Songgolmae, a Reconnaissance UAV developed from the 1990s to 2004, and South Korea are planning to produce drones developed based on the U.S. military's RQ-7 in 2007. But, unlike other countries, South Korea does not invest much in UAV development.

With the upgrade of the main gun to 155 mm L52 and the addition of an autoloader system, the K9 SPG weight has become heavier than the existing K55 used by the South Korean military. K55(26 tons), K9(47 tons)

Really, the internal space of the K1 and K2 tanks diffrent a lot. The K1 tank does not have an autoloader system, so there are many free spaces for flight attendants to move freely in tank. On the other hand, the interior space of the K2 has become very small due to the autoloader system, and Honestly, the space inside the tank is too small for 3 people.

What is more problematic is that the thickness of the K2 turret side and the side armor of the vehicle body is reduced to use the autoloader. This is a problem directly related to the viability of tank crew. The Leclerc, Type 99A2, and Type 10 tanks I mentioned earlier also have this problem. This is why these tanks are the biggest reason for using modular ERA(Explosive Reactive Armor) and NERA(Non-Explosive Reactive Armor)

Currently, the Korean military is also aware that the side armor of the K2 tank is weak, and the K2 PIP(Product Improvement Program), which will be improved later, will add modular ERA and NERA to the turrets and body sides.
 

Bogeyman 

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DEMİR: "We are planning a face-to-face meeting with our interlocutor in Korea in February."

DEMİR, who shared details about the work carried out to sign a memorandum of understanding between the parties of both countries after the Declaration of Intent signed in Seoul last month for the procurement of ALTAY Power Group from Korea, said, “You know that when we say alternative country regarding the Power Group, we mean Korea. With the effect of the epidemic, there was quite a slowdown on the Korean side. This issue was clearly brought up again during the visit of our Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the necessary signatures were signed for the export permit. Then there was the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU), we had various conversations with our interlocutor in Korea over the phone. There are a few transactions in the lower level bureaucracy, and after they are completed, the work will be signed and we are planning a face-to-face meeting with them in February. They have a visit here, maybe we can have a visit too. In that regard, we received feedback from the Korean authorities that the stagnation in this temporary period has been overcome and that the issue will be put back on track by using a high level of initiative. In this regard, they said that since more than one company is involved, it took some time to coordinate them,” he said.

DEMİR: “After a month or two, we will see the BATU Power Group integrated...”

In response to a question about whether the BATU Power Group, which was developed with national resources for the ALTAY Main Battle Tank, was tested for the first start-up with the transmission, President of Defense Industries DEMİR pointed out that the power group consists of engine and transmission, and shared the following information: “The transmission is a bit more difficult in terms of competencies in Turkey. We stated that. The good news is that we started the tests of both the engine and the transmission in our 1.000hp power group and now the tests are continuing on the Test Bed in an integrated manner. So the engine came first and then the transmission. In the power group with a capacity of 1,500 hp, the engine, which is the engine of the ALTAY tank, was already working in Test Bad. Transmission, on the other hand, has reached the stage of integration. So one transmission is currently working, while the second will be integrated into the engine and run, after seeing the loads, at a certain stage of the engine's ongoing testing. After a month or two, we will see the BATU Power Group integrated. In other words, our domestic engines and power systems are currently working in the test phase regarding the Power Group. Of course, you know that this test period is not very short, as you know, they are currently in a situation where these jobs need to be created in the world and tested for hundreds of hours by changing various parameters.
 
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Baljak

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DEMİR: "We are planning a face-to-face meeting with our interlocutor in Korea in February."

DEMİR, who shared details about the work carried out to sign a memorandum of understanding between the parties of both countries after the Declaration of Intent signed in Seoul last month for the procurement of ALTAY Power Group from Korea, said, “You know that when we say alternative country regarding the Power Group, we mean Korea. With the effect of the epidemic, there was quite a slowdown on the Korean side. This issue was clearly brought up again during the visit of our Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the necessary signatures were signed for the export permit. Then there was the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU), we had various conversations with our interlocutor in Korea over the phone. There are a few transactions in the lower level bureaucracy, and after they are completed, the work will be signed and we are planning a face-to-face meeting with them in February. They have a visit here, maybe we can have a visit too. In that regard, we received feedback from the Korean authorities that the stagnation in this temporary period has been overcome and that the issue will be put back on track by using a high level of initiative. In this regard, they said that since more than one company is involved, it took some time to coordinate them,” he said.

DEMİR: “After a month or two, we will see the BATU Power Group integrated...”

In response to a question about whether the BATU Power Group, which was developed with national resources for the ALTAY Main Battle Tank, was tested for the first start-up with the transmission, President of Defense Industries DEMİR pointed out that the power group consists of engine and transmission, and shared the following information: “The transmission is a bit more difficult in terms of competencies in Turkey. We stated that. The good news is that we started the tests of both the engine and the transmission in our 1.000hp power group and now the tests are continuing on the Test Bed in an integrated manner. So the engine came first and then the transmission. In the power group with a capacity of 1,500 hp, the engine, which is the engine of the ALTAY tank, was already working in Test Bad. Transmission, on the other hand, has reached the stage of integration. So one transmission is currently working, while the second will be integrated into the engine and run, after seeing the loads, at a certain stage of the engine's ongoing testing. After a month or two, we will see the BATU Power Group integrated. In other words, our domestic engines and power systems are currently working in the test phase regarding the Power Group. Of course, you know that this test period is not very short, as you know, they are currently in a situation where these jobs need to be created in the world and tested for hundreds of hours by changing various parameters.
Annoyingly enough, this Korean engine and Korean transmission should have entered the K2. I just laugh at this ironic situation that Korean engines and transmissions are used first for Altay, not for K2.

It is upsetting to think that K2 spent 12 years developing power packs due to design defects in engines and transmissions. Anyway, I wonder if the improved Korean transmission will work well after being declared inappropriate by the Korean Ministry of National Defense.

If the Korean power pack works successfully in Altay, there will be no more reason to use the German RENK HSWL 295 TM transmission for K2. I hope the improved Korean power pack(DV27K + EST15K) will work without any problems in Altay. K2 fate is up to you. I trust you. Altay.
 
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merzifonlu

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If this power pack works smoothly in the heavier Altay or if its potential errors are corrected in cooperation with Turkey, there will be no obstacles to integrating this power pack into the K2 tank.

An alternative is also created for countries that do not like to use the German power package or will use it as a bargaining chip against the German power package.
 

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View attachment 36681
If i guess the weight of the ammunition of the RH130 L51 shown in this picture, it will be 80 to 90% heavier than the shell of the RH120 L55, the DM63.

The DM63 weighs 21.4 kg, and the RH130 L51 shell is estimated to be at least 38kg. This weight is really hard for healthy soldiers to carry. I think autoloader systems will be essential if all tanks around the world use 130 mm main guns in the future.

The Main Ground Combat System(MGCS), a joint German and French tank development project to be developed in 2030 with Leopard 2, which was improved by Rheinmetall in 2025, will also be equipped with RH130. Recently, Rheinmetall tested the UK Challenger 2 tank with a RH130 L51.

In the not-too-distant future, when the main gun of the tank is long and large, the tank without the autoloader system will disappear one day.
Can a gunner handle that weight?
 

Huelague

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There is no need for 4 men anymore advanced situational awareness systems and autoloaders will replace extra men. Crew size will decrease to 3 and 2. Weight will also come down to under 50 tons. Tanks will be accompanied by UGVs.
The autoloader will increase the weight.
 

Manomed

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Annoyingly enough, this Korean engine and Korean transmission should have entered the K2. I just laugh at this ironic situation that Korean engines and transmissions are used first for Altay, not for K2.

It is upsetting to think that K2 spent 12 years developing power packs due to design defects in engines and transmissions. Anyway, I wonder if the improved Korean transmission will work well after being declared inappropriate by the Korean Ministry of National Defense.

If the Korean power pack works successfully in Altay, there will be no more reason to use the German RENK HSWL 295 TM transmission for K2. I hope the improved Korean power pack(DV27K + EST15K) will work without any problems in Altay. K2 fate is up to you. I trust you. Altay.
I hope we can finally get the Altay working
 

CAN_TR

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Bigger and heavier with each upgrade is not a solution either, the Leopard2A7 for example exceeded the 70t scale with current models, i personally think the Russians with the T-14 came up with the best solution, unmanned turret, autoloader, seperated armored capsule, reactive armor and APS all in all way below 60t.
 

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Armata style tanks have different strategy to save crew as Tank crews are secured in titanium capsule. So you don't have to cover all over tank with heavy armour.
I don't know what the best strategy for tank armour . let's choose :Just Survival of the crew or keeping the tank operational under heavy attacks.

IMG_20211205_213155.jpg
 

Anastasius

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Russian tank warfare involves a variant of blitzkrieg tactics where rapid forward advances are key (it has its weaknesses, which the Ukrainians exploited during the early years of the Donbas War), therefore relatively lightly armored vehicles that are more mobile make sense for them.
 

Saithan

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Russian tank warfare involves a variant of blitzkrieg tactics where rapid forward advances are key (it has its weaknesses, which the Ukrainians exploited during the early years of the Donbas War), therefore relatively lightly armored vehicles that are more mobile make sense for them.
It kinda makes sense as Russia would be more interested in pushing forward capturing land and holding it as fast as possible with Air support and since they have nukes an all out war doesn't seem realistic. Which kinda means Russia will be able to grab and hold on to whatever they can get.

Remember Sovjet died because of the economy.
 

Turko

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Gratefully we have high-tech, rapid and light STA gun carrier vehicles :) so we don't have to care about enemy's MBT:)
 

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Russian tank warfare involves a variant of blitzkrieg tactics where rapid forward advances are key (it has its weaknesses, which the Ukrainians exploited during the early years of the Donbas War), therefore relatively lightly armored vehicles that are more mobile make sense for them.

For the blitzkreig to work they have to have the numbers. Its all about using numbers in a rapid way to overwhelm the enemy like ants.

Russians know how to use numbers to their advantage.
 

Turko

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The only thing I don't like about them is the number of missiles ready to fire.
Don't compare unguided tank shells with guided ATGM's. One shot one kill :) 2 missiles two kill. How many tanks would STAs have to encounter in the battle?No worries. Rapidly crew could reload.
 

AWP

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For the blitzkreig to work they have to have the numbers

it's a two blade method

incase of a possible future war between russia and ukraine , ukraine only have to do is a guerrilla warfare . kornet + javelin + manpad + some good guerrilla tactics will cripple any form of blitzkrieg attack . On 2006, israel did a huge mistake using tanks in urban warfare .

tanks are good only incase of total war .
 

Ryder

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it's a two blade method

incase of a possible future war between russia and ukraine , ukraine only have to do is a guerrilla warfare . kornet + javelin + manpad + some good guerrilla tactics will cripple any form of blitzkrieg attack . On 2006, israel did a huge mistake using tanks in urban warfare .

tanks are good only incase of total war .

I think Russia's number 1 priority is to link up Crimea with Russia.

The more deep they go into Ukraine the more costly it is.

Ukraine lost Crimea pretty much the worst way possible. They lost it without firing a bullet.
 

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I would like to revise my opinion, we will have to avoid Active Protection Systems of enemies against our STAs ATGMs so we must have balanced combination of MBT/STA.

Just MBTs 120mm powerful ammunition can defeat APS . Especially 130mm new ammunition is interesting .

Would it be useful compact tanks with decent armour and with unmanned 130mm turret?
İnstead of 60 ton one heavy MBT ( 4 crew -40p 120mm rounds- 1500hp powerpack) two Medium weight tanks (130mm 20 rounds- 1200hp powerpack- 2 or 3 crew)??

 
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Anastasius

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It kinda makes sense as Russia would be more interested in pushing forward capturing land and holding it as fast as possible with Air support and since they have nukes an all out war doesn't seem realistic. Which kinda means Russia will be able to grab and hold on to whatever they can get.

Remember Sovjet died because of the economy.
No, that's not really guaranteed. Russian attack doctrine requires either complete subjugation of the opposition from Step 1 or else charging so far ahead past their front lines that they'll be forced to retreat their forces to cover their rear positions. It's a very delicate strategy and if they fail to achieve overwhelming dominance or get baited into a trap, they are f***ed.
 
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