TR Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

Yasar

Experienced member
Lead Moderator
Professional
Messages
2,314
Reactions
17 9,425
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
What will be the unit cost of one Altay tank?
There is an English saying;
How long is a piece of string?
it indicates that something cannot be given a finite measurement.
Originally, the BMC had won the 250 tank order with a bid of 3.5 billion Euros. If that is still valid or not; But that then meant 14 million Euros per tank. But we didn’t know what that included. e g Akkor? additional ERA?
It will all depend on the new power pack cost and how much profit “the new owners” will want to make.
Whatever will be will be. People are so fed up with the handling of the whole issue that the price at the moment is a secondary point. It has become a matter of national prestige now. Let us produce a few dozen first. Then we can fight over how expensive it is or not. Think of it as a prototype initial production run.
 

Manomed

Experienced member
Messages
1,959
Reactions
2,775
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
There is an English saying;
How long is a piece of string?
it indicates that something cannot be given a finite measurement.
Originally, the BMC had won the 250 tank order with a bid of 3.5 billion Euros. If that is still valid or not; But that then meant 14 million Euros per tank. But we didn’t know what that included. e g Akkor? additional ERA?
It will all depend on the new power pack cost and how much profit “the new owners” will want to make.
Whatever will be will be. People are so fed up with the handling of the whole issue that the price at the moment is a secondary point. It has become a matter of national prestige now. Let us produce a few dozen first. Then we can fight over how expensive it is or not. Think of it as a prototype initial production run.
Will it be T1 or T2?
 

Ecderha

Experienced member
Messages
2,684
Reactions
1 5,197
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
You all forget something!
It happened all time!
When West saw that Turkiye succeed with embargoed parts -> then they just change behavier and send a person or a Notification that Turkiye from NOW on Can get their part/platform without Any Greed % applied before.

So Let see are MTU will bend over for Turkiye
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
2,561
Reactions
1 2,812
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
There is an English saying;
How long is a piece of string?
it indicates that something cannot be given a finite measurement.
Originally, the BMC had won the 250 tank order with a bid of 3.5 billion Euros. If that is still valid or not; But that then meant 14 million Euros per tank. But we didn’t know what that included. e g Akkor? additional ERA?
It will all depend on the new power pack cost and how much profit “the new owners” will want to make.
Whatever will be will be. People are so fed up with the handling of the whole issue that the price at the moment is a secondary point. It has become a matter of national prestige now. Let us produce a few dozen first. Then we can fight over how expensive it is or not. Think of it as a prototype initial production run.
That’s ridiculous. No matter what, how much additional ERA or APS they want to mount or add of ammunition.
 

Radonsider

Well-known member
Messages
391
Reactions
425
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Bosnia & Herzegovina
There is an English saying;
How long is a piece of string?
it indicates that something cannot be given a finite measurement.
Originally, the BMC had won the 250 tank order with a bid of 3.5 billion Euros. If that is still valid or not; But that then meant 14 million Euros per tank. But we didn’t know what that included. e g Akkor? additional ERA?
It will all depend on the new power pack cost and how much profit “the new owners” will want to make.
Whatever will be will be. People are so fed up with the handling of the whole issue that the price at the moment is a secondary point. It has become a matter of national prestige now. Let us produce a few dozen first. Then we can fight over how expensive it is or not. Think of it as a prototype initial production run.
Also, 14 million per tank is not actually 14 million per tank

That number also includes powepack development, nationalising subsystems, establishing centres etc
 

Baljak

Active member
Moderator
South Korea Moderator
Professional
Messages
132
Reactions
6 692
Nation of residence
South Korea
Nation of origin
South Korea
As I mentioned several times in the forum, the most important thing in Altay's power pack integration process is the transmission, not the engine. The Korean DV27K engine has been tested and certified by the Ministry of National Defense Also, this is not a problem because the Korean engine is designed to withstand up to 70 tons of weight.

From the start of Altay development, the engine planned to be used for Altay was MTU MT-883 Ka-501. because the ROC of Altay's drive system was the same as K2.

The MT-883 Ka-501 engine is a short stroke engine. However, the DV27K engine is a long stroke engine that produces high torque at low RPM. The dry weights of MT-883 ka501 and DV27K are 1,800 kg and 2,550 kg. The short-stroke engine is relatively compact with a small weight, but the long-stroke engine is heavy due to the inherent limitations of the cylinder's structure. Germany has unique technology in the field of 1500hp short-stroke diesel tank engines. Realistically, South Korea's current engine technology cannot develop 1500hp short-stroke tank engines such as the MT-883 Ka-501.

When using the MT-883 Ka-501 engine on the K2, the acceleration was 7 seconds and the DV27K was 8.7 seconds. Altay was also developed as a main battle tank with heavy armor, but the K2 is a mobility tank for operation in mountainous terrain. Anyway, these two engines have different cylinder structures, but they're tank engines with 1500hp, and they have the same maximum speed.

Also, when we talk about the durability of the transmission, we should pay attention to the fact that the Korean transmission is not just a problem of durability, but a design defect. If the durability of the transmission is a problem, the transmission must be redesigned completely, but if it is a defect in a simple part, it can be solved by improving the product.

In addition to the forum, Turks often mention groundless misinformation about Korean power packs on Twitter, and the transmission currently being tested in Altay is a transmission with improved design defects. It is too early for us to judge in advance that Korean power packs do not pass Altay's durability test.
 

Radonsider

Well-known member
Messages
391
Reactions
425
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Bosnia & Herzegovina
As I mentioned several times in the forum, the most important thing in Altay's power pack integration process is the transmission, not the engine. The Korean DV27K engine has been tested and certified by the Ministry of National Defense Also, this is not a problem because the Korean engine is designed to withstand up to 70 tons of weight.

From the start of Altay development, the engine planned to be used for Altay was MTU MT-883 Ka-501. because the ROC of Altay's drive system was the same as K2.

The MT-883 Ka-501 engine is a short stroke engine. However, the DV27K engine is a long stroke engine that produces high torque at low RPM. The dry weights of MT-883 ka501 and DV27K are 1,800 kg and 2,550 kg. The short-stroke engine is relatively compact with a small weight, but the long-stroke engine is heavy due to the inherent limitations of the cylinder's structure. Germany has unique technology in the field of 1500hp short-stroke diesel tank engines. Realistically, South Korea's current engine technology cannot develop 1500hp short-stroke tank engines such as the MT-883 Ka-501.

When using the MT-883 Ka-501 engine on the K2, the acceleration was 7 seconds and the DV27K was 8.7 seconds. Altay was also developed as a main battle tank with heavy armor, but the K2 is a mobility tank for operation in mountainous terrain. Anyway, these two engines have different cylinder structures, but they're tank engines with 1500hp, and they have the same maximum speed.

Also, when we talk about the durability of the transmission, we should pay attention to the fact that the Korean transmission is not just a problem of durability, but a design defect. If the durability of the transmission is a problem, the transmission must be redesigned completely, but if it is a defect in a simple part, it can be solved by improving the product.

In addition to the forum, Turks often mention groundless misinformation about Korean power packs on Twitter, and the transmission currently being tested in Altay is a transmission with improved design defects. It is too early for us to judge in advance that Korean power packs do not pass Altay's durability test.
We got the info of Korean transmission performing not so well in Altay by İbrahim Sünnetçi, but maybe he meant "Not as good as Renk transmission"
 

Manomed

Experienced member
Messages
1,959
Reactions
2,775
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
As I mentioned several times in the forum, the most important thing in Altay's power pack integration process is the transmission, not the engine. The Korean DV27K engine has been tested and certified by the Ministry of National Defense Also, this is not a problem because the Korean engine is designed to withstand up to 70 tons of weight.

From the start of Altay development, the engine planned to be used for Altay was MTU MT-883 Ka-501. because the ROC of Altay's drive system was the same as K2.

The MT-883 Ka-501 engine is a short stroke engine. However, the DV27K engine is a long stroke engine that produces high torque at low RPM. The dry weights of MT-883 ka501 and DV27K are 1,800 kg and 2,550 kg. The short-stroke engine is relatively compact with a small weight, but the long-stroke engine is heavy due to the inherent limitations of the cylinder's structure. Germany has unique technology in the field of 1500hp short-stroke diesel tank engines. Realistically, South Korea's current engine technology cannot develop 1500hp short-stroke tank engines such as the MT-883 Ka-501.

When using the MT-883 Ka-501 engine on the K2, the acceleration was 7 seconds and the DV27K was 8.7 seconds. Altay was also developed as a main battle tank with heavy armor, but the K2 is a mobility tank for operation in mountainous terrain. Anyway, these two engines have different cylinder structures, but they're tank engines with 1500hp, and they have the same maximum speed.

Also, when we talk about the durability of the transmission, we should pay attention to the fact that the Korean transmission is not just a problem of durability, but a design defect. If the durability of the transmission is a problem, the transmission must be redesigned completely, but if it is a defect in a simple part, it can be solved by improving the product.

In addition to the forum, Turks often mention groundless misinformation about Korean power packs on Twitter, and the transmission currently being tested in Altay is a transmission with improved design defects. It is too early for us to judge in advance that Korean power packs do not pass Altay's durability test.
Im confident about korean transmission and engine.
 

Fairon

Active member
Messages
143
Reactions
1 301
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
We got the info of Korean transmission performing not so well in Altay by İbrahim Sünnetçi, but maybe he meant "Not as good as Renk transmission"

Yes but after that the narrative is changed. İbrahim Sünnetçi also suprised by this. Because apparently both of the information(powerpack integration is not going well and it is actually going well) have the same source.

Is this either a misunderstanding or something is changed behind the scenes.

We will see what happens but as it seems until we see the serial produced Altay's we can't be sure of anything.
 

Ecderha

Experienced member
Messages
2,684
Reactions
1 5,197
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
As I mentioned several times in the forum, the most important thing in Altay's power pack integration process is the transmission, not the engine. The Korean DV27K engine has been tested and certified by the Ministry of National Defense Also, this is not a problem because the Korean engine is designed to withstand up to 70 tons of weight.

From the start of Altay development, the engine planned to be used for Altay was MTU MT-883 Ka-501. because the ROC of Altay's drive system was the same as K2.

The MT-883 Ka-501 engine is a short stroke engine. However, the DV27K engine is a long stroke engine that produces high torque at low RPM. The dry weights of MT-883 ka501 and DV27K are 1,800 kg and 2,550 kg. The short-stroke engine is relatively compact with a small weight, but the long-stroke engine is heavy due to the inherent limitations of the cylinder's structure. Germany has unique technology in the field of 1500hp short-stroke diesel tank engines. Realistically, South Korea's current engine technology cannot develop 1500hp short-stroke tank engines such as the MT-883 Ka-501.

When using the MT-883 Ka-501 engine on the K2, the acceleration was 7 seconds and the DV27K was 8.7 seconds. Altay was also developed as a main battle tank with heavy armor, but the K2 is a mobility tank for operation in mountainous terrain. Anyway, these two engines have different cylinder structures, but they're tank engines with 1500hp, and they have the same maximum speed.

Also, when we talk about the durability of the transmission, we should pay attention to the fact that the Korean transmission is not just a problem of durability, but a design defect. If the durability of the transmission is a problem, the transmission must be redesigned completely, but if it is a defect in a simple part, it can be solved by improving the product.

In addition to the forum, Turks often mention groundless misinformation about Korean power packs on Twitter, and the transmission currently being tested in Altay is a transmission with improved design defects. It is too early for us to judge in advance that Korean power packs do not pass Altay's durability test.

Issue was that there ARE two separate OFFICIAL information about "power pack integration process "

1. They said test on Altay tank are almost finish and THERE ARE ISSUE with power pack. Even more they said that power pack transmission FAILED and there are workshop is going on to analysis how this can be overcome.
Government officials said at that time that result is BAD and FAIL.

2. At present government officials saying another things about Korean "power pack integration will be used and integrated to initial Altay production"
Both information contradict each other!?

So at moment I personally have some Reservation about all information Said . Lets wait and see what will happend
 

Cabatli_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,188
Reactions
26 31,459
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Mr Ismail Demir: "We have applied Altay technology to the tanks we have. The capabilities of our tanks are no longer the same as they were 5-6 years ago."
 

Baljak

Active member
Moderator
South Korea Moderator
Professional
Messages
132
Reactions
6 692
Nation of residence
South Korea
Nation of origin
South Korea
Issue was that there ARE two separate OFFICIAL information about "power pack integration process "

1. They said test on Altay tank are almost finish and THERE ARE ISSUE with power pack. Even more they said that power pack transmission FAILED and there are workshop is going on to analysis how this can be overcome.
Government officials said at that time that result is BAD and FAIL.

2. At present government officials saying another things about Korean "power pack integration will be used and integrated to initial Altay production"
Both information contradict each other!?

So at moment I personally have some Reservation about all information Said . Lets wait and see what will happend
I am not ignoring the capabilities of Turkey's engineers, but it is impossible to carry out this power pack integration process independently in Turkey. This may sound offensive, but Turkish engineers have no experience in integrating the 1500hp power pack. Engineers from Hyundai Rotem and transmission developer SNT Dynamics are currently working on Altay's power pack integration process. I can't reveal the detailed source of this content here because the korean reporter who provided the source for me mentioned that it was embargo.

Hyundai Rotem participated in the design of Altay, and it is because they know the best about Korean engines and transmissions. Since Otokar, the developer of the Altay, was excluded from production and further development, it is now Hyundai Rotem that knows best about the structure of the Altay. To be sure, the BMC does not currently have the ability to perform this process independently. As you say, we will see if there are any problems with this integration process and how to solve it. There is no affirmation or denial here.
 
Last edited:

Fighter_35

Well-known member
Messages
374
Reactions
498
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Mr Ismail Demir: "We have applied Altay technology to the tanks we have. The capabilities of our tanks are no longer the same as they were 5-6 years ago."
He first answer the failing of Altay project and handing over Arifiye to BMC!! Now he thinks applying some modernization,which should have been applied to our tanks 10 years ago and even Leo modernization waits decision, will take their failings away!!
All will answer questions when the time comes!! Especially Altay deal and Arifiye hand over! If necessary, state will freeze all money of Ethem Sancak who made millions thx to this Arifiye hand over!!
 

bisbis

Active member
Messages
90
Reactions
61
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Azerbaijan
yeah, acc to claims aselsan pulat aps will be added.
If Pulat apc is to be installed on Leo 2 tanks, the tanks are fully protected from the sides, front and rear. But can the upper side be defended? How defensible.

Leo 2 tanks with Pulat apc Can they cope with a Javelin anti armoue missile? Aselsan should prepare AKKOR Apc as soon as possible.
 

Radonsider

Well-known member
Messages
391
Reactions
425
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Bosnia & Herzegovina
If Pulat apc is to be installed on Leo 2 tanks, the tanks are fully protected from the sides, front and rear. But can the upper side be defended? How defensible.

Leo 2 tanks with Pulat apc Can they cope with a Javelin anti armoue missile? Aselsan should prepare AKKOR Apc as soon as possible.
I recently talked with a Leo2 tanker and he confirmed Pulat APS

You can also install Pulat APS vertically against top attack but to my knowledge TSK didn't install any of them vertically
 

bisbis

Active member
Messages
90
Reactions
61
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Azerbaijan
I have not seen that Pulat Apc is used vertically. M60tms didn't have it.

But now many anti-tank missiles have the ability to attack from above. Therefore, if the Pulat Apc can be used vertically, it should be applied quickly.

However, in the vertical use of Pulat Apc, personnel cannot open the top covers and travel outside while the tank is in motion. Just in case the apc starts and explodes.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom