Combat Analysis + War History

Ryder

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Austrians are just Southern Germans just like Bavarians.

Austrians have always been Germans they only got left out in German unification due to Prussia.

German history since the 1700s has been characterised by the Prussia-Austria rivalry both wanted to control all of Germany. Not to mention both of them were the most powerful German states while Bavaria, Stuttgart, Saxony, Mecklenburg and Hamburg all played second fiddle.
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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Austrians are just Southern Germans just like Bavarians.

Austrians have always been Germans they only got left out in German unification due to Prussia.

German history since the 1700s has been characterised by the Prussia-Austria rivalry both wanted to control all of Germany. Not to mention both of them were the most powerful German states while Bavaria, Stuttgart, Saxony, Mecklenburg and Hamburg all played second fiddle.
That is largely true.
Austria was the dominate power of the HRE for most of the time and a european power for longer than Prussia, though this was mainly due to the connections and status of the Habsburg dynasty, especially with the Spanish empire.

Maybe I'll get into this sometime later, but it would take a while to collect all the sources for it.
 

Manomed

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struggle of what is this ravenman person handicapped? Why should I care about germans or their ideology?
 

Ryder

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That is largely true.
Austria was the dominate power of the HRE for most of the time and a european power for longer than Prussia, though this was mainly due to the connections and status of the Habsburg dynasty, especially with the Spanish empire.

Maybe I'll get into this sometime later, but it would take a while to collect all the sources for it.

Thats true but nobody can deny from 1700s to the 1918 it was Prussia's time to shine. They beaten Austria a lot of times to claim Germany for themselves and led the unification of Germany itself.

Crazy to think that German unification could have went either way with a Prussian dominated one or an Austrian one. But in the end Prussia prevailed. I dont deny the Austrians and the Habsburgs were also a power in their own right. An Austrian dominated Germany today would mean that Southern Germany would be the dominate part with the religion Roman Catholicism being the dominate religion in Germany. But a Prussian led Germany has led to northern Germany being the dominant part of Germany with the Protestant-Lutheran Christianity being the dominant religion of Germany. Germany still has this religious divide of Protestant vs Catholic. Prussians also saw themselves as champions of Protestantism while Austria saw themselves as the champions of Roman Catholicism. Eventhough religion was not the big factor on what made Prussia and Austria as rivals or enemies but it was one lf the various factors on why they were in conflict. Both nations tried to court the various German city states to be part of them.

Ottomans also united most of modern day Turkiye by fighting the various beyliks. Crazy to think one of the Beyliks could have been the ones to be an empire rather than the Ottomans.

Alternate history is interesting because its full of what ifs.
 
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Blackbeardsgoldfish

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Thats true but nobody can deny from 1700s to the 1918 it was Prussia's time to shine. They beaten Austria a lot of times to claim Germany for themselves and led the unification of Germany itself.

Crazy to think that German unification could have went either way with a Prussian dominated one or an Austrian one. But in the end Prussia prevailed. I dont deny the Austrians and the Habsburgs were also a power in their own right. An Austrian dominated Germany today would mean that Southern Germany would be the dominate part with the religion Roman Catholicism being the dominate religion in Germany. But a Prussian led Germany has led to northern Germany being the dominant part of Germany with the Protestant-Lutheran Christianity being the dominant religion of Germany. Germany still has this religious divide of Protestant vs Catholic. Prussians also saw themselves as champions of Protestantism while Austria saw themselves as the champions of Roman Catholicism. Eventhough religion was not the big factor on what made Prussia and Austria as rivals or enemies but it was one lf the various factors on why they were in conflict. Both nations tried to court the various German city states to be part of them.

Ottomans also united most of modern day Turkiye by fighting the various beyliks. Crazy to think one of the Beyliks could have been the ones to be an empire rather than the Ottomans.

Alternate history is interesting because its full of what ifs.
Alternate history is a nice thought exercise, but one shouldn't take it serious. It can be a lot of fun to speculate about the historical what if questions, but you never know all the necessary factors to make a workable theory.

Outside the recorded facts of which government made what decision and which force won a battle, there are so many, many factors that aren't recorded in history books. The people working behind the scenes to make these governments and battles possible, the climatic and economic factors prevailing at the time, customs and beliefs that formed communities, and the logical, moral and societal assumptions that were dominant... things that usually don't get recorded, because there is no clear figure or place to connect them to.
 

Nilgiri

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Germany still has this religious divide of Protestant vs Catholic. Prussians also saw themselves as champions of Protestantism while Austria saw themselves as the champions of Roman Catholicism.

You ever look deeply into the matter that was the 30 years war? Sheesh.
 

Ravenman

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The Wehrmacht build upon multiple things during the 1930s, it was by no means starting anew and rebuilding from scratch. The “Reichswehr” of the Weimar Republic was conceptualized to only allow the best, most competent and most promising soldiers into its ranks. It was build to be an army of officers that would form the nucleus of a new german army once rearmament was possible. It dictated much of the politics of the Weimar Republic and undermined the democratic process wherever it could. Prussian aristocracy and military tradition embedded themselves covertly into every nook and cranny of the new state, waiting for the right opportunity to give Germany back its military might. The industry and economic base needed for rearmament was build on completely unsustainable debt. So much debt that wars of conquest were the only possible source of income that could finance it. The Nazis fully knew this during the 1930s and gambled on the success of their future wars. The first “victim” of german conquests was Austria, which was a country with vast gold reserves, possessing 343,8 Million Reichsmark in Gold, compared to Germany’s 188,6 RM at the end of 1936. This doesn’t include the private holdings of Austrians, which were also taken for rearmament once Austria had been absorbed. (Source for my figures, it's in german)

Offcourse the Wehrmacht was born from the Reichswehr, like the Turkish Armed Forces from today are the successors of the Ottoman Imperial Army. But that was not my point. My point is that they were the finest militairy force (especially the Heer) of Europe and maybe the world on a quality basis, because of their revolutionary doctrines, excellent officer and NCO training, warrior spirit and generalship superior to every adversary they faced.

Trevor Dupuy found that German soldiers had an average effectiveness of 1.55 versus American soldiers.

That means that 1.55 was the rot of the ratio of bloody casualties between German and American encounters in Italy between July 1943 to December 1944 (note that the German army was declining by that time), discounting strength, vulnerability factor and posture factor (attack, prepared defense, hasty defense, fortified defense and delay).

The vulnerability factors were 1.0 for attack, 1.3 for hasty defense, 1.5 for prepared defense, 1.6 for fortified defense.

The score effectiveness ratio by type of division was:

American Infantry vs
German Infantry 1.25
German Panzer Grenadier 1.97
German Panzer 2.40

American Armour vs
German Infantry 1.30
German Panzer 1.76

Average in engagements: 1.55

They had stunning victories - France and Russia (till Stalingrad) and North Arfica. Even on the defensive there were none better. Have a look at the Italian campaign. Then what if the Russians didnt got supplies from the British and the US? It took the UK, the Russians and the US to defeat them.

The German Army never lost a battle when the terms were even. Every Allied general knew that. The Allied Powers made sure to always have better weapons than they did. They also kept control of the air. The Russians put three men in a battle against one German.

"On a man for man basis, German ground soldiers consistently inflicted casualties at about a 50 percent higher rate than they incurred from the opposing British and American troops under all circumstances. This was true when they were attacking and when they were defending, when they had a local numerical superiority and when they did not, when they won and when they lost.”(Trevor Dupuy from the Dupuy Institute)


Blackbeardsgoldfish said:
The german soldier of 1942 was trudging around the vastness of Russia or the Libyan desert and quickly becoming exhausted, his stomach grew ever hungrier and his equipment deteriorated from the ever scarcer supply.

The german soldier of 2022 is better equipped in basically every aspect outside ideological conviction, and can rely on a political leadership that doesn’t waste the lives of millions for its delusions. He doesn’t have to go hungry or march into his doom, and he doesn’t have to fear for his safety and life for speaking up against his nation, politics or purpose.

A battalion of 2022 soldiers would be able to face and defeat a division of 1942 soldiers.

The German soldier maintained an effective defense in Europe for 11 months under constant and unchallenged air attack, bombarded daily by devastating artillery concentrations, facing heavy odds, sustained by a fraction of the supplies and firepower available to the Allied soldier.

The distance between Berlin and Stalingrad was 2000 kilometers. By this point Germany had beaten the Polish Army, the French Army, the Dutch Army, the Belgian Army, the Norwegian Army and the Danish Army. It had chased any British troops from the continent and had captured millions of Russian soldiers.

The very fact that the Wehrmacht was in front of Stalingrad and people are willing to believe that they could have won is testament to the quality and professionalism of the German soldier.

These guys had such a elite aura. Their willpower, innovations, aesthetics, the fire they have in them. They are on another tier compared to modern Europeans.

Uniforms: Hugo Boss
Tank engines: Porsche
Aircraft engines: BMW
Reich/officer cars: Mercedes Benz
Army trucks: Volkswagen

"We defeated the wrong enemy" (General Patton)

The Brandeburger Division known from the Kaharkov-counteroffensive. The heroic parachutists 1. Fallschirm-Jäger-Division known from the infamous Battle of Crete and equipped with the famous FG-42 or the famous Panzergrenadiere-Division-Großdeutschland, which was arguably one of the best equipped Panzer-grenadier divisions of the war. They saw action in both fronts of the war, including the Battle of France & Operation Barbarossa to name a few.

The Bundeswehr from now with their transgender- and female soldiers wouldnt stand a change against the Wehrmacht.
 

Nilgiri

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James Caan recently passed away. May he rest in peace.

This is one scene (with him) that's been etched in me head since I saw it as a kid, the special brotherhood you develop in war like nowhere else.


@Joe Shearer et al.
 
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