If war broke out between Morocco and Algeria.

Test7

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I really enjoy reading this thread. It is full of informative contents..
 

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Both Morocco and Algeria are huge ~40 mln countries with very weak air forces. Their ground forces are more or less equal.
Whats the criteria you use when saying very weak air forces? Jets? Quantity? Training?
 

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Iskander TBM are limited by MTCR regulations for export version, to really hit anything inside Morocco, Iskander battery needs to come close, the footprint is large, with multiple TELs , command vehicle etc .

Convoys of Iskander battery could be detected easily, hence achieving surprise will be hard.

If Morocco smell anything fishy in regards to Iskander posing to diver a first strike, they could disperse their jets all over the country out of harms way. Ukraine did the same in the opening days of the war.

Morocco need to worry more about the Kalibr equipped pr.663 submarines. How good is Moroccan navy ASW ?

Not if they're unable to achieve surprise.

There's very few occasions where surprise elements are met, Barbarossa (1941), Pearl (1941), six day war (1967).

It would be hard to replicate those now with the commercialization of social media and satellite based imagery.

Both side must have their own plan, I'm sure of that, Morocco planned for A while Algeria planned for B. But to quote Von Clausewitz, there's really no plan that survive first contact.

It will be the the armies with the best flexibility of command that will win.

I don't mean to generalize, but developing countries armies, especially in the MENA despite their abundance of weapon, has not prove their mettle in combat. Mostly because most of them are really designed for social control (and vast business interest) and their rigid and outdated command system prevent correct decision by field commanders.

This is why we keep seeing armies in MENA surrendering or outperformed by relatively small but efficient and flexible armies, ranging from non state actors like Isis, Houthis, to conventional armies like Israel.

Initiative and independent thinking are not encouraged, low field commanders would have to ask to the higher ups on what and what not to do.

Even if one side manage to occupy some lands it's questionable if they could move forward since.

Neither do I.
I completely forgot about the regulations for export versions! But even if it had its 500-600 km range it would still be enough to reach most of the millitary bases of morocco.
 

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You mentioned " the same goes for the rest of the deals Which are financed either by French loans or Gulf donations". I call that only cheap talk, or pure propaganda. Most of the deals are not donations or loans! Morocco does use live ammuniton in it exercises, just follow this thread i will post more videos from the african lion exercise taking place now. Yes lets stop discussing the financial matter of the weapons. I never mentioned morocco acquiring himars, tell me where i mentioned himars?????.

However i mentioned M1 abraham sep V3 deal! You say that this is just illusions, and "twitter" talk. You can take a look into this thread: https://defencehub.live/threads/morocco-to-upgrade-abrams-tanks.1836/. The completion date of the delievery is estimated to be completed March 31, 2022. Please just dont talk about things you dont have knowledge about, or atleast dobbel check on the internet before making a empty statement.


You claim that none of the planes posses the same capabalities as the NO11M pesa radar on the algerian SU-30. You realise that morocco will recieve 24 vipers ( 12 Already delievered), and the rest are getting modernized? Those who are not modernized right now at the moment we speak have the APG-68 radar. Do you really make a claim that the NO11M are better then APG-68? Yes morocco lacks electronic warfdare system but dont forget that the Moroccan f16 are also equiped with AIDEWS. Its also reported that morocco will recieve the koral from turkey, but i guess you will call it twitter post. ( Source: TRT ARABI).

Come on bro i cant believe im reading this! Mig-29 M2 better then the Vipers???


I agree with your words when it comes to the ukrainan war except that you mentioned that the war has " Nothing to do with the quality of the weapons". Offcoursae the quality playes a huge role. Thats where i feel you are making big mistakes when comparing the technolgy between the west and the russians. Except that i totally agree with many points you made.


You mentioned now that a conflict between Morocco, and algeria is closer to Armenia-Azeri war, and yes at this moment i do agree! But why did you mention earlier
" Morocco is not a match for Algeria, and it will never be like that". Please think twice before making a statement. I never said that algeria is no match for morocco, or that we are superior in every field. I only mentioned that the moroccan air force will have a edge with the vipers, and the new procurments!
@Chakib larbi Here you go, this is the first post in the thread.
 

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@T-123456 and @AlphaMike was wondering how the armies of the 2 armed forces are training, operating and their experience.

Algeria seem to follow the same millitary doctorine as the russians, and other arab states as egypt and Algeria. Most of their weapons are mainly from Russia, and russia is their biggest ally. I dont find alot of information about exercises algeria have with other states except russia. It would be better if @Chakib larbi talked more about exercises with other states. One critical argument i have to mention is the political system of algeria, where the army is often accused of being de facto ruler of the algerian republic. The result of this are alot of dismissed generals/High ranking members through the years, especially from 2015 untill now. The general are often fired without no reason, or in some case " Corruption". You guys can google this but i will just mention a few names for you.

-intelligence chief Gen. Mediene (2015, after 25 years in service)
- In 2018 president bouteflika fired Said Bey and Lahbib Chentouf ( They both are generals of two millitary disctricts. Algeria had 6 regions back in 2018).
- Major General Mohamed Kaidi
( Fired in late 2021 after algeria accused morocco of killing 3 truck drivers. Prior to the dismissal, Kaidi took part in a long late night meeting chaired by Said Chengriha. Allegedly deep disagreement between kaidi, and other senior officials of millitary high command with the way this security crisis was managed).

This is only a few names, but you guys can find tons of names if you search on the internet. Im only mentioning this to you so you can understand how dismissals at high level will directly affect the rest structure of the armed forces of Algeria. Arab states have often weak leadership, and thats why their armies operate in such a bad way.

When it comes to the experience that the algerian army then i will say the only experience they have is the wars with Morocco, and some insurgency in their country.
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Now Morocco! When it comes to morocco i believe that morocco is ahead of Algeria when it comes to doctorine, training and experience by far!

Morocco seems to lean more of a mixed millitary doctorine. The establishment of the moroccan millitary schools in meknes, and other various millitary institutions have strenghtened the proffesionalism of the Moroccan army, and the rest of the continent. Many officers, and soldiers from all over africa comes to Morocco to get trained. The early wars in sahara between the algerians and the moroccans shaped our way of doctorine in desert warfare. However the main structure and doctorine goes in line with nato structure. The integration and cooperation between Nato, and morocco is increasing aswell. Since early 2000 the relations with the US increased highly, and since then have the US together with nato cooperated with morocco for the past 20+ years with hundreds of exercises, missions, and programs. Everything from naval, air and land assets, aswell as security and intelligence cooperation. i will mention a few:

- NATO’s ISTAR Standards, best practices, and lessons learned, providing critical knowledge to enable greater interoperability with NATO.”
- Nato mission in Kosovo with more then 10 000 moroccan soldiers.
- Nato Interoperability Platform allowing moroccan forces to be trained to standards that will enable them to operate side by side with NATO forces in continuing and upcoming joint regional security initiatives against terrorism.
- Air force mission bombing isis assets in iraq and syria


Morocco also have training, and exercises with countries as France, UK, US, and several other countries yearly. ( Gulf, pakistan+ african countries)
- African lion exercise as host nation together with the US since 2002( Biggest exercise yearly in the continent of africa ) !

Now i have done a brief through regarding the millitary doctorine+ a couple of cooperation events with the US/nato that shapes the armed forces of Morocco. i also have to mention that the intelligence services of morocco is known to be best in the MENA region together with mossad.


Now i will move to the topic of experience. I will list the different wars morocco have been participating in.

- Morocco been in war with the polisario millitia in sahara for the past 50+ years. ( Funded by algeria, cuba, Libya).
- Morocco been in war with algeria in the sandwar in 1963. Morocco pushed more then 400 km into Algeria untill few km from the Tindouf- bechar region. ( including other skirmishes as battle of amgala+ various smaller battles)
- Yemen war 4 years with 6 F16, and 1500 ground troops. ( Special force units, and paratroopers aswell.)
- Kosovo UN/Nato 10 000 soldiers, aswell as troops in central africa.
- -Air force mission bombing isis assets in iraq and syria
- Yom kippur1973 moroccan paratroopers land at golan height, and succesfully capture mount hermon together with the syrians ( Known in the history as brave soldiers fighting. Saddam hussein came to the rescue when a traitor commander of the syrians started retreating! Low casulties reported of the moroccan paratroopers) .
- Shaba war zaire/Congo sending 1000-1500 paratroopers stopping the overthrowing of the goverment orchestrated by Soviet, and Angola. ( Very low casulties)



Moroccan millitary structure, together with the political stability have made Morocco only grow, and morocco will definitly move towards a stronger position in Africa, and north africa with the budget raising to 12.8 billion USD. Our millitary doctorine, intelligence service, training and experience in the field make us confident that we can tackle every challenge! Its a reason why Morocco controlls the hole sahara, while algeria can just fund millitias to slow us down. In the end of the day i see my algerians as my brothers, and i love all my brothers there. I wish thing was different!

I will add a list video of former Algerian colonel Ramdane Hamlate praising morocco, whie critizing the lack of combat experience by the algerian army. I will provide a short summary of what he say in the video.



First the colonel ask the reported to tell him about one mission where the algerian have air force have participated in outside the borders of Algeria. Then he mentions that morocco have been in many missions including air rads against isis, mission in Zaire/Congo with paratroopers, Operation with the french in Northern Mali. Then he ask why do morocco engange in this conflict, and he answers because of readiness, and to gain experience in the "Real" battlefield.

Hope you guys will be happy to see this information, i used a good time of the day to write this, and find the right sources.
@Chakib larbi This is the other post i mentioned to you. Information about doctorine, training and experienxe. The scene is yours brother :)
 

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Morocco has only 23 F-16C jets + 52 very old Mirage F1 and F-5.
Morocco has 23 f16C/D variants that are gonna be modernized to f16 block 72. Morocco recieved its first batch of 12 viper btw.

23 F1 mirage have been upgraded by ASTRAC. The level is upgraded to MF-2000/mirage 2000-5. i will send a link that you can take a look at. They are not the best jets but they not that bad against the algerian air force.

 

Chakib larbi

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I agree that the western power would be worried of a migration crisis if a war would have taken place but energy supplies? Algeria provide cheap gass to italy, while having a diplomatic crisis with the EU right now as we speaking! How can you claim
That algerians have excellent relations when the EU when they recently broke the «friendship treaty» with spain, but later reserved their decision? The EU warned it was prepared to take action to defend the interests of its members, and they are also well known to the algerian support of russia. Thats why the Nigerian-moroccan pipeline are being discussed now with the EU as a solution to the gas crisis made by russia. The reason of the dispute with spain was after spain decided to recognize moroccan sovereignty over sahara, and this only took place after Spain changed to american gas while they before that got supplied 40% of its need from algeria. Algeria lost its reliability because it used its gas as a political card against spain..take that into consideration :)
Regarding Nigerian gas and the Trans-Saharan gas pipeline I leave you with the statement of the Nigerian Minister of Energy :LOL:




The Nigerian pipeline almost reaches the borders of Niger and from there to Algeria


As for the relationship with Spain and the European Union?

Italy does not care at all about Spain and all its concern is the partnership with Algeria


The start of preparations for the Algerian-Italian summit in Algiers. A meeting between the secretaries-general of the foreign ministries of both countries.



A senator in the Spanish Senate calls on the government of #Pedro_Sánchez to take responsibility and reveal the details of the espionage operation carried out by the Moroccan regime using the #Pegasus program and the nature of the information that was stolen.This led to the deterioration of relations with Algeria


📌 Daily @elespanolcom : The Spanish government will not participate in the Dakhla Forum, through which Morocco is trying to involve Madrid in commercial projects in the Western Sahara. 📌 @la_informacion : The President of the Confederation of Spanish Companies calls on Sanchez to find a quick solution to the crisis with Algeria

https://twitter.com/RLehbib/status/1539191894449836032?s=20&t=eIT9u8Fqrm3LA6_Bmhf8_w

🎙🇩🇿🇪🇸 #MadridTV report on the conclusion of important countries in the #European Union such as #Italy and #Germany, economic and energy contracts with #Algeria, taking advantage of the opportunity of the crisis in the relations between the two countries.


and read this and stop ure propaganda this is not an arab forum


Spain's clumsiness with Algeria raises Italy as a European gas center in the midst of the energy crisis Italy, Germany and France move to strengthen their ties with the North African country, one of the main gas producers in the world.


Europe takes advantage of the crisis between Spain and Algeria to close agreements on gas
Italy and Germany have already reached agreements with Algeria

 

Chakib larbi

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@Chakib larbi This is the other post i mentioned to you. Information about doctorine, training and experienxe. The scene is yours brother :)
This subject will be methodical, and not a random one Which means that first we will review the capabilities of the two armies with Pictures, technical information and official sources And we'll start like this : Land forces and special forces - Air Force, Air Defense and Electronic Warfare - And finally, the navy ...

Then we will have enough information and data about the capabilities of the two armies now and in the future, And after it we will discuss according to this information
 

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Regarding Nigerian gas and the Trans-Saharan gas pipeline I leave you with the statement of the Nigerian Minister of Energy :LOL:




The Nigerian pipeline almost reaches the borders of Niger and from there to Algeria


As for the relationship with Spain and the European Union?

Italy does not care at all about Spain and all its concern is the partnership with Algeria


The start of preparations for the Algerian-Italian summit in Algiers. A meeting between the secretaries-general of the foreign ministries of both countries.



A senator in the Spanish Senate calls on the government of #Pedro_Sánchez to take responsibility and reveal the details of the espionage operation carried out by the Moroccan regime using the #Pegasus program and the nature of the information that was stolen.This led to the deterioration of relations with Algeria


📌 Daily @elespanolcom : The Spanish government will not participate in the Dakhla Forum, through which Morocco is trying to involve Madrid in commercial projects in the Western Sahara. 📌 @la_informacion : The President of the Confederation of Spanish Companies calls on Sanchez to find a quick solution to the crisis with Algeria

https://twitter.com/RLehbib/status/1539191894449836032?s=20&t=eIT9u8Fqrm3LA6_Bmhf8_w

🎙🇩🇿🇪🇸 #MadridTV report on the conclusion of important countries in the #European Union such as #Italy and #Germany, economic and energy contracts with #Algeria, taking advantage of the opportunity of the crisis in the relations between the two countries.


and read this and stop ure propaganda this is not an arab forum


Spain's clumsiness with Algeria raises Italy as a European gas center in the midst of the energy crisis Italy, Germany and France move to strengthen their ties with the North African country, one of the main gas producers in the world.


Europe takes advantage of the crisis between Spain and Algeria to close agreements on gas
Italy and Germany have already reached agreements with Algeria

i will remind you once again, you have 2 other posts that are waiting for answers.

I never mentioned the sub saharan gas pipeline through Niger, but you could probably ask yourself why Algeria responded in such a negative way when nigeria together with Ecowas proposed a gas pipeline through west africa, all the way up to Morocco. You, and me should ask ourself why they are choosing such a big route of more then 2 000 km, instead of just passing by Niger :) However yes you mentioned a couple of events taking place that could make algeria export more gas into europe, and its possible! I just stop you when i dont see the truth from you, when you mentioned that Algeria have excellent relations with the EU, when algeria was just a in a crisis with the EU. Come on! I actually realised that alot of your claims of morococo goes in line with what spoksmen/Officials of the algerian goverment say. The Dakhla forum that took place yesterday took place with over 200 investors, aswell as spanish companies. With simple words spain did not attend with their officials, but invited alot of their investors to the forum. Check your sources twice before posting, this is not a arabic forum :)
 

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This subject will be methodical, and not a random one Which means that first we will review the capabilities of the two armies with Pictures, technical information and official sources And we'll start like this : Land forces and special forces - Air Force, Air Defense and Electronic Warfare - And finally, the navy ...

Then we will have enough information and data about the capabilities of the two armies now and in the future, And after it we will discuss according to this information
Unfair from your part. You said with your own words that you will respond " Tommorow" but still you been answering posts left, and right defending the "Image" of algeria. No worries do as you please.(y)
 

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Iskander TBM are limited by MTCR regulations for export version, to really hit anything inside Morocco, Iskander battery needs to come close, the footprint is large, with multiple TELs , command vehicle etc .

Convoys of Iskander battery could be detected easily, hence achieving surprise will be hard.

If Morocco smell anything fishy in regards to Iskander posing to diver a first strike, they could disperse their jets all over the country out of harms way. Ukraine did the same in the opening days of the war.

Morocco need to worry more about the Kalibr equipped pr.663 submarines. How good is Moroccan navy ASW ?
At least we have ballistic and cruise capabilities both in sea and air ... What are the capabilities of Morocco in this field? zero ....
What are Morocco's capabilities in repelling ballistic and cruise attacks?zero ....
What are Morocco's capabilities in retaliation? And in penetrating the Algerian air defense? zero ....

And even if Morocco gain in the future cruise or ballistic capabilities, they will also be limited by the MTCR ...
 

Chakib larbi

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i will remind you once again, you have 2 other posts that are waiting for answers.

I never mentioned the sub saharan gas pipeline through Niger, but you could probably ask yourself why Algeria responded in such a negative way when nigeria together with Ecowas proposed a gas pipeline through west africa, all the way up to Morocco. You, and me should ask ourself why they are choosing such a big route of more then 2 000 km, instead of just passing by Niger :) However yes you mentioned a couple of events taking place that could make algeria export more gas into europe, and its possible! I just stop you when i dont see the truth from you, when you mentioned that Algeria have excellent relations with the EU, when algeria was just a in a crisis with the EU. Come on! I actually realised that alot of your claims of morococo goes in line with what spoksmen/Officials of the algerian goverment say. The Dakhla forum that took place yesterday took place with over 200 investors, aswell as spanish companies. With simple words spain did not attend with their officials, but invited alot of their investors to the forum. Check your sources twice before posting, this is not a arabic forum :)
It doesn't matter what you say Or what the Moroccan regime says? The important thing is that the trans-Saharan gas pipeline will pass from Algeria ... This means Algeria will controls the gas supplies to Europe in the future ..
The second important thing is that Europe does not care about Spain and its crisis with Algeria And European countries such Germany and Italy rush to Algeria for the economic partnership..France we will not talk about it because it will not give up its interests in Algeria for the sake of Spain...Despite this, France really loses its economic interests in Algeria For the benefit of countries such as China, Italy, Germany, Turkey, the United States and even Spain before the crisis ...Therefore, it will not complicate its relationship with Algeria for the sake of Spain...

Besides, no one said thta The Algerian regime said Spain will not participate in the Dakhla Conference ....It's the Spanish press who said that ... you are moroccan you are supposed to speak spanish

FVxO3SxWQAA2v1V.jpg


So as not to take the topic out of its military context If you want more about what the Spanish press and the Spanish political forces are saying about the Spanish-Algerian crisis Just tell me and I'll give you more
 

Chakib larbi

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Unfair from your part. You said with your own words that you will respond " Tommorow" but still you been answering posts left, and right defending the "Image" of algeria. No worries do as you please.(y)
Just advice instead of waiting for an answer to your question, which I will definitely answer It is better that you give us information about the capabilities and equipment of the Moroccan army, as you are supposed to do in such a discussion
 

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At least we have ballistic and cruise capabilities both in sea and air ... What are the capabilities of Morocco in this field? zero ....
What are Morocco's capabilities in repelling ballistic and cruise attacks?zero ....
What are Morocco's capabilities in retaliation? And in penetrating the Algerian air defense? zero ....

And even if Morocco gain in the future cruise or ballistic capabilities, they will also be limited by the MTCR ...
Russia launched about 3000 cruise and ballistic missiles at Ukraine with very little military effect. Moroccan JDAMs will have much more military value.
 

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Russia launched about 3000 cruise and ballistic missiles at Ukraine with very little military effect. Moroccan JDAMs will have much more military value.
Morocco also have harops in the arsenal.
 

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Russia launched about 3000 cruise and ballistic missiles at Ukraine with very little military effect. Moroccan JDAMs will have much more military value.
more value In which role exactly ....In case of defending Morocco against an Algerian invasion Or in the scenario of a Moroccan attack against Algeria?
 

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more value In which role exactly ....In case of defending Morocco against an Algerian invasion Or in the scenario of a Moroccan attack against Algeria?
I think he meant that the impact of the JDAM would be even greater then cruise/Ballistic missiles. With other words precision guided munitions would have a more effective result in the battlefield.
 

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Iskander TBM are limited by MTCR regulations for export version, to really hit anything inside Morocco, Iskander battery needs to come close, the footprint is large, with multiple TELs , command vehicle etc .

Convoys of Iskander battery could be detected easily, hence achieving surprise will be hard.

If Morocco smell anything fishy in regards to Iskander posing to diver a first strike, they could disperse their jets all over the country out of harms way. Ukraine did the same in the opening days of the war.

Morocco need to worry more about the Kalibr equipped pr.663 submarines. How good is Moroccan navy ASW ?

Not if they're unable to achieve surprise.

There's very few occasions where surprise elements are met, Barbarossa (1941), Pearl (1941), six day war (1967).

It would be hard to replicate those now with the commercialization of social media and satellite based imagery.

Both side must have their own plan, I'm sure of that, Morocco planned for A while Algeria planned for B. But to quote Von Clausewitz, there's really no plan that survive first contact.

It will be the the armies with the best flexibility of command that will win.

I don't mean to generalize, but developing countries armies, especially in the MENA despite their abundance of weapon, has not prove their mettle in combat. Mostly because most of them are really designed for social control (and vast business interest) and their rigid and outdated command system prevent correct decision by field commanders.

This is why we keep seeing armies in MENA surrendering or outperformed by relatively small but efficient and flexible armies, ranging from non state actors like Isis, Houthis, to conventional armies like Israel.

Initiative and independent thinking are not encouraged, low field commanders would have to ask to the higher ups on what and what not to do.

Even if one side manage to occupy some lands it's questionable if they could move forward since.

Neither do I.

Agree with you on most points here.

Yup I forgot about the MTCR control to <300 km range.

Looking at map, this puts most of Morocco's western seaboard and critical nodes out of reach of Algeria (from initial starting points).
 

Nilgiri

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Russia launched about 3000 cruise and ballistic missiles at Ukraine with very little military effect. Moroccan JDAMs will have much more military value.

Was it really this number? 3000?

Reports in late april (about 2 months later) state about 1300 launches or so till that point....so definitely in initial phase it was not this number then.

The issue with Ukraine is its very different context. It has a very large array of nodes (for its airforce and especially its army) and they are quite spread out evenly across the country....and they have varying level of air defenses and so on (not to mention the western assistance that came promptly before and during to maximise and augment critical things).

Morocco has much fewer and they are concentrated in a few particular areas.

The geography is one where there are large mostly uninhabited areas prompting this kind of thing compared to the large spread + settled river plains of ukraine.

Foreign power interest is also not as large as Ukraine/Russia one given I would think most wargaming done by interested parties give limited results in the border regions at best (compared to say mass warfare potential, capitulation, geopolitical strategy etc).

I think MTCR range control is the biggest impediment to Algerian iskandar threat value....because other than that its much more expensive for Morocco to hedge/spread things given the geography, logistics and foreign power interest/involvement compared to say Ukraine.
 
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