Pakistan Imran Khan Arrested.

Merzifonlu

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It is comedy that the Pakistani corrupt establishment, which is full of corruption with all its members, arrested Imran Khan on charges of corruption. The tragic thing is that there are deaths and injuries in protests. But the most terrifying thing for me is that the country where all this is happening has nuclear capability. In short, this is a terrifying tragedy-comedy!

I hope common sense will prevail in the country as soon as possible. I'm not very hopeful though. In my opinion, all countries in the Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan triangle are failed states. They sank together. If they are capable of swimming, they will swim together in future.
 
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Nilgiri

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It comes at worst time possible for their grave economic condition, brought about by same establishment playing fiddle for musical chairs game while Rome burns.

But this has been process set in motion a long time, atrophying of a protected class in politics (thus they do all they can to protect their cushy existence, no matter the cost on the larger population).....when politics needs some measure of Augean stable cleanse from time to time. Basically lessons were not learned and egos have festered and grown to a very large degree.
 

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It comes at worst time possible for their grave economic condition, brought about by same establishment playing fiddle for musical chairs game while Rome burns.

But this has been process set in motion a long time, atrophying of a protected class in politics (thus they do all they can to protect their cushy existence, no matter the cost on the larger population).....when politics needs some measure of Augean stable cleanse from time to time. Basically lessons were not learned and egos have festered and grown to a very large degree.
+1 Absolutly agree with you.

As such, Pakistan is a source of great trouble for both its friends and enemies.

For example, India will have to prepare for the worst, as it is unpredictable what Pakistan will do in this situation, and this is extremely costly.

Pakistan in this state is also a problem for Turkiye as it will direct India's anger (You Turks support these vagrants in all 4 seasons, says some Indians I know) to Turkiye.

If this blindness continues, the establishment of Pakistan, the Pakistani state will first collapse economically and then politically disintegrate.
 

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Cabal is the root of all evil. Assassinating the heads would be best solution. But it's strange the military doesn't take action, unless they're just as infested with cabal.
 

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+1 Absolutly agree with you.

As such, Pakistan is a source of great trouble for both its friends and enemies.

For example, India will have to prepare for the worst, as it is unpredictable what Pakistan will do in this situation, and this is extremely costly.

Pakistan in this state is also a problem for Turkiye as it will direct India's anger (You Turks support these vagrants in all 4 seasons, says some Indians I know) to Turkiye.

If this blindness continues, the establishment of Pakistan, the Pakistani state will first collapse economically and then politically disintegrate.
I don't profess a deep knowledge of Pakistan or the subcontinent in general. But I believe one of the root causes of Pakistan's woes is the immense and, some would argue, irreconcilable ethnic differences. Turkish internationalists (green or red) always beat us nationalists over the head with "Turkey is a mosaic" BS, but look at that map. As far as being a mosaic goes, Pakistan is the real deal. Now, being an ethnically diverse nation does not mean civil strife %100 of the time. But when you account for overpopulation, poverty, bleak economic future, mismanagement, tribal structures, chaotic neigbours... It's not looking good I tell you. Pakistan desperately needs a unifying national identity, and those don't grow on trees. You need a strong and clever leader with a vision and means to achieve his goals.

That's why I thank the creator every day for Atatürk.
 

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GoatsMilk

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I don't profess a deep knowledge of Pakistan or the subcontinent in general. But I believe one of the root causes of Pakistan's woes is the immense and, some would argue, irreconcilable ethnic differences. Turkish internationalists (green or red) always beat us nationalists over the head with "Turkey is a mosaic" BS, but look at that map. As far as being a mosaic goes, Pakistan is the real deal. Now, being an ethnically diverse nation does not mean civil strife %100 of the time. But when you account for overpopulation, poverty, bleak economic future, mismanagement, tribal structures, chaotic neigbours... It's not looking good I tell you. Pakistan desperately needs a unifying national identity, and those don't grow on trees. You need a strong and clever leader with a vision and means to achieve his goals.

That's why I thank the creator every day for Atatürk.

I hate to think about it and i hate to bring it up but i feel the political islamists are going to drown Turkiye the same way most of these Muslim majority nations have been drowned by stupid and corrupt politics.

We are heading into an election and instead of thinking about the economy, the vision for the future. How the nation can be improved and elevated, everything turned into a hate filled sectarian battle. Everyone's the enemy combined with fear mongering that if you dont vote for the current losers, the next set of losers will sell the nation out.

We exist in a world where Turkiye faces so many real threats and enemies from the USA to Russia, from the EU to the gulf states. But so much energy has been diverted to making the people of the nation hate each other so that political islamists can benefit from it.

We are in a nightmare and most of the nation thinks they are achieving.

If i was an enemy of the Muslim world, i would flood these countries with as much "political islam" as possible, that way they will destroy themselves. If i were India and i really wanted to destabilise Pakistan i would push money towards all the islamist sects, they will all claim that one is better then other and ultimately destroy each other.
 

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For some reason I was under the impression that Imran Khan had been ages ago but then I haven't been keeping up with Pakistani politics.
Cabal is the root of all evil. Assassinating the heads would be best solution. But it's strange the military doesn't take action, unless they're just as infested with cabal.
In Pakistan, military IS the cabal.
 

Nilgiri

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For some reason I was under the impression that Imran Khan had been ages ago but then I haven't been keeping up with Pakistani politics.

In Pakistan, military IS the cabal.

He has a solid support base (somewhere in 30 - 50% range of population)....so he won't be receding that easily at all....because lot of folks identify him as taking on the establishment and attempting to reset the political scene etc (whether he is or isn't is another larger topic)

In a way its similar to Trump in the US....and some correlation is there in persecution by the "deep state" there as well (deepstates always prefer the devil you know vs the devil you dont know as far as possible....and sometimes big fly in the ointment comes up or are even grown by them unwittingly)

Of course the relative systems, intensities and inertias involved are very different in the end.

It is far more polarised, crystallised and brittle in Pakistan's case and exacted on a far less socioeconomically developed population on top (and at a very early juncture - barely a year after nationstate formation).

The key thing with people like Ataturk, Washington or even Nehru is that they (and their close confidantes and other founding fathers etc) stuck around long enough to impress upon the trajectory and institutions of the early nationstate to be carried forward.

In Pakistan's case Jinnah unfortunately passed away quite quickly and he wasn't even able to impact the constituent assembly process on some crucial matters (that would then pave the way for political turbulence and then the military quickly stepping in and occupying the mantle it does now - that it simply will not relinquish or compromise on).

i.e The big difference is there is absolutely no way to come to power in Pakistan right now without its deepstate's (high military command) approval and then there are strict rules to play by (that Imran Khan agreed to, benefitted from ....but then started to upset in the latter half of his tenure).

Neither is the Pakistani deepstate a monolith, there are pro Imran Khan factions within it (that got overruled in recent years), but they will not turn against the rest of their establishment to really help him (given what that would entail)....at least not yet.

There is immense trust deficit in Pakistan's politics between military - civilian politician - oligarchs - laypeople/citizenry because of this long term atrophying from the long term system of coercion in operation by the 1st circle of this on the other circles.
 

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These days Some Pakistanis on social media are comparing current political crisis with 1970 and Imran Khan with Sheikh Mujeeb. Lmao.

Did you guys came across any of it?
@Nilgiri

Some even thinks we actually did a good job by parting from Pakistan.



Also, this short video just came in my box. I liked it.


For those who are interested in past-present of Pakistani politics, I would really recommend this channel.
 
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In this mess, it would be very good if Pakistan was led by a group that would destroy the political Islamists. If secularism, democracy and the rule of law prevailed in the country...

I think the same for Iran.
 

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We are heading into an election and instead of thinking about the economy, the vision for the future. How the nation can be improved and elevated, everything turned into a hate filled sectarian battle.
And thats why i think that no matter who wins Turkey already lost.
 

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In this mess, it would be very good if Pakistan was led by a group that would destroy the political Islamists. If secularism, democracy and the rule of law prevailed in the country...

I think the same for Iran.
99% of Pakistanis dont want secularism, they see it as westernising without understanding the concept, you can not impose a regime if this much of the population despises it.
The situation there and rest of the islamic world will stay despicable as long as illiteracy keeps ruling it.
 

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99% of Pakistanis dont want secularism, they see it as westernising without understanding the concept, you can not impose a regime if this much of the population despises it.
The situation there and rest of the islamic world will stay despicable as long as illiteracy keeps ruling it.
For the People, Despite the People:cool:
 

Afif

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99% of Pakistanis dont want secularism, they see it as westernising without understanding the concept, you can not impose a regime if this much of the population despises it.

Sorry, but this is an oversimplification.

(On a side note- just some opinions polls is usually not good enough to judge any socio-cultural environment due the simple fact that, human societies function in an incredibly complex manner)

In these disscusions it is important to know Pakistan's pre-1979 history, so a comprehensive understanding of the contemporary situation can be reached.

In my opinion, at that very time Pakistan made a decades-long colossal mistake that change its socio-cultual environment in way that it became almost unsalvageable.

When soviet invasion of Afghanistan began, with America's blessing and Saudi funding Pakistani state started using religious propaganda as war fighting strategy to encourage and mobilize illiterate and deeply conservative population into a holy war to assist anti-soviet resistance.

Many so called madrassas were founded with Saudi funding where poor children and youth were radicalized.

As a geopolitical and warfighting strategy it seemed successful at first, but by the end of the decade when war ended, this onimous program got too big and became a self-sustaining social phenomenon even if Pakistani state didn't want it be.

And after that, the civil war and establishment of taliban's 'Emirate' keep fueling this radicalizarion program in the region. ultimately it bit the hand that was feeding it.
9/11 happened and America's war on terror began.

The generation that grew up in the holy war's spirit against soviet invasion join the fight big bad America. And the War continued for next two more decades in Afghanistan and in Pakistan (CIA's drone program)
Another generation grew up in the spirit of holy war.

And more ironically and indeed fatally, Pakistani military stablishment kept the Taliban under its wing as a 'strategic depth' against India and a bargaining chip against USA.
Obviously this strategy later backfired on Pakistan and almost led to civil war.




Of course, there are also other contributing factors to current Social environment in Pakistan. The fact that it is a multi-ethnic country hence tribalism, high level of poverty and illiteracy, massive corruption thus failure of education system, etc.

However my point being, even with all those factors stated above, Pakistani society would've been still better off if this four decades of conflict hence systemic radicalization didn't occur.

The situation there and rest of the islamic world will stay despicable as long as illiteracy keeps ruling it.

Why does it feels like you are looking down on everybody else?

You know, it is not only Turkey that has been socially modernized among Muslim countries.

Apart from Turkey, there are other muslim countries that also has undergone more or less relatively succefull social modernization.

Even just in South East Asia when it comes to social development, BD, Indonesia and Malaysia is considerably different than Pakistan.

I urge you to be more precise in these matters.

Overgeneralisation is not a productive way to engage in sensitive topics.
 
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Xenon54

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Sorry, but this is an oversimplification.

(On a side note- just some opinions polls is usually not good enough to judge any socio-cultural environment due the simple fact that, human societies function in an incredibly complex manner)

In these disscusions it is important to know Pakistan's pre-1979 history, so a comprehensive understanding of the contemporary situation can be reached.

In my opinion, at that very time Pakistan made a decades-long colossal mistake that change its socio-cultual environment in way that it became almost unsalvageable.

When soviet invasion of Afghanistan began, with America's blessing and Saudi funding Pakistani state started using religious propaganda as war fighting strategy to encourage and mobilize illiterate and deeply conservative population into a holy war to assist anti-soviet resistance.

Many so called madrassas were founded with Saudi funding where poor children and youth were radicalized.

As a geopolitical and warfighting strategy it seemed successful at first, but by the end of the decade when war ended, this onimous program got too big and became a self-sustaining social phenomenon even if Pakistani state didn't want it be.

And after that, the civil war and establishment of taliban's 'Emirate' keep fueling this radicalizarion program in the region. ultimately it bit the hand that was feeding it.
9/11 happened and America's war on terror began.

The generation that grew up in the holy war's spirit against soviet invasion join the fight big bad America. And the War continued for next two more decades in Afghanistan and in Pakistan (CIA's drone program)
Another generation grew up in the spirit of holy war.

And more ironically and indeed fatally, Pakistani military stablishment kept the Taliban under its wing as a 'strategic depth' against India and a bargaining chip against USA.
Obviously this strategy later backfired on Pakistan and almost led to civil war.




Of course, there are also other contributing factors to current Social environment in Pakistan. The fact that it is a multi-ethnic country hence tribalism, high level of poverty and illiteracy, massive corruption thus failure of education system, etc.

However my point being, even with all those factors stated above, Pakistani society would've been still better off if this four decades of conflict hence systemic radicalization didn't occur.



Why does it feels like you are looking down on everybody else?

You know, it is not only Turkey that has been socially modernized among Muslim countries.

Apart from Turkey, there are other muslim countries that also has undergone more or less relatively succefull social modernization.

Even just in South East Asia when it comes to social development, BD, Indonesia and Malaysia is considerably different than Pakistan.

I urge you to be more precise in these matters.

Overgeneralisation is not a productive way to engage in sensitive topics.
I critisized the situation of Turkey differently just one post above, why dont you read that first before accusing me of looking down at others?
Turkeys situation is not much better since akp took power, it reached a point where the state has been reduced to banana republic with religious undertones.

Thats just the sad reality of anywhere where political islam touches.

Still think i am looking down at others?
 

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Pakistan has many ethnic groups and tribes.

It made sense to make Islam as the force that unites the nation.

What happened next was oh shit how do we unite the country under a single language because not everybody speaks Urdu. Also Lahore and Karachi will be ruling the country another problem for a person who lives up in the Himalayas. And you know in a nation state if you have tribes you will have tribes who oppose your nation you know a tribal elder will be saying we lived like this for centuries who are you to tell me what to do.

When Pakistan was founded it actually had numerous tribal rebellions because it tried to intergrate them into the newly founded nation. Nation States and Tribalism will always colllide and clash.

In this mess, it would be very good if Pakistan was led by a group that would destroy the political Islamists. If secularism, democracy and the rule of law prevailed in the country...

I think the same for Iran.

Western educated elites basically ruled Pakistan as their own feudal kingdom.

Same story with every post colonial country all the Western educated elites left the country in a destitute state while laundering money overseas.

Religious crowd tookover basically continued the same because you know why the mentality stays the same.

They could careless about the country but only care about their own needs.

Pakistan has no sense unity if one gets taken down they flee the country with their wealth.

Military has able to rule this land because Pakistanis themselves believe the military is the only source of stability in a otherwise broken country.

You either end up with a secular dictatorship, military dictatorship or a Islamic dictatorship. One takes down the other and the same old corruption continues.
 
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Ryder

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Sorry, but this is an oversimplification.

(On a side note- just some opinions polls is usually not good enough to judge any socio-cultural environment due the simple fact that, human societies function in an incredibly complex manner)

In these disscusions it is important to know Pakistan's pre-1979 history, so a comprehensive understanding of the contemporary situation can be reached.

In my opinion, at that very time Pakistan made a decades-long colossal mistake that change its socio-cultual environment in way that it became almost unsalvageable.

When soviet invasion of Afghanistan began, with America's blessing and Saudi funding Pakistani state started using religious propaganda as war fighting strategy to encourage and mobilize illiterate and deeply conservative population into a holy war to assist anti-soviet resistance.

Many so called madrassas were founded with Saudi funding where poor children and youth were radicalized.

As a geopolitical and warfighting strategy it seemed successful at first, but by the end of the decade when war ended, this onimous program got too big and became a self-sustaining social phenomenon even if Pakistani state didn't want it be.

And after that, the civil war and establishment of taliban's 'Emirate' keep fueling this radicalizarion program in the region. ultimately it bit the hand that was feeding it.
9/11 happened and America's war on terror began.

The generation that grew up in the holy war's spirit against soviet invasion join the fight big bad America. And the War continued for next two more decades in Afghanistan and in Pakistan (CIA's drone program)
Another generation grew up in the spirit of holy war.

And more ironically and indeed fatally, Pakistani military stablishment kept the Taliban under its wing as a 'strategic depth' against India and a bargaining chip against USA.
Obviously this strategy later backfired on Pakistan and almost led to civil war.




Of course, there are also other contributing factors to current Social environment in Pakistan. The fact that it is a multi-ethnic country hence tribalism, high level of poverty and illiteracy, massive corruption thus failure of education system, etc.

However my point being, even with all those factors stated above, Pakistani society would've been still better off if this four decades of conflict hence systemic radicalization didn't occur.



Why does it feels like you are looking down on everybody else?

You know, it is not only Turkey that has been socially modernized among Muslim countries.

Apart from Turkey, there are other muslim countries that also has undergone more or less relatively succefull social modernization.

Even just in South East Asia when it comes to social development, BD, Indonesia and Malaysia is considerably different than Pakistan.

I urge you to be more precise in these matters.

Overgeneralisation is not a productive way to engage in sensitive topics.

People forget how complex South Asian politics is.

I think Jinnah's plan was to make a Muslim state some said a secular state.

Many said that Jinnah was undecided because he had to balance the two out but how will he bevauae he has to appease liberals, muslims, religious crowd and the secular crowd.

One wants a Muslim state the other wants a Secular state.

Israel is another similar story when Ben Gurion founded Israel the real question is will it be Jewish state or Secular State.

Fun fact people should realise the Ottoman millet system is still used in the Israeli Political System.
 

Afif

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People forget how complex South Asian politics is.

I think Jinnah's plan was to make a Muslim state some said a secular state.

Many said that Jinnah was undecided because he had to balance the two out but how will he bevauae he has to appease liberals, muslims, religious crowd and the secular crowd.

One wants a Muslim state the other wants a Secular state.

Israel is another similar story when Ben Gurion founded Israel the real question is will it be Jewish state or Secular State.

Fun fact people should realise the Ottoman millet system is still used in the Israeli Political System.

So the thing is even though jinnah was declared 'the Fouding father of Pakistan', with all due respect to him (in truth) Pakistan actually has multiple founding fathers if we take into consideration everything significant in formation of Pakistan since the founding moment of 'All India Muslim League' in Dhaka 1906 to Lahore resolution 1940.

In this sense, even after jinnah died so early Pakistan was still salvageable.
The great leaders like A.K Fazlul Huq and Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy were still there. (Both are Bengalis)

I still believe The realistic framework to solve Pakistan's tribal and ethic minorities problems could've been implemented in early 20 years, if only West Pakistan and East Pakistan could've gotten along.

But unfortunately things unfolded the way it did and brutal military dictatorship ruined everything.

And also by the way, during 1970s Turkey (along with majority of Muslims counties) really did a bad job supporting Pakistan's illegal military dictators against legal and democratic authority, the Prime Minister-elect Sheikh Mujibur Rahman in its brutal war on its own people.
 

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