India In its own interest, India should bail out Pakistan

Jackdaws

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Wouldn't you agree that there are many grievances in India and they can be exploited? Maybe a little fact like 200 milions of Muslims who in many areas consist majority? You it is all fine to have ambition, dreams and you can think what you can do and what expect from that. There are 2 facts though 1 can you do it , very unlikely, you got to be logical here. You can find temporary alliance but it doesn't mean that Balochs dislike you less then Pakistanis. British could often do it and you don't have that mind, British ain't dreamers.
2 If you play that unlikely card , well realistically Pakistan has much bigger and more realistic card then you. As as I can see Pakistanis are pretty good at it and that card will always have more loyalty to them then yours for you.
Didn't you get any lessons from Afghanistan.
I honestly think that if you want something good for yourself that you should play things differently.
This is really friendly advice
Greivances in India aren't separatist in nature except in some pockets in the North East.

To exploit any grievances, you need resources. To deploy resources, you need money. Pakistan is nearly bankrupt.

No one cares whether separatist Baloch or Sindhis like India. It is irrelevant.
 

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Members are advised to read the rules and not use inflammatory language and ad-hominem on entire countries.
 

Nilgiri

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Greivances in India aren't separatist in nature except in some pockets in the North East.

To exploit any grievances, you need resources. To deploy resources, you need money. Pakistan is nearly bankrupt.

No one cares whether separatist Baloch or Sindhis like India. It is irrelevant.

To be perfectly honest, we heard all this hyper-islamist claptrap during the East Pakistan episode already.

1000 year rule blah blah blah while they (Pak establishment and lackeys) commited mass atrocities on the East Pakistan civilian population.

Then they "bravely" folded the way they did......whole PA divisions in Dhaka surrendering to an advance brigade of IA being just one example.

Knowing full well what would happen to them under the hands of fellow muslims in East Pakistan if they were turned over to them (for doing what they did after the Takfiri pronounced on Bengali majority of the country).

Suddenly IA became these Ghazis only ticket home....and another certain behaviour quickly followed (pictures and accounts of it will be too long to get into)....quite different to the chest thumping and mass murder one prior to it.

In any case like @Rajaraja Chola says, our issue should be with their toxic establishment......rather than their larger people.

No finger will be moved to help that establishment one iota, that too for messes they created themselves (in their blind hate, and blind stupidity)

Just this year so far has had some noticeable ones:


- TTA/TTP (given Taliban buddies in power now in AFG) actions taking real toll along with BLA/BLF

- The massive political "drama" that unfolded w.r.t PM change....and all the conspiracy theories involved in it (several directed negatively against their establishment)

- Their continued sustained economic hemorrhaging, fuelled by bad debt intake (and no results that matter) from PRC.

- The wake up call on how Turks perceive the Pakistanis that have made their way to Turkey to stick around doing what some number of them do. (One can read this on this very forum for themselves).


Tbh, @Gessler is correct, we need to sit back, focus on ourselves (and learn looking at their actions when their establishment was "Stronger").....

Simply put a strong Pak establishment is not in our interests. Let them degrade, they are doing the job for us.

Hope Pakistani common people can do better job in whatever more genuine setup can be done in future.

The power-cabals Islamist Objective resolutions (in 1949 after Jinnah died) and all that cascaded from it is clearly not working for them...but thats on them to fix too.


In mean time its imperative we add further trillions to the 1 trillion USD in savings we have.

The example of one stuck at 20 billion dollars (for their population size) and its larger stagnation effect is right there to the west of us to not do.
 

Ryder

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To be perfectly honest, we heard all this hyper-islamist claptrap during the East Pakistan episode already.

1000 year rule blah blah blah while they (Pak establishment and lackeys) commited mass atrocities on the East Pakistan civilian population.

Then they "bravely" folded the way they did......whole PA divisions in Dhaka surrendering to an advance brigade of IA being just one example.

Knowing full well what would happen to them under the hands of fellow muslims in East Pakistan if they were turned over to them (for doing what they did after the Takfiri pronounced on Bengali majority of the country).

Suddenly IA became these Ghazis only ticket home....and another certain behaviour quickly followed (pictures and accounts of it will be too long to get into)....quite different to the chest thumping and mass murder one prior to it.

In any case like @Rajaraja Chola says, our issue should be with their toxic establishment......rather than their larger people.

No finger will be moved to help that establishment one iota, that too for messes they created themselves (in their blind hate, and blind stupidity)

Just this year so far has had some noticeable ones:


- TTA/TTP (given Taliban buddies in power now in AFG) actions taking real toll along with BLA/BLF

- The massive political "drama" that unfolded w.r.t PM change....and all the conspiracy theories involved in it (several directed negatively against their establishment)

- Their continued sustained economic hemorrhaging, fuelled by bad debt intake (and no results that matter) from PRC.

- The wake up call on how Turks perceive the Pakistanis that have made their way to Turkey to stick around doing what some number of them do. (One can read this on this very forum for themselves).


Tbh, @Gessler is correct, we need to sit back, focus on ourselves (and learn looking at their actions when their establishment was "Stronger").....

Simply put a strong Pak establishment is not in our interests. Let them degrade, they are doing the job for us.

Hope Pakistani common people can do better job in whatever more genuine setup can be done in future.

The power-cabals Islamist Objective resolutions (in 1949 after Jinnah died) and all that cascaded from it is clearly not working for them...but thats on them to fix too.


In mean time its imperative we add further trillions to the 1 trillion USD in savings we have.

The example of one stuck at 20 billion dollars (for their population size) and its larger stagnation effect is right there to the west of us to not do.

My best friend is Pakistani we talked about the Pakistan vs Bangladesh's issue. He talked about his point of view saying Bangladesh broke away because we did stupid mistakes like imposing Urdu and denying their identity. He believed the defeat and losing Bangladesh largely due to Pakistan. He believed it was self inflicted.
 

Jackdaws

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My best friend is Pakistani we talked about the Pakistan vs Bangladesh's issue. He talked about his point of view saying Bangladesh broke away because we did stupid mistakes like imposing Urdu and denying their identity. He believed the defeat and losing Bangladesh largely due to Pakistan. He believed it was self inflicted.
"Broke away"??
It was liberated. Took a fortnight despite American assistance to Pakistan.
Pakistan Army showed it was kinda the polar opposite of the Ukrainian Army. Didn't bother defending own territory. Just gave up half their country in a fortnight.
 

Ryder

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"Broke away"??
It was liberated. Took a fortnight despite American assistance to Pakistan.
Pakistan Army showed it was kinda the polar opposite of the Ukrainian Army. Didn't bother defending own territory. Just gave up half their country in a fortnight.

Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.
 

Indian gir lion

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Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.
Hehehe mate , india would not have e allowed any peaceful solution
They supported insurgency in indian north east since 60s .
Both they and China
Imagine another Pakistan on our eastern side , it would have been a security nightmare for us.
 

Ryder

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Hehehe mate , india would not have e allowed any peaceful solution
They supported insurgency in indian north east since 60s .
Both they and China
Imagine another Pakistan on our eastern side , it would have been a security nightmare for us.

Thats why Pakistan self inflicted it themselves. I doubt India would have stayed Neutral you always intervene when there is an advantage.

Thats why 1971 could have been avoided not only did Pakistan lose Bangladesh they suffered a defeat in the hands of India. 90k pows is pretty bad itself.
 

Indian gir lion

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Thats why Pakistan self inflicted it themselves. I doubt India would have stayed Neutral you always intervene when there is an advantage.

Thats why 1971 could have been avoided not only did Pakistan lose Bangladesh they suffered a defeat in the hands of India. 90k pows is pretty bad itself.
93 000 it is mate
Let me tell you few more things .
Pakistani societies character before 71 was not like today , I mean they were islamists but still quite liberal and somewhat secular.
After 71 though, Pakistani society underwent a massive change.
A new subject called Pakistan studies was added , thousands of madrasas opened and soviet invasion of Afghanistan too led to increase in radicalisaton among them.
General zia ul haq , an Indian whose parents migrated to pakistan was instrumental in this change of character.
The society turned more islamic, more puritanical etc .
Then the next door neighbor called india was public enemy no 1 , they openly proclaimed their new strategy of bleeding india through 1000 cuts ,o know they were and still are agitated and angry.
India sailed through.
They tried their bs in indian state of Punjab, a decade long insurgency ensued indian forces prevailed and since last 30 years punjab is at peace , the militancy in kashmir is also waning down from previous dangerous levels.
Pakistanis just dont have money to do much now , their refineries have closed down for last 3 weeks as their is very less forex available to them .
The islamic character of Pakistan you see today is a 80s creation.
So much so, that in 99 a conflict called kargil war happened .
The Pakistanis ambushed a patrol party led by captain saurabh kalia and his company
They fought till their ammo was exhausted, then they surrendered after all its not a big deal during war time to be taken as a pow .
These fellows were brutally tortured during 30 days of captivity. Cigarette burns all over the body, their penis chopped off , face burned with acid , marks of electrocution. , eardrums punctured etc and finally shot dead

This incident was a water shed moment, any respect indian military had for their pakistani counterparts was evaporated, now there were no limits to actions .
Soon head hunting missions became very common on the line of control. If they came and killed 3 of ours we did same with 6 of theirs .
Keeping their heads ofcourse. The whole affair from 99 till late 2000s was a grim , very grim.
As for captain kalia , the bastards who tortured him and his men , were duly identified and dispatched in the same manner .
People may want peace with them, but not us .
Its not only government hates Pakistan, the general public hates them too much more than government now .
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.
The Ausgleich of 1867 didn't come about because it was in the best interest of Austria and Hungary, it came out of an Austrian fear or the empire breaking apart/into civil war. After Prussia gave us a good beating, the Hungarians saw their chance in a renewed attempt at breaking free, which was only averted because of the Habsburg's decision to make them equal to Austrians(something that didn't come lightly).
The Hungarians hadn't forgotten the severe crackdown of 1848, many of those that fought during it still alive and thirsting for revenge. It wasn't as easy as you make it out to be here.

Regarding the implementation of a similar system in West and East Pakistan... I don't think that this would have really been logistically possible with India standing between the two halves, let alone imaginable to the West Pak elite.

The comparison to the AH empire isn't a fitting one here, I think. Especially considering the genocidal acts of the West Pak army in Bangladesh, something that the Austrians, for all their many crimes in the occupied nations during the AH period, can't be said to have done.
 

Ryder

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The Ausgleich of 1867 didn't come about because it was in the best interest of Austria and Hungary, it came out of an Austrian fear or the empire breaking apart/into civil war. After Prussia gave us a good beating, the Hungarians saw their chance in a renewed attempt at breaking free, which was only averted because of the Habsburg's decision to make them equal to Austrians(something that didn't come lightly).
The Hungarians hadn't forgotten the severe crackdown of 1848, many of those that fought during it still alive and thirsting for revenge. It wasn't as easy as you make it out to be here.

Regarding the implementation of a similar system in West and East Pakistan... I don't think that this would have really been logistically possible with India standing between the two halves, let alone imaginable to the West Pak elite.

The comparison to the AH empire isn't a fitting one here, I think. Especially considering the genocidal acts of the West Pak army in Bangladesh, something that the Austrians, for all their many crimes in the occupied nations during the AH period, can't be said to have done.

Humans cant treat their fellow man as equals. Typical!!
 

Nilgiri

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My best friend is Pakistani we talked about the Pakistan vs Bangladesh's issue. He talked about his point of view saying Bangladesh broke away because we did stupid mistakes like imposing Urdu and denying their identity. He believed the defeat and losing Bangladesh largely due to Pakistan. He believed it was self inflicted.

Good friend. I have Pakistani friends like that too.

I almost never have issues with Pakistanis who call out mistakes their establishment did....and then I find them more credible when they come after our establishment too for whichever criticism....I listen and debate them genuinely....if such topics are even brought up.

I respect consistency and honesty. Folks like that often become my friends and bros.
 

Nilgiri

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Still broke away became an independant country.

If Pakistan thought of a Austro-Hungarian like system things would have been different even if Bangladesh broke away in the future 1971 could have been avoided.

The issue is what the objective resolution, terrible first gaggle of civilian leadership and early usurpation of power by military dictator did to Pakistan.

Establishment oriented to some kind of quasi-Prussian approach when the state of identities was clearly not ready in recently formed country (whereas prussians knew what German identity was a very long time already).

This is why its so important to get early formation and cohesion so correct, you dont want things too tight or too loose but just right (w.r.t what you have inherited or recently formed with a population).
 
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