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HTurk

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Totally agree with this and I am trying to fix it. But it requires removing the EU and USA from Britain, totally rebuilding the British armed forces and restoring the English ruling class to power. The Ruling class in Britain hasn't done anything in the interests of the British people since the Napoleonic wars. Trade agreements never help anyone, on a case by case, business basis it can work. Like Sweden has wood, Britain needs wood and we give them sand from the Scottish seabed to build their buildings. But in terms of industry and sector wide trade agreements, they are terrible for Britain and always have been.
This is historically not correct and I think you know this. The UK voluntarily made this decision to value high finance over industrial production. You took the steps that ruined your industrial base without anybody pushing you to go down this terrible path. FTAs aren't the problem here, in fact many more nations have benefited from free trade than vice versa.

Your arguments are weak.
 

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Totally agree with this and I am trying to fix it. But it requires removing the EU and USA from Britain, totally rebuilding the British armed forces and restoring the English ruling class to power. The Ruling class in Britain hasn't done anything in the interests of the British people since the Napoleonic wars. Trade agreements never help anyone, on a case by case, business basis it can work. Like Sweden has wood, Britain needs wood and we give them sand from the Scottish seabed to build their buildings. But in terms of industry and sector wide trade agreements, they are terrible for Britain and always have been.

Well going back to napoleonic wars....that era was way different as trade was more mercantile (i.e not voluntary at all) w.r.t BEIC etc

It was based on extractive colonial processes and ideology....i.e huge one-way levers/gradients set forcefully.

Today though, one fundamentally has to know one's strengths to trade well (in the voluntary + open competitive system basis set after WW2)

A free trade agreement is just fancy word of negotiation (on these strengths) given the extreme autarkic approach is a proven failure (otherwise why would the logic extend internally, why not just have autarkic sub-units at extreme resolution within the country too).

Its not like tarrifs and such are lowered to zero across the board (that is a common market, one step above a customs union which UK extracted itself from w.r.t EU somewhat in brexit).

i.e FTAs are case by case in the end (what do you want to parley on vs what you dont want to w.r.t analysis of your economic an societal forces). They operate for a length of time and you see the results and renegotiate later from the impact (this is how its supposed to work)....since you can only make a projection right now rather than know the final result.

Don't let the name fool you as you can study the details of any Free Trade Agreement.

Free trade is just catch all phrase....a nebulous referenced objective picked by the globalist narrative to sound good.

Rather (in reality) they are set at how the political/technocratic class of either side perceive their relative strengths in the economic sphere and want to gain/develop an advantage mutually based on it (compared to what they may have with the larger world norm/settting etc).....in case by case way.

i.e what are the best supply and demand pressures that can be addressed mutually relative to others.

It is thus why I say its important that leadership + negotiating + decision making class know these well (what is case by case appropriate versus what is not).
 

Nilgiri

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This is historically not correct and I think you know this. The UK voluntarily made this decision to value high finance over industrial production. You took the steps that ruined your industrial base without anybody pushing you to go down this terrible path. FTAs aren't the problem here, in fact many more nations have benefited from free trade than vice versa.

Your arguments are weak.

His contention (I would imagine) is that the move to finance+services was done (by the leadership class) without proper guided reference+input+impact analysis from the British people I would imagine.

It is very much in the end how people perceive leadership class w.r.t the larger population. They are not a monolith....but how much so?
 

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This is historically not correct and I think you know this. The UK voluntarily made this decision to value high finance over industrial production. You took the steps that ruined your industrial base without anybody pushing you to go down this terrible path. FTAs aren't the problem here, in fact many more nations have benefited from free trade than vice versa.

Your arguments are weak.
Yeah that's fair enough. Britain should have totally left the Empire and joined the US like Japan and Germany have done past WW2. It was a mistake to continue trying to maintain the Empire, while being under full American domination. That in turn meant we had to have fully protectionist policies post WW2 both internally and externally, then destroyed our innovation and by the 80's all the nationalized industries were decades behind Japan and Germany, then Thatcher came in an sold all our industry off to American multi-nationals, so we became a feeder nation for the EU to rebuild our manufacturing.

So yeah totally agree with what you said, it was our own fault and we did it to ourselves. However the way we get out of it is by smashing the EU apart, breaking out of the American Empire and overthrowing the people currently ruling England. Free trade worked for Britain when we controlled the worlds Oceans and had a massive trading Empire. It no longer works for us because we don't have a navy and can't control a trading block. The EU was a problem for Britain because it totally redirected trade to the South East of England and the financial centers around Edinburgh and London, meaning the north of Britain and the mid-lands became increasingly poor. In the Empire days every part of Britain has its own trade route apart from South Ireland which has grown richer from EU membership. In 1900 Britain had an economy of 161 million pounds or 20 trillion in today's money. Now Britain has an economy of just 2.5 trillion. So in 100 years Britain has lost 90% of its economy, with a population over 25 million higher. This is just what happens when great Empires fall, all the wealth leaves and it is picked off by the new Empires in the EU and USA. Same thing happened to Russia after the fall of the USSR.
 

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Out of curiosity, if you looked at a world map and put economic numbers on it, which countries/colonies gave best "return on interest" to UK ?

Also when you're looking at UK current economy do you include Ireland and Scotland in the equation ?
 

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Out of curiosity, if you looked at a world map and put economic numbers on it, which countries/colonies gave best "return on interest" to UK ?

Also when you're looking at UK current economy do you include Ireland and Scotland in the equation ?
In terms of the size of the economic relationship the UK main trade is with USA/Ireland/Norway/Germany/France.

And UK should include Scotland and Northern Ireland, as they are part of the UK.

In terms of the UK economy we need to become more reliant on yourself, our capability to maintain our own trade without support from foreign nations or from political institutions like the EU and USA. I would support massive trade agreements with Norway/Iceland, Russia and Turkey, as well as India. Never with the US.
 

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Well going back to napoleonic wars....that era was way different as trade was more mercantile (i.e not voluntary at all) w.r.t BEIC etc

It was based on extractive colonial processes and ideology....i.e huge one-way levers/gradients set forcefully.

Today though, one fundamentally has to know one's strengths to trade well (in the voluntary + open competitive system basis set after WW2)

A free trade agreement is just fancy word of negotiation (on these strengths) given the extreme autarkic approach is a proven failure (otherwise why would the logic extend internally, why not just have autarkic sub-units at extreme resolution within the country too).

Its not like tarrifs and such are lowered to zero across the board (that is a common market, one step above a customs union which UK extracted itself from w.r.t EU somewhat in brexit).

i.e FTAs are case by case in the end (what do you want to parley on vs what you dont want to w.r.t analysis of your economic an societal forces). They operate for a length of time and you see the results and renegotiate later from the impact (this is how its supposed to work)....since you can only make a projection right now rather than know the final result.

Don't let the name fool you as you can study the details of any Free Trade Agreement.

Free trade is just catch all phrase....a nebulous referenced objective picked by the globalist narrative to sound good.

Rather (in reality) they are set at how the political/technocratic class of either side perceive their relative strengths in the economic sphere and want to gain/develop an advantage mutually based on it (compared to what they may have with the larger world norm/settting etc).....in case by case way.

i.e what are the best supply and demand pressures that can be addressed mutually relative to others.

It is thus why I say its important that leadership + negotiating + decision making class know these well (what is case by case appropriate versus what is not).
Yes on paper that's how FTA's are meant to work. However its really all about geo-political power. The stronger nations enforce the trade on the weaker nation. This is how trade as always worked and continues to work. The British ruling class dealt with the vote to leave the EU by panicking and trying to prevent it from happening and then to sign one sided agreements with Australia and the EU, to maintain their structure. They nearly did the same with the US under Trump, but that deal was basically the UK opening its entire economy up to NAFTA and that would be the British losing our entire economy to the US and Mexico. (in effect if they did that the English would have rebelled against American rule) In fact the EU was British sheltering from American domination over Britain, since leaving we are fully exposed to this.

And the British ruling class isn't training in independent geo-political conflict, as since NATO it has been totally involved in international agreements and based everything off this. So they are having to relearn it now. For example the British refuse to use the Loyalists threat of conflict in Ireland as a negotiation tool with the EU, the EU and Irish used the IRA all the time. In fact the EU openly calls Britain a colonial power in Ireland. Despite the fact Britain defends Ireland, Britain enables the Irish political structures/economy to function and there are massive cultural connections between Britain and Ireland, which no other nation in the world has. So its things like this the British aren't experiences and creative enough to try and then implement.

With the Australia free trade agreement which is terrible for Britain, it will flood our market with cheap and less good Australia food, mineral and energy resources, just to get access to a tiny Australia market and having also compete with the Chinese and Americans and Japanese, we don't stand a chance because of the distance. What the British could have done is forced Australia to sign the agreement and built into the agreement that Australia would buy at least 4 Astute class submarines from Britain and Britain would get preferential treatment within the Australian market.

With the EU withdrawal agreement the British have been totally rinsed, we lose access to the EU, yet they still had a % of our market and still we have to adhere to EU laws and the EU court. Like we lost fishing access to sell in the EU market, which is fine, but then the EU still gets to fish a % of our Fish. So our fishing fleet is damaged even more. Would a ruling class agree to such a things or would the criminal class which rulings Britain at the moment agree to it? My overall point here is the British ruling class is totally put in place by the Americans.
 

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LONDON (AP) — British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is trying to set aside his political troubles and focus on economic ties and the war in Ukraine during a long-delayed official trip to India.

Johnson landed in the western state of Gujarat on Thursday, kicking off a two-day visit that will see him meet Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi on Friday.

Johnson hopes to strike new economic deals between Britain and its huge former colony, and to coax India away from Russia in response to the invasion of Ukraine.

Modi has called the situation in Ukraine “very worrying” and has appealed to both sides for peace. But India has stood back from international efforts to criticize President Vladimir Putin, abstaining when the U.N. General Assembly voted this month to suspend Russia from the Human Rights Council.

Modi has so far responded coolly to pressure from President Joe Biden and others to curb imports of Russian oil and gas.

India receives little of its oil from Russia, but has ramped up its purchases and bought 3 million barrels of crude last month, just as other democracies tried to isolate Putin with economic sanctions. India is also a major customer for Russian weapons, and recently bought advanced Russian air defense systems.

Johnson’s spokesman, Max Blain, said Britain would “work with other countries to provide alternative options for defense procurement and energy for India to diversify its supply chains away from Russia.”

But he stressed that the U.K. wouldn’t “lecture other democratically elected governments on what course of action was best for them.”

Johnson’s office said the two countries will announce new deals on defense, green energy, jobs and science partnerships during the prime minister’s trip.

In Gujarat, Johnson plans to announce a series of commercial agreements, including more than 1 billion pounds ($1.3 billion) in investments and export deals in sectors like software engineering and health that are expected to create almost 11,000 jobs in the U.K., according to a press release from the British High Commission in New Delhi.

“As I arrive in India today, I see vast possibilities for what our two great nations can achieve together,” Johnson was quoted as saying in the release.

“Our powerhouse partnership is delivering jobs, growth and opportunities for our people, and it will only go from strength-to-strength in the coming years,” Johnson added.

Britain is seeking to tighten ties with Asian nations as part of an “Indo-Pacific tilt” to its foreign policy following its departure from the European Union in 2020. Johnson hopes to nudge forward negotiations on a post-Brexit trade deal between Britain and India, one of the world’s fastest-growing economies.

Talks started in January, but the prime minister’s spokesman played down chances of a quick deal, saying “we don’t want to sacrifice quality for speed.”

The trip may also provide the British prime minister with a brief respite from a scandal over lockdown-breaching government parties during the coronavirus pandemic.

Johnson was fined by police last week for attending his own surprise birthday party in 10 Downing St. in June 2020, when people in Britain were barred from meeting with friends and family outside the home. It is one of a dozen gatherings in government buildings being investigating by police for possible lockdown breaches in a scandal that has become known as “partygate.”

On Tuesday, Johnson offered lawmakers in Parliament what he said was a ”wholehearted” apology, but insisted he didn’t knowingly break rules and brushed off calls to resign.

The trip means Johnson will miss an opposition-triggered vote Thursday in the House of Commons on whether he should be investigated for allegedly misleading Parliament when he denied violating any pandemic restrictions.

His trip to India was scheduled and canceled twice previously due to developments in the pandemic.
 

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India, UK set to finalise defence tech exchange arrangement


India and the UK are in the process of finalising an arrangement for the joint production of advanced defence technology and systems, the British Parliament has been informed.

In response to a written question in the House of Commons, UK Minister for Defence Procurement Jeremy Quin confirmed that a Letter of Arrangement between the defence research agencies on both sides is in the process of being agreed.

Such an arrangement is intended to cover joint research and co-development programmes between the two countries, enhancing bilateral ties in the defence sector.

"The UK and India are due to finalise a Letter of Arrangement between the UK's Defence Science & Technology Laboratory and India's Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO)," said Quin, in a written parliamentary statement earlier this week.

"This will help to deliver advanced security capabilities through joint research, co-design, co-development and joint production of defence technology and systems," the minister said.

Quin, who was recently in India for these discussions, was responding to a question by Opposition Labour Party MP Kevan Jones on the steps planned by the UK's Ministry of Defence (MoD) to "support India's requirements for new technology".

It follows an increasing focus on India-UK ties in the defence sector in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, with the UK acknowledging the need to actively enhance strategic ties with India and the wider Indo-Pacific region.

"I think the issue for India is there is some level of dependence on Russia, both in terms of its defence relationships but also in terms of its economic relationships. And I think the way forward is for a closer economic and defence relationship with India," UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss had said in the weeks after the conflict.

The joint statement signed during British Prime Minister Boris Johnson's visit to India last month has a dedicated section on defence and security as a "key pillar" of the India-UK Comprehensive Strategic Partnership.

An "open general export license" to facilitate technology engagement with India and an "open opportunity" for India to participate in the UK's aviation and naval shipbuilding programmes are among the highlights.

"They [Prime Ministers Modi and Johnson] welcomed the finalisation of the Letter of Arrangement between the UK's Defence Science & Technology Laboratory and India's Defence Research & Development Organisation to help deliver advanced security capabilities through joint-research, co-design, co-development and joint production of defence technology and systems - particularly in key and emerging military technologies," the joint statement reads.

"The leaders noted the importance of robust defence industrial collaboration for manufacturing of defence equipment, systems, spare parts, components, aggregates and other related products and key capabilities, under the Make-in-India programme through co-development, indigenisation, transfer of technology and setting up of joint ventures for meeting the needs of the Armed Forces of India and other countries," it adds.

The defence cooperation focus on strategic collaboration in areas such as modern fighter aircraft and jet engine advanced core technology is part of what has been described as "highest level access" to technology to the Indian industry.
 

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Muslim pupils are telling their Hindu classmates to change their religion to avoid bullying and make their lives easier, a think tank has found.

The study by the Henry Jackson Society found that Hindu pupils are being “held responsible” for the actions of India and facing xenophobic slurs from white pupils.

It comes after disorder broke out in Leicester between the Hindu and Muslim communities, which the report warned the same tensions are fuelling discrimination in schools.

Half of Hindu parents said their children had suffered hatred in schools with incidents including a pupil having beef thrown at her by classmates, the report found.

Hinduism is the third most common religion in the UK, with around one million people identifying as Hindu.

Links to Leicester unrest​

The document, authored by Charlotte Littlewood, a research fellow and former Prevent counter-extremism co-ordinator, spoke to 988 Hindu parents and surveyed more than 1,000 schools around the country.

Police in Leicester made 55 arrests last September after weeks of disorder which included vandalism of property, assaults, stabbings and attacks on places of worship. The think tank previously found that the tensions were linked to conflict between young people from Muslim and Hindu communities and false narratives claiming there was Hindu extremism in Leicester.


The report found that Hindus faced discrimination from pupils from varying backgrounds but there were clear similarities between incidents in the classroom and the disorder in the Midlands.

“Some of the discrimination exhibited in the classroom showed similarities to the manifestations of hate witnessed during the unrest in Leicester between Hindus and Muslims,” it noted.

“There were numerous instances of derogatory references made towards Hindus, such as mocking their vegetarianism and belittling their deities, which were also made by Islamist extremists rallying against the Hindu community in Leicester.”

The reports said Hindu pupils were being “held responsible for politics and social issues in India reminiscent of the treatment of Jews with regard to Israel and of Muslims in the post-9/11 climate”.

'We will eat you up'​

It found that Muslim pupils called for Hindus to convert or face “threats of hell for disbelievers” using terms such as “kaffir”.

In one example a child “was harassed and told that if they convert to Islam, their life will become so much easier” and in another told: “You aren’t going to survive very long... If you want to go to paradise, you’ll have to come to Islam... Hindus are the herbivores at the bottom of the food chain, we will eat you up.”

Another parent said children were told to watch videos of an Islamic preacher and to “convert because Hinduism makes no sense”.

Researchers also found evidence of xenophobia including from Christian pupils, with one child told: “Jesus will send your Gods to hell.”

'Religious education fostering discrimination'​

The report found that religious education was “fostering discrimination” against Hindus with inappropriate references to the Indian caste system and misconceptions over the worship of deities which students felt made “a mockery of them”.

While other religions were given days off for celebrations, Hindu pupils were often not given a holiday for Diwali.

The study noted that anti-Hindu hate was poorly reported, with only one per cent of schools recording incidents while only 15 per cent of parents surveyed believed schools adequately address anti-Hindu related incidents.

Ben Everitt MP, said the findings were “damning” and called for urgent improvements to religious education.

“The findings in this report are damning and shed light on the varying themes and forms which anti-Hindu discrimination materialises in the classroom,” he said.

He said that as well as discrimination taking the form of anti-Hindu slurs there was “a problematic approach to teaching Hinduism which may be feeding into prejudice, and whether incidents of bullying and discrimination are being adequately dealt with by each individual school”.

He added: “If we want to make real, sustained, long-term progress in reducing discrimination towards those of minority faiths in our schools, then we need to make sure that young people are receiving the best possible education about the many faiths which are woven into the fabric of our diverse United Kingdom.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/18/muslim-pupils-hindu-convert-islam-bullying/
 

Ryder

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Muslim vs Hindu rivalry

Most likely the students beefin between each other are Pakistani and Indian.
 

Mustafa27

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RE is a joke but to blame it on is another joke, people are gonna bully regardless. RE doesn't teach anything anyway people just play around in RE. Also, acting like its just one way is disingenuous. There is problems from both sides. I don't see situation from either side improving as you can see from both governments. RSS and both Pakistani government are radicalizing their people.

Also, I have had Seikh friends that took days off for Diwali but acting like they are both the same when they aren't is also disingenuous. Muslim Holidays such as Eid are typically just one day affair while typical Hindu festivals are usually multi-day holidays.

In the end, both sides are at fault and I don't see the situation in Leicester improving while both governments are pushing 100% propaganda.
 

Zapper

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Muslim pupils are telling their Hindu classmates to change their religion to avoid bullying and make their lives easier, a think tank has found.

The study by the Henry Jackson Society found that Hindu pupils are being “held responsible” for the actions of India and facing xenophobic slurs from white pupils.

It comes after disorder broke out in Leicester between the Hindu and Muslim communities, which the report warned the same tensions are fuelling discrimination in schools.

Half of Hindu parents said their children had suffered hatred in schools with incidents including a pupil having beef thrown at her by classmates, the report found.

Hinduism is the third most common religion in the UK, with around one million people identifying as Hindu.

Links to Leicester unrest​

The document, authored by Charlotte Littlewood, a research fellow and former Prevent counter-extremism co-ordinator, spoke to 988 Hindu parents and surveyed more than 1,000 schools around the country.

Police in Leicester made 55 arrests last September after weeks of disorder which included vandalism of property, assaults, stabbings and attacks on places of worship. The think tank previously found that the tensions were linked to conflict between young people from Muslim and Hindu communities and false narratives claiming there was Hindu extremism in Leicester.


The report found that Hindus faced discrimination from pupils from varying backgrounds but there were clear similarities between incidents in the classroom and the disorder in the Midlands.

“Some of the discrimination exhibited in the classroom showed similarities to the manifestations of hate witnessed during the unrest in Leicester between Hindus and Muslims,” it noted.

“There were numerous instances of derogatory references made towards Hindus, such as mocking their vegetarianism and belittling their deities, which were also made by Islamist extremists rallying against the Hindu community in Leicester.”

The reports said Hindu pupils were being “held responsible for politics and social issues in India reminiscent of the treatment of Jews with regard to Israel and of Muslims in the post-9/11 climate”.

'We will eat you up'​

It found that Muslim pupils called for Hindus to convert or face “threats of hell for disbelievers” using terms such as “kaffir”.

In one example a child “was harassed and told that if they convert to Islam, their life will become so much easier” and in another told: “You aren’t going to survive very long... If you want to go to paradise, you’ll have to come to Islam... Hindus are the herbivores at the bottom of the food chain, we will eat you up.”

Another parent said children were told to watch videos of an Islamic preacher and to “convert because Hinduism makes no sense”.

Researchers also found evidence of xenophobia including from Christian pupils, with one child told: “Jesus will send your Gods to hell.”

'Religious education fostering discrimination'​

The report found that religious education was “fostering discrimination” against Hindus with inappropriate references to the Indian caste system and misconceptions over the worship of deities which students felt made “a mockery of them”.

While other religions were given days off for celebrations, Hindu pupils were often not given a holiday for Diwali.

The study noted that anti-Hindu hate was poorly reported, with only one per cent of schools recording incidents while only 15 per cent of parents surveyed believed schools adequately address anti-Hindu related incidents.

Ben Everitt MP, said the findings were “damning” and called for urgent improvements to religious education.

“The findings in this report are damning and shed light on the varying themes and forms which anti-Hindu discrimination materialises in the classroom,” he said.

He said that as well as discrimination taking the form of anti-Hindu slurs there was “a problematic approach to teaching Hinduism which may be feeding into prejudice, and whether incidents of bullying and discrimination are being adequately dealt with by each individual school”.

He added: “If we want to make real, sustained, long-term progress in reducing discrimination towards those of minority faiths in our schools, then we need to make sure that young people are receiving the best possible education about the many faiths which are woven into the fabric of our diverse United Kingdom.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/18/muslim-pupils-hindu-convert-islam-bullying/
Why does this have to be merged? I think certain issues deserve a thread of their own

The reason quoted is "flamebait". Wondering how exactly is this flamebait when it's coming from a reputable source like Telegraph?

Or is it because majority of the members on this forum are muslim!!

@Nilgiri
 

Nilgiri

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Why does this have to be merged? I think certain issues deserve a thread of their own

The reason quoted is "flamebait". Wondering how exactly is this flamebait when it's coming from a reputable source like Telegraph?

Or is it because majority of the members on this forum are muslim!!

@Nilgiri

It is not my prerogative to show you what the deleted flamebait replies (that you now cant see) involved, warnings issued and what they would have led to if the thread just exists separately to gather views from shoutbox and the trolls that will then flamebait in it inevitably.

For that you will have to trust my judgement as a mod. Simple.

It is best to not start threads of this nature separately as far as possible just so they show up in shoutbox and then have to later have a mod cleanup as it cascades into nastiness.

Separate threads are for defence oriented topics as far as possible in this subforum in the interest of what has happened before between mod time presence.
 

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