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Jackdaws

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The Americans are handling it more delicately than the Canadians. Also, what’s Modi going to do? Threaten to stop issuing visas to Americans? 😂
 

KamBhakth

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The Canadians were idiots. The Americans have been professional. Also they have proof that they are now presenting to the world. They have left us with far less wriggle room. We will most probably have to throw a RAW agent under the bus and there may also have to be some concessions given via the backdoor .
 

Chipotle

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If the USA's allegations are true, it is very bad for India. It damages our reputation and crucial relations. Why does India need to target anti-nationals living abroad? It's not as if the Khalistan movement is very active in India.
 

Jackdaws

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If the USA's allegations are true, it is very bad for India. It damages our reputation and crucial relations. Why does India need to target anti-nationals living abroad? It's not as if the Khalistan movement is very active in India.
Biting off more than they can chew. The biggest problem is when you start believing in your own legend.
 
M

Maximilian Veers

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The Americans are handling it more delicately than the Canadians. Also, what’s Modi going to do? Threaten to stop issuing visas to Americans? 😂

So US hides a terrorist who has threatened to blow up an airplane and a cricket ground and you are more concerned about internal politics and Mudi ?

If the US needs India to counter China, every single US paper basically says they will be unable to counter the expansion of the PLAN, because US does not have the industrial capacity to both build ships and repair their own ships to match the expansion of the PLAN. The current repair agreement with L&T was supposed to free up their shipyards. Cancelling this alone will effect them quiet a bit.

India has more than enough wiggle room and influence to deal with the US. Besides, lot of the story sounds like a complete hogwash from the US side which Indians here for what ever reason are willing to swallow it. Did anyone here even read the indictment here ?

1701686062164.png


Read the part of the indictment, your telling me R&AW used assassins' who sent direct messages by phone ?? The messages were not even encrypted, it just says they they used and encrypted messaging application.

People should seriously stop mixing their politics with geopolitics. This entire episode is a response of the US, to India refusing to play ball with them in the Russia-Ukraine war.
 
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Jackdaws

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So US hides a terrorist who has threatened to blow up an airplane and a cricket ground and you are more concerned about internal politics and Mudi ?

If the US needs India to counter China, every single US paper basically says they will be unable to counter the expansion of the PLAN, because US does not have the industrial capacity to both build ships and repair their own ships to match the expansion of the PLAN. The current repair agreement with L&T was supposed to free up their shipyards. Cancelling this alone will effect them quiet a bit.

India has more than enough wiggle room and influence to deal with the US. Besides, lot of the story sounds like a complete hogwash from the US side which Indians here for what ever reason are willing to swallow it. Did anyone here even read the indictment here ?

View attachment 63548

Read the part of the indictment, your telling me R&AW used assassins' who sent direct messages by phone ?? The messages were not even encrypted, it just says they they used and encrypted messaging application.

People should seriously stop mixing their politics with geopolitics. This entire episode is a response of the US, to India refusing to play ball with them in the Russia-Ukraine war.
I am telling you it was a botched operation. This isn’t politics - it’s merely rooted in incompetence
 
M

Maximilian Veers

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I am telling you it was a botched operation. This isn’t politics - it’s merely rooted in incompetence

That is not how operations are conducted, the entire indictment sounds like a movie script. Mr. Gupta is a drug smuggler who was arrested in Czech Republic if I am correct. The dude will accept anything, if it means a lesser sentence. Other wise he will end up in the part of the prison were his backside gets expanded.
 

KamBhakth

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So US hides a terrorist who has threatened to blow up an airplane and a cricket ground and you are more concerned about internal politics and Mudi ?

If the US needs India to counter China, every single US paper basically says they will be unable to counter the expansion of the PLAN, because US does not have the industrial capacity to both build ships and repair their own ships to match the expansion of the PLAN. The current repair agreement with L&T was supposed to free up their shipyards. Cancelling this alone will effect them quiet a bit.

India has more than enough wiggle room and influence to deal with the US. Besides, lot of the story sounds like a complete hogwash from the US side which Indians here for what ever reason are willing to swallow it. Did anyone here even read the indictment here ?

View attachment 63548

Read the part of the indictment, your telling me R&AW used assassins' who sent direct messages by phone ?? The messages were not even encrypted, it just says they they used and encrypted messaging application.

People should seriously stop mixing their politics with geopolitics. This entire episode is a response of the US, to India refusing to play ball with them in the Russia-Ukraine war.

Where does it say that the messages were not encrypted and were sent by phone ?

Why would the US do this 'complete hogwash' ?

What have we done to get Pannun designated as a terrorist ?

Do not get carried away by the "US needs India to counter China" or the "US does not have industrial capacity".

Economically, China gets countered by building other productions centers. Not necessarily in India. There are other options like far east asia, east europe , mexico or south america.

Militarily China is far away from threatening the US. US ships can go close to the Pacific coast of China. China's ships can't even dream of doing that to the US.

US not having industrial capacity is a choice made by US. In case China builds a navy strong enough to threaten the coast of US mainland, you will see a US industrial base churning out ships.
 
M

Maximilian Veers

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Where does it say that the messages were not encrypted and were sent by phone ?

Why would the US do this 'complete hogwash' ?

What have we done to get Pannun designated as a terrorist ?

Do not get carried away by the "US needs India to counter China" or the "US does not have industrial capacity".

Economically, China gets countered by building other productions centers. Not necessarily in India. There are other options like far east asia, east europe , mexico or south america.

Militarily China is far away from threatening the US. US ships can go close to the Pacific coast of China. China's ships can't even dream of doing that to the US.

US not having industrial capacity is a choice made by US. In case China builds a navy strong enough to threaten the coast of US mainland, you will see a US industrial base churning out ships.

Nowhere in the indictment does it say the messages themselves were encrypted and had to be de-crypted. It only says the messages was sent though an encrypted messaging platform. Which can be Whatsapp, or any other similar application.

1701688443923.png



The indictment itself claims they spoke by Phone, video and text message directly about murder. Now its upto you to believe if R&AW agents are this stupid.

US needs India and its AUKUS and QUAD allies, it cannot contain China's naval expansion without it. Pentagon's papers for congress themselves claim they cannot match the Chinese Naval expansion. India's 175 ships plans by 2030, will give the USN a large breathing room when it comes to active deployment of ships and the Indian shipyards will be useful to maintain the currently deployed fleet. But, that is a separate discussion.

US needs India more than India needs US.
 
M

Maximilian Veers

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India and the US are mulling over plans to team up and deliver development projects in the strategically vital Pacific Islands.

1701695070475.png


India and the US are mulling over plans to team up and deliver development projects in the strategically vital Pacific Islands, according to persons aware of the matter.

This comes as the islands attract increased attention from China given their location along key maritime trade routes and suitability for military power projection. These 14 island-nations include the Marshall Islands, Fiji, Tonga, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu and Nauru. The Pacific Islands have typically been close to the US and Australia, but China has emerged a major player as a top lender, trading partner and an increasingly important military power in the region.

Experts suggest the islands could be key locations in case of a military confrontation in the Indo-Pacific. While India and the US collaborate on development projects across Africa and Southeast Asia, expanded cooperation in the Pacific reflects their increasing strategic value.

The two sides are promoting healthcare in Fiji by exploring collaborations in telemedicine and mental health care. Partnerships with other Pacific Island countries are now expected to expand, the persons cited above said.
 

Marlii

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If the USA's allegations are true, it is very bad for India. It damages our reputation and crucial relations. Why does India need to target anti-nationals living abroad? It's not as if the Khalistan movement is very active in India.
Pannu may look and act like a joker but he is really dangerous and deserves to get whacked. You cant just go and threaten to repeat an airindia bombing or threaten indian diplomats and go scot free unlike justinder's Canada.
 

Jackdaws

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That is not how operations are conducted, the entire indictment sounds like a movie script. Mr. Gupta is a drug smuggler who was arrested in Czech Republic if I am correct. The dude will accept anything, if it means a lesser sentence. Other wise he will end up in the part of the prison were his backside gets expanded.
They could have found any lackey within the US if they wanted to. Let’s see how it plays out. But the lack of outrage by the Indian Govt and the Godi media as opposed to the bombastic coverage with the Canadians is itself telling
 

Afif

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If the US needs India to counter China, every single US paper basically says they will be unable to counter the expansion of the PLAN, because US does not have the industrial capacity to both build ships and repair their own ships to match the expansion of the PLAN. The current repair agreement with L&T was supposed to free up their shipyards. Cancelling this alone will effect them quiet a bit.

India has more than enough wiggle room and influence to deal with the US.

I have some times to think about it. Specially after talks of G414 engine deal got real. What I realised is quite simple. USA and India are never gonna be treaty
allies like Japan or Australia to counter PRC. India is too big for that, it will always maintain its own strategic autonomy. Consequentially, If If India and PRC goes to war over border dispute or USA and PRC over Taiwan, we can almost be certain, neither USA nor India will go for a direct military intervention in each ohters help. In such cases, both India and USA will want PRC to bleed out in a war with the other party. Just like in How it is going in Ukraine. Of course, in such scenario, both USA and India will help each other a lot to undermine their common adversary, but indirectly.

IMO, Partnership with India has more economic relevance to USA than the military one. Because this is actually where USA at real disadvantage with China. If India can replace much of PRC's function as the next manufacturing hub, USA will be able to reduce its reliance on PRC.


And I read those papers, however I disagree with your conclusion about US industrial inability to match Chinese surface fleet build up. and even if it were the case, and without counting US qualitative edge, Surface fleet is the least relevant capability in order of priority.

1. US carriers and naval aviation. Where USA is still miles ahead of PRC.
2. Submarine fleet. Again USA is miles Ahead of PRC. PLAN only has 6 Type93 SSN. And they are not even as good as improved Los Angeles class. Let alone Virginia and Seawolf boats. And USN has 50 SSN in service.
3. Surface fleet, Where USN still has the qualitative edge and will continue to have it in the foreseeable future.
 
M

Maximilian Veers

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I have some times to think about it. Specially after talks of G414 engine deal got real. What I realised is quite simple. USA and India are never gonna be treaty
allies like Japan or Australia to counter PRC. India is too big for that, it will always maintain its own strategic autonomy. Consequentially, If If India and PRC goes to war over border dispute or USA and PRC over Taiwan, we can almost be certain, neither USA nor India will go for a direct military intervention in each ohters help. In such cases, both India and USA will want PRC to bleed out in a war with the other party. Just like in How it is going in Ukraine. Of course, in such scenario, both USA and India will help each other a lot to undermine their common adversary, but indirectly.

IMO, Partnership with India has more economic relevance to USA than the military one. Because this is actually where USA at real disadvantage with China. If India can replace much of PRC's function as the next manufacturing hub, USA will be able to reduce its reliance on PRC.


And I read those papers, however I disagree with your conclusion about US industrial inability to match Chinese surface fleet build up. and even if it were the case, and without counting US qualitative edge, Surface fleet is the least relevant capability in order of priority.

1. US carriers and naval aviation. Where USA is still miles ahead of PRC.
2. Submarine fleet. Again USA is miles Ahead of PRC. PLAN only has 6 Type93 SSN. And they are not even as good as improved Los Angeles class. Let alone Virginia and Seawolf boats. And USN has 50 SSN in service.
3. Surface fleet, Where USN still has the qualitative edge and will continue to have it in the foreseeable future.

I largely agree with your view, India and US will most likely never be treaty allies. However, If US believes India can counter the Chinese influence in the Indian Ocean, then they may not have to deploy too many ships in the Indian Ocean, freeing the ships to be deployed elsewhere. Any military conflict, US, India might provide Intel, supplies and possibly other assistance to each other. But nobody will be firing missiles for each other

As of the USN Industrial capacity, its the Pentagon papers themselves who claim it. Their claims are more based on the 2030-35 timeline when PLAN will have the active numbers/experience to counter the USN. USN is also having problems manning their Navy and their shipyards. Which is why there is such heavy focus on unmanned naval vassals by the US. Basically, the ability to deploy, refuel and maintain ships from possibly anywhere for long periods of time, without the need to use your valuable shipyards and send the ship back to home base to give down time to your crew.
 

Chipotle

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Pannu may look and act like a joker but he is really dangerous and deserves to get whacked. You cant just go and threaten to repeat an airindia bombing or threaten indian diplomats and go scot free unlike justinder's Canada.
But the cons outweigh the pros. Our relations with the USA are very important. India needs to patiently wait and concentrate on economic development. We should not be distracted by a few individuals who cannot really cause any damage to India.
 

Jackdaws

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More than a manufacturing hub (which it can be), two other factors matter

1. Size of Indian market - as Indian economy grows, more and more Indians will consume American goods and services

2. Indian diaspora - it is doing well and placed in various industries there
 

Hari Sud

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Pannu Murder Plot and the U.S.

The grim reality of the Khalistani Pannu murder plot unfolds through the unsettling alliance of Pannu a hardened terrorist, in collusion with the US political system, actively endeavoring to undermine India. Conversely, a figure embroiled in the murkier realms of criminality, Nikhil Gupta a drug dealer, gun runner, and a sinister underworld operator, stands accused in the United States for involvement in the plot against Gurpatwant Singh Pannu.

Adding another layer to this complex narrative is the presence of a weaponized and overly zealous district attorney in New York, eagerly on the hunt for a high-profile case to propel into the spotlight and garner significant publicity.

What is the plot? It remains uncertain, yet it carries a discernible anti-India undertone. The United States, seemingly eager to find a pretext to admonish India for not aligning with them in the Ukraine war, expressed displeasure over India's persistent purchase of affordable Russian oil. These factors ostensibly fueled U.S. discontent and served as motivations to reprimand India. Consequently, in the quest to confront India, American authorities identified an underworld figure residing in the Czech Republic, entangled in conflicts with Indian security agencies, as a convenient scapegoat for a fabricated murder plot.

This strategy served dual purposes: firstly, exploiting the vulnerability of an underworld figure susceptible to coercion and manipulation under the threat of prosecution and extradition to the U.S. Secondly, establishing a connection between this individual and an Indian official to implicate and prosecute India.

Crucially, Pannu remains unharmed and alive. Therefore, the question arises: what is the essence of the case?

Upon scrutiny, it appears that the flawed 5 Eyes intelligence system misinterpreted intercepted conversations as indicative of a murder plot. While many rational Indians may harbor disdain for hardened terrorists like Pannu, the conversations overheard by the 5 Eyes intelligence seemingly reflected this sentiment. The U.S. Attorney General, however, interpreted these exchanges as evidence of a murder plot, leading to the appointment of an overly zealous Attorney in New York tasked with constructing an indictment against both the alleged criminal and India.

Meanwhile, in response to these developments, India has initiated a comprehensive domestic inquiry into the purported plot. The key focus is to ascertain whether any credible evidence emerges from the alleged conversations between the underworld figure and government officials in India. The concern is that, in the absence of such evidence, the case may be perceived as manufactured— a deliberate effort to tarnish India's reputation on the global stage.

Nijjar Murder plot in Canada has similar overtones.

The key conclusion from all this affair is that if you mess up affairs with India; you may never be able to recover them. Those days of 1971 are gone when Nixon/Kissinger sent a nuclear naval armada to Bay of Bengal to intimidate India. Think hard ……
 

Jackdaws

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Pannu Murder Plot and the U.S.

The grim reality of the Khalistani Pannu murder plot unfolds through the unsettling alliance of Pannu a hardened terrorist, in collusion with the US political system, actively endeavoring to undermine India. Conversely, a figure embroiled in the murkier realms of criminality, Nikhil Gupta a drug dealer, gun runner, and a sinister underworld operator, stands accused in the United States for involvement in the plot against Gurpatwant Singh Pannu.

Adding another layer to this complex narrative is the presence of a weaponized and overly zealous district attorney in New York, eagerly on the hunt for a high-profile case to propel into the spotlight and garner significant publicity.

What is the plot? It remains uncertain, yet it carries a discernible anti-India undertone. The United States, seemingly eager to find a pretext to admonish India for not aligning with them in the Ukraine war, expressed displeasure over India's persistent purchase of affordable Russian oil. These factors ostensibly fueled U.S. discontent and served as motivations to reprimand India. Consequently, in the quest to confront India, American authorities identified an underworld figure residing in the Czech Republic, entangled in conflicts with Indian security agencies, as a convenient scapegoat for a fabricated murder plot.

This strategy served dual purposes: firstly, exploiting the vulnerability of an underworld figure susceptible to coercion and manipulation under the threat of prosecution and extradition to the U.S. Secondly, establishing a connection between this individual and an Indian official to implicate and prosecute India.

Crucially, Pannu remains unharmed and alive. Therefore, the question arises: what is the essence of the case?

Upon scrutiny, it appears that the flawed 5 Eyes intelligence system misinterpreted intercepted conversations as indicative of a murder plot. While many rational Indians may harbor disdain for hardened terrorists like Pannu, the conversations overheard by the 5 Eyes intelligence seemingly reflected this sentiment. The U.S. Attorney General, however, interpreted these exchanges as evidence of a murder plot, leading to the appointment of an overly zealous Attorney in New York tasked with constructing an indictment against both the alleged criminal and India.

Meanwhile, in response to these developments, India has initiated a comprehensive domestic inquiry into the purported plot. The key focus is to ascertain whether any credible evidence emerges from the alleged conversations between the underworld figure and government officials in India. The concern is that, in the absence of such evidence, the case may be perceived as manufactured— a deliberate effort to tarnish India's reputation on the global stage.

Nijjar Murder plot in Canada has similar overtones.

The key conclusion from all this affair is that if you mess up affairs with India; you may never be able to recover them. Those days of 1971 are gone when Nixon/Kissinger sent a nuclear naval armada to Bay of Bengal to intimidate India. Think hard ……
India has walked a tightrope in the Ukraine war and is also doing the same in the Israel war - full marks to the Govt and diplomats for that
 

KamBhakth

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India and the US are mulling over plans to team up and deliver development projects in the strategically vital Pacific Islands.

View attachment 63570

India and the US are mulling over plans to team up and deliver development projects in the strategically vital Pacific Islands, according to persons aware of the matter.

This comes as the islands attract increased attention from China given their location along key maritime trade routes and suitability for military power projection. These 14 island-nations include the Marshall Islands, Fiji, Tonga, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu and Nauru. The Pacific Islands have typically been close to the US and Australia, but China has emerged a major player as a top lender, trading partner and an increasingly important military power in the region.

Experts suggest the islands could be key locations in case of a military confrontation in the Indo-Pacific. While India and the US collaborate on development projects across Africa and Southeast Asia, expanded cooperation in the Pacific reflects their increasing strategic value.

The two sides are promoting healthcare in Fiji by exploring collaborations in telemedicine and mental health care. Partnerships with other Pacific Island countries are now expected to expand, the persons cited above said.

If
"US needs India more than India needs US."

They are not going to
"This entire episode is a response of the US, to India refusing to play ball with them in the Russia-Ukraine war."

32 countries have abstained from voting in the UN. 6 have supported Russia. The sanctions have set a price limit on crude per barrel. India is abiding by that.

An indictment is not a hogwash. They are going to produce Gupta in court and he is going to confirm all that is in the report. We will find out then how idiotic RAW agents are.

There are multiple assassinations of anti India individuals going on in various parts of the world. This could only be possible from an Indian government agency.

You have admitted that Gupta is a drug dealer. The Gujarat police have checked and there is no file on him. The Americans are going to tell the Indian govertment exactly which police station has the file on him. They will get the information from Gupta. Then they are going to ask to interact with the DCP controlling that police station.

The Pacific islands may be one of the concessions we are having to make. Maybe not because of this case since the Fiji health cooperation predates this. Do we really want to be there. Those islands are almost halfway around the world and have nothing to do with our interests.
 

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