India Army Indian Army Small Arms Archive

kaykay

Active member
Messages
80
Reactions
139
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Deal is in its last leg but yet to be signed. Legal formalities are going on. Some say It will be signed within next few weeks.
 

Mis_TR_Like

Contributor
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
1,287
Reactions
25 4,890
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Northern Cyprus
Has India ever been interested in the AEK971 or the AN94.

Amazing weapons, honestly. Maybe not suitable as a main weapon for a whole army, but for special forces they are absolutely marvellous assault rifles.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,322
Reactions
5 17,822
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
Amazing weapons, honestly. Maybe not suitable as a main weapon for a whole army, but for special forces they are absolutely marvellous assault rifles.

I mean for special forces. Too expensive for a normal army.
 

crixus

Contributor
Messages
1,021
Reactions
1,160
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Webley & Scott, the iconic British gun manufacturing firm, to set up new unit in UP’s Hardoi
Webley & Scott (W&S), the iconic British firearms manufacturing company, will soon set up its gun production unit in Uttar Pradesh.
Webley & Scott, the iconic British gun manufacturing firm, to set up new unit in UP’s Hardoi

Share:
Written By:

Zee Media Bureau

Edited By:
267008-ritesh-new-pic-red-2.jpg

Ritesh K Srivastava
@ritesh_ks
Updated:
Sep 23, 2020, 16:11 PM IST

Highlights
  1. Webley & Scott (W&S), the iconic British firearms manufacturing company, will soon set up its gun production unit in Uttar Pradesh.
  2. According to reports, Webley & Scott’s new unit will be set up in the Hardoi district and it will become functional from November.
  3. This will also be the first foreign company to manufacture firearms in India.
  4. Webley & Scott had armed the Allied forces during the two World Wars and produced weapons for at least 15 countries.
LUCKNOW: Webley & Scott (W&S), the iconic British firearms manufacturing company, will soon set up its gun production unit in Uttar Pradesh.
According to reports, Webley & Scott’s new unit will be set up in the Hardoi district and it will become functional from November. This will also be the first foreign company to manufacture firearms in India.


Webley & Scott, which armed the Allied forces during the two World Wars and produced weapons for at least 15 countries, will now mark its presence in the Indian subcontinent with the new unit in Sandila (Hardoi), barely 30 km from Lucknow.
The handgun manufacturing giant has joined hands with Lucknow-based Sial Manufacturers Pvt Ltd for the project and will begin operations with the production of revolvers. The new unit will manufacture its .32 revolver in the first phase.


Live TV

Joginder Pal Singh Sial of Sial Manufacturers, the all-India distributor of W&S products, said, "The government`s support and the Centre`s ‘Make in India’ policy helped the project take final shape."
He further said, "The cost of the .32 revolver will be Rs 1.6 lakh. We will give stiff competition to the arms manufactured by ordnance factories. People will now get world-class weapons at their doorsteps."
According to the government spokesman, John Bright, the co-owner of Webley & Scott has said that they would later manufacture pistols, airguns, shotgun and ammunition as well.
"We decided to invest in India and in the state of Uttar Pradesh keeping in view the vast market potential. The idea to expand our business got shape after discussions with the Sial family in 2018. We entered a new joint venture for the manufacture of firearms and airguns in India for the Indian domestic market. We got the licence to manufacture firearms in India in 2019," said Bright in a statement.
He said the original design of the Mark IV .32 pistol of 1899 would be used to cater to the Indian market in the first phase.
 

Gautam

Committed member
Professional
Messages
159
Reactions
1 688
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India

Indian Army’s Russian Dragunov sniper rifle could soon get long-awaited upgrade

DSR is a gas-operated short-stroke piston rifle. Indian Army has been one of the largest users of DSR & its different versions have been supplied by its Russian manufacturer Kalashnikov.


By SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP
10 October, 2020 9:01 am IST
1602322571550.png

An upgraded Dragunov sniper rifle | Source: SSS Defence

New Delhi:
The long-awaited upgrade of the legendary Dragunov sniper rifle, commonly known in the armed forces as DSR, could soon be a reality as an Indian private company has come out with an indigenous solution that gives the weapon night-firing capability, besides other new features.

While the Russian manufacturer of the rifle, Kalashnikov, has also come up with an upgrade, the upgrade programme is mentioned in the negative import list put out by the defence ministry in August. The cut-off date mentioned in the negative import list is December 2020. Bangalore-based firm SSS Defence has come out with an upgrade, which also brings down the recoil, besides giving it a bipod.

While the Northern Command has come out with a Request for Proposal for the upgrade of 90 pieces of the nearly three-decade-old rifle, the Army is estimated to have anywhere between 6,000-7,000 pieces.

What are DSRs ?


Designed by a Soviet weapon designer, Yevgeny Dragunov, in the late 1950s, the DSR is a gas-operated short-stroke piston rifle. The weapon was put through exhaustive testing across environments before the former Soviet armed forces began inducting them. By the late 1970s, the weapon was used in combat in several countries across continents.

The Indian Army has been one of the largest users of the DSR and its different versions have been supplied by Kalashnikov. While Army officers still swear by the ability of the DSR that has an effective range of around 800 metres, they say that mission criteria and nature of operations has changed over time.

The weapons have largely not undergone any major modification except what is known as ‘Special Operations Modifications’.

The DSRs in service with the Indian Army, for the most part, don’t have the ability to operate with an inline clip on day-sight and night-sight together. “In fact, the DSR does not offer a system to mount night vision at all. Even the sniper scopes that can be used in conjunction are limited to a 4x magnification and modern day sniper scopes can’t be mounted at all,” a source said.

Also, the weapon can’t use stability-imparting accessories like a bipod, the source added. Older versions of DSRs, which populate the Indian Army’s arsenal, have wooden buttstocks and a recoil that affects accuracy and convenience of use.

Why is the Army looking at upgrading DSRs ?


According to sources, the barrel of a DSR can easily fire up to 7,000 rounds and most have not done more than 3,000 each.

“This means that the rifle still has a long life ahead. It may not be a sniper weapon in the present day, but it is still a decent squad ‘Designated Marksman Rifle’ or DMR. The Army will easily take a few years to acquire and induct a more lethal sniper weapon with effective ranges of 1.2 km and above,” a second source said.

“The modern day sniper variants that the Indian Army plans to procure and have procured in limited numbers are intended for long-range targeting. Taking them into combat at intermediate ranges of 500m to 800m with expensive ammunition and high-trained snipers is the equivalent of taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut,” the source added.

What does the upgrade of DSR mean ?


A DSR upgrade can help bridge the gap between the age-old precision weapon and demands of modern infantry warfare. According to SSS Defence, its upgrade significantly reduces recoil with a new tactical buttstock with a built-in monopod and adjustable cheek rest.


A full-length picatinny rail that allows for the clipping of a thermal weapon sight or image intensifier sight in front of a day scope is also the part of upgrade. The clip on configuration allows the operator to maintain the existing day scope. The upgrade will also come with an ergonomic pistol grip, attachment of accouterments like a laser range finder, besides a new muzzle brake for reduced recoil and flash.

 

Gautam

Committed member
Professional
Messages
159
Reactions
1 688
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
That is one fine looking firearm.

We've made some steps in small arms developments. We are still in early phases. But the developments so far has been encouraging. That company has big plans & quite a few guns developed/under-development besides the Dragunov/AK upgrades:

They have 2 bolt action snipers under-development. The 7.62X51 NATO/0.308 chambered "Viper" & the 0.338 Lapua Magnum chambered "Saber". Both the rifles share a chassis, the only difference being the calibre.

Here is the Viper being trailed by the NSG. The NSG are an elite counter-terror unit, they have played a critical role in the development of the rifle :
Screenshot (485).png

The pic is mislabeled a bit, that is a sound suppressor not a flash suppressor. Although technically a sound suppressor suppresses muzzle flash too. This rifle is considered their 1st gen rifle. With the trials from the NSG, a lot of inputs were taken from them. The sniper didn't have a monolithic top rail then, the NSG insisted that a sniper must have monolithic rails. So the 2nd gen rifle had them :
EYjX8e5WsAAae-T.jpg

Those two guys are the CEO & CTO of the company.

The 2nd gen rifle was also put into testing. Here is a small clip from trails in the NSG's training grounds:


I've never seen a double handed firing before. But the gun is very stable, almost no recoil movement. Anyway, taking inputs from the NSG we came to the 3rd gen of the rifles which was showcased in Feb this year at DefExpo 2020 :

7.62 Viper :
7.62X51VIPER.jpg


0.338 LM Saber :
338SABER.jpg

saber 4.jpg


Apparently both Army & Navy has expressed some interests in the rifles :
EYKhewrXkAEXuks.jpg


In the DefExpo they have also showcased the P-72 family of assault rifles :

Starting with the P-72 carbine for regular infantry :
EQALePGWkAAYeKe.jpg


DMR :
EQALePCWkAEH6A8.jpg


And the P-72 Rapid Engagement Combat Rifle(RECR) for special forces:
EZCrHqAWkAY5XNJ.jpg


All of them are based on the same chassis. The guns will be offered in 3 calibres(5.56, 7.62X39 Russian & in future 6.8). The 7.62 R variant was showcased. The gun obviously uses the AK as a starting point of design, which is no bad thing. If it gets the same love from the forces as the snipers it will grow too. This is the 1st generation of assault rifles. They have recently announced that they are working on a 0.338 belt fed machine gun for special forces.

Its not known if any of the services are testing the rifles currently. The army is busy with Dragunov & AK upgrade programs. I hope the NSG or the Navy helps them with the trials. The guns do look promising.

The Dragunov upgrade kit is clearly borrowed from the snipers they developed. They have tied up with the Brazilian ammo company CBC to make their own sniper grade & regular ammo. Sometime later they want to address the civilian firearms market. They have big plans, how much of that will work remains to be seen.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,322
Reactions
5 17,822
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
We've made some steps in small arms developments. We are still in early phases. But the developments so far has been encouraging. That company has big plans & quite a few guns developed/under-development besides the Dragunov/AK upgrades:

They have 2 bolt action snipers under-development. The 7.62X51 NATO/0.308 chambered "Viper" & the 0.338 Lapua Magnum chambered "Saber". Both the rifles share a chassis, the only difference being the calibre.

Here is the Viper being trailed by the NSG. The NSG are an elite counter-terror unit, they have played a critical role in the development of the rifle :
View attachment 3837
The pic is mislabeled a bit, that is a sound suppressor not a flash suppressor. Although technically a sound suppressor suppresses muzzle flash too. This rifle is considered their 1st gen rifle. With the trials from the NSG, a lot of inputs were taken from them. The sniper didn't have a monolithic top rail then, the NSG insisted that a sniper must have monolithic rails. So the 2nd gen rifle had them :
View attachment 3834
Those two guys are the CEO & CTO of the company.

The 2nd gen rifle was also put into testing. Here is a small clip from trails in the NSG's training grounds:


I've never seen a double handed firing before. But the gun is very stable, almost no recoil movement. Anyway, taking inputs from the NSG we came to the 3rd gen of the rifles which was showcased in Feb this year at DefExpo 2020 :

7.62 Viper :
View attachment 3828

0.338 LM Saber :
View attachment 3827
View attachment 3833

Apparently both Army & Navy has expressed some interests in the rifles :
View attachment 3835

In the DefExpo they have also showcased the P-72 family of assault rifles :

Starting with the P-72 carbine for regular infantry :
View attachment 3829

DMR :
View attachment 3830

And the P-72 Rapid Engagement Combat Rifle(RECR) for special forces:
View attachment 3836

All of them are based on the same chassis. The guns will be offered in 3 calibres(5.56, 7.62X39 Russian & in future 6.8). The 7.62 R variant was showcased. The gun obviously uses the AK as a starting point of design, which is no bad thing. If it gets the same love from the forces as the snipers it will grow too. This is the 1st generation of assault rifles. They have recently announced that they are working on a 0.338 belt fed machine gun for special forces.

Its not known if any of the services are testing the rifles currently. The army is busy with Dragunov & AK upgrade programs. I hope the NSG or the Navy helps them with the trials. The guns do look promising.

The Dragunov upgrade kit is clearly borrowed from the snipers they developed. They have tied up with the Brazilian ammo company CBC to make their own sniper grade & regular ammo. Sometime later they want to address the civilian firearms market. They have big plans, how much of that will work remains to be seen.

Hopefully this time it will be better so the insas rifle debacle can be left behind.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,322
Reactions
5 17,822
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
How come the Indian army insas rifle is 5.56 wouldnt it be better if India has battle rifles rather than assault rifles??

Pakistan and China border you are at long distance ranges where you require 7.62 nato.

Oh wait it seems they are adopting it with the SIG 716I.
 

Gautam

Committed member
Professional
Messages
159
Reactions
1 688
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
How come the Indian army insas rifle is 5.56 wouldnt it be better if India has battle rifles rather than assault rifles??

Pakistan and China border you are at long distance ranges where you require 7.62 nato.

Oh wait it seems they are adopting it with the SIG 716I.
That's right. The Sigs have started making it to the frontlines :
1602427793212.png

PicsArt_10-11-04.59.43.jpg


The gun is likely going to have a BEL or EO Tech red dot sight that we already use :
main-qimg-7ad5c186cc90e68af62a739d7f545343.jpg


I would personally like to see the ADTL scope on the Sigs. That would really help us exploit the long range capability of the gun better :
D5fJMgVUUAADpit.jpg
 
Last edited:

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,322
Reactions
5 17,822
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey

DianaSanderson43lny

New member
Messages
1

Indian Army’s Russian Dragunov sniper rifle could soon get long-awaited upgrade

DSR is a gas-operated short-stroke piston rifle. Indian Army has been one of the largest users of DSR & its different versions have been supplied by its Russian manufacturer Kalashnikov.


By SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP
10 October, 2020 9:01 am IST
View attachment 3825
An upgraded Dragunov sniper rifle | Source: SSS Defence

New Delhi:
The long-awaited upgrade of the legendary Dragunov sniper rifle, commonly known in the armed forces as DSR, could soon be a reality as an Indian private company has come out with an indigenous solution that gives the weapon night-firing capability, besides other new features.

While the Russian manufacturer of the rifle, Kalashnikov, has also come up with an upgrade, the upgrade programme is mentioned in the negative import list put out by the defence ministry in August. The cut-off date mentioned in the negative import list is December 2020. Bangalore-based firm SSS Defence has come out with an upgrade, which also brings down the recoil, besides giving it a bipod.

While the Northern Command has come out with a Request for Proposal for the upgrade of 90 pieces of the nearly three-decade-old rifle, the Army is estimated to have anywhere between 6,000-7,000 pieces.

What are DSRs ?


Designed by a Soviet weapon designer, Yevgeny Dragunov, in the late 1950s, the DSR is a gas-operated short-stroke piston rifle. The weapon was put through exhaustive testing across environments before the former Soviet armed forces began inducting them. By the late 1970s, the weapon was used in combat in several countries across continents.

The Indian Army has been one of the largest users of the DSR and its different versions have been supplied by Kalashnikov. While Army officers still swear by the ability of the DSR that has an effective range of around 800 metres, they say that mission criteria and nature of operations has changed over time.

The weapons have largely not undergone any major modification except what is known as ‘Special Operations Modifications’.

The DSRs in service with the Indian Army, for the most part, don’t have the ability to operate with an inline clip on day-sight and night-sight together. “In fact, the DSR does not offer a system to mount night vision at all. Even the sniper scopes that can be used in conjunction are limited to a 4x magnification and modern day sniper scopes can’t be mounted at all,” a source said.

Also, the weapon can’t use stability-imparting accessories like a bipod, the source added. Older versions of DSRs, which populate the Indian Army’s arsenal, have wooden buttstocks and a recoil that affects accuracy and convenience of use.

Why is the Army looking at upgrading DSRs ?


According to sources, the barrel of a DSR can easily fire up to 7,000 rounds and most have not done more than 3,000 each.

“This means that the rifle still has a long life ahead. It may not be a sniper weapon in the present day, but it is still a decent squad ‘Designated Marksman Rifle’ or DMR. The Army will easily take a few years to acquire and induct a more lethal sniper weapon with effective ranges of 1.2 km and above,” a second source said.

“The modern day sniper variants that the Indian Army plans to procure and have procured in limited numbers are intended for long-range targeting. Taking them into combat at intermediate ranges of 500m to 800m with expensive ammunition and high-trained snipers is the equivalent of taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut,” the source added.

What does the upgrade of DSR mean ?


A DSR upgrade can help bridge the gap between the age-old precision weapon and demands of modern infantry warfare. According to SSS Defence, its upgrade significantly reduces recoil with a new tactical buttstock with a built-in monopod and adjustable cheek rest.


A full-length picatinny rail that allows for the clipping of a thermal weapon sight or image intensifier sight in front of a day scope is also the part of upgrade. The clip on configuration allows the operator to maintain the existing day scope. The upgrade will also come with an ergonomic pistol grip, attachment of accouterments like a laser range finder, besides a new muzzle brake for reduced recoil and flash.

My dad was using kinda one like this, but I Think that was automatic sniper. The scope tho.. how good is it..
But still they were breaking kinda alot, and he was really getting mad even in front of me. I really got shocked seeing him so mad and decided to buy him a good night vision hunting scope of model ATN X-Sight LTV 5-15x (click here to go on that site where I got it) and he is using it untill now and is very happy. It actually didn't cost that much, yet it matters so much to him. Anyway, I guess this one is better than any nightforces he was using before (or rigani's)
 
Last edited:

Gautam

Committed member
Professional
Messages
159
Reactions
1 688
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
My dad was using kinda one like this, but I Think that was automatic sniper.
Automatic as in full auto ? That's sounds like fun, not sure how accurate that would be though.

This is the early version of the Dragunov upgrade. Forgot I had this pic.
EEirhb-U8AAA-G2.jpg

I like this one more. It looks cleaner than the current version. The sight is probably an ELCAN Specter.

The scope tho.. how good is it..
They source their sniper scopes from the Schmidt & Bender or KHALES. Scopes are pretty good. I am more worried about the thermal sight. This is their first attempt at making one. We do have good thermal sight makers in India, Tonbo Imaging for example. The Army uses a lot of their thermals.

AK mounted thermals :
1602650036213.png

The AKs don't have a range that allows full exploitation of the potential thermal sights. In fact the rifle & the sights are so mismatched that the Army uses the sight for forward recon rather than shoot-to-kill missions. They can mount the gun, plug in a tablet & do recon while behind cover without having to poke their head out.
1602651025666.png

The SVD Dragunov, one the other hand, does have that range. So back up options for thermal sights are there, incase the new ones don't work right.

Army also uses small helmet mounted mono thermals/NVDs along with rifle mounted lasers :
1602650394507.png


Tonbo also make quad NVDs. They haven't been ordered yet, at least not publicly. I can't wait to see some photos of this in service :
1-39.jpg

2-40.jpg

IMG_9590.jpg

BNVD-P.jpg
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,269
Reactions
96 18,815
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Automatic as in full auto ? That's sounds like fun, not sure how accurate that would be though.

My mind went to VSS (Vintorez), it has full auto mode...coz its basically a DMR'ed AS VAL.
 

Gautam

Committed member
Professional
Messages
159
Reactions
1 688
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
My mind went to VSS (Vintorez), it has full auto mode...coz its basically a DMR'ed AS VAL.
Look at the difference in caliber. The Vitorez fires a 9X39 mm round & the Dragunov fires a 7.62X54 mm round. With a caliber that size you can probably keep the first 1 or 2 shots on target at full auto, the rest of the shots will be off. Especially at long ranges. Most DMR usage we see is between 300-700 m.

I am not sure how much utility this sort of a gun would have. Also the wear & tear on the barrel from full-auto bursts will degrade accuracy at long ranges very quickly. That's why many modern large cal. DMRs don't even have a full-auto option.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,269
Reactions
96 18,815
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Look at the difference in caliber. The Vitorez fires a 9X39 mm round & the Dragunov fires a 7.62X54 mm round. With a caliber that size you can probably keep the first 1 or 2 shots on target at full auto, the rest of the shots will be off. Especially at long ranges. Most DMR usage we see is between 300-700 m.

I am not sure how much utility this sort of a gun would have. Also the wear & tear on the barrel from full-auto bursts will degrade accuracy at long ranges very quickly. That's why many modern large cal. DMRs don't even have a full-auto option.

Given I have had extended debate with college roommate (who was 100 times bigger gun nut than I ever will be) about the intricacies of bolt action (Accuracy International being his gold standard of gold standards) being the best standard for any kind of precision system (and as to why semi-auto already compromises that in terms of sheer accuracy).....the full auto option on this (AS VAL) is something of a tactical flexible novelty overall....rather than something to be taken as an accuracy standard as a DMR much less sniper rifle.

For all intents and purposes, we also came to consensus that SVD was more a squad suppression role (at range) in its initial production run and deployment rather than even a DMR (a concept which has evolved more recently).....but the word "sniper rifle" (which we use far more selectively and only some semi-auto systems qualify) seems to be a general parlance.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom