India Navy Indian Conventional Submarine Programs (SSK)

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India is all set to launch the bidding process by next month for a Rs 55,000-crore mega project to build six conventional submarines for the Indian Navy to narrow the gap with China's growing naval prowess, government sources said on Sunday.

The submarines will be built in India under the much-talked-about strategic partnership model that allows domestic companies to join hands with leading foreign defence majors to produce high-end military platforms in the country and reduce import dependence.

The sources said the groundwork like specifications of the submarines and other critical requirements for issuance of the RFP (request for proposal) for the mega project, named as P-75 I, has been completed by separate teams of the defence ministry and the Indian Navy.
The RFP will be issued by October, they added.

The defence ministry has already shortlisted two Indian shipyards and five foreign defence majors for the project, being billed as one of biggest "Make in India" ventures.
The shortlisted Indian entities were L&T group and state-owned Mazagaon Docks Ltd (MDL) while the select foreign entities included ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Navantia (Spain) and Naval Group (France).

Initially, the defence ministry will issue RFPs to MDL and L&T and the two firms will have to submit their detailed bid after receiving the document. Subsequently, the L&T and MDL will have to select a foreign partner out of the five shortlisted entities, the sources said.

The Indian Navy plans to acquire 24 new submarines, including six nuclear attack submarines, to bolster its underwater fighting capability. It currently has 15 conventional submarines and two nuclear submarines.

The Navy has been focusing on significantly bolstering its overall capabilities in view of China's growing efforts to increase its military presence in the Indian Ocean Region.
The Indian Ocean, considered the backyard of the Indian Navy, is critical to the country's strategic interests.

According to global naval analysts, Chinese navy currently has over 50 submarines and about 350 ships. The total number of ships and submarines is projected to go past 500 in next 8-10 years.

The Indian Navy is also in the process of procuring 57 carrier-borne fighter jets, 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) and 123 multi-role helicopters under the strategic partnership model.

The policy envisages the establishment of long-term strategic partnerships with Indian defence majors through a transparent and competitive process wherein they would tie up with global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) to seek technology transfers.

Initially, the strategic partners will be selected in four segments - fighter aircraft, helicopters, submarines and armoured fighting vehicles/main battle tanks. It is expected to be expanded to other segments.

In the last few months, the government has unveiled a series of reform measures and initiatives to make India a hub of defence manufacturing.
On August 9, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh announced that India will stop the import of 101 weapons and military platforms like transport aircraft, light combat helicopters, conventional submarines, cruise missiles and sonar systems by 2024.

In May, the government announced increasing the FDI limit from 49 per cent to 74 per cent under the automatic route in the defence sector.
India is one the largest importers of arms globally. According to estimates, the Indian armed forces are projected to spend around $130 billion in capital procurement in the next five years.

The government now wants to reduce dependence on imported military platforms and has decided to support the domestic defence manufacturing.
The defence ministry has set a goal of a turnover of $25 billion (Rs 1.75 lakh crore) in defence manufacturing in the next five years that included an export target of $5 billion (Rs 35,000 crore) worth of military hardware.

 

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Disappointing DRDO AIP didn't make the grade for this project as originally intended, but at least they stopped that program early rather than linger it as usual to soak up and create paper volumes and noise.

The 6 scorpenes will also be retrofitted by the French AIP offered for it, during their first overhauls.

Edit: But I am also hearing in other circles DRDO AIP is a go. Confusing!

DCN/DCNS is now Naval group, I wonder if their chances is quite high @Vergennes

I would not like to see India go Australia way and blow a huge amount of money on baracuda (conventional version) though....paying price of SSN essentially for conventional.

Has DCNS got something up its sleeve to offer as more proper direct successor of scorpene?

If not, Germans and Koreans have the advantage for this project I feel ( I am going to go out on a limb and dismiss both Russian and Spanish tbh).

Though in this article, it seems the Russians and Koreans are no longer in contention? I agree with down select first one, but not the second imo.

Koreans would have been a good contender imo especially given they have improved upon the type 214 framework with their latest KS-III class with extra midsection capacity for VLS and even SLBM. An example of how ToT is ideally supposed to work...India could learn from that (given type 209 debacle w.r.t ToT), that's another all too common story though.

@ANMDT @Dante80
 

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OK I dug up to find out what I was confusing....the DRDO AIP will be the one retrofitting the scorpenes when they are overhauled supposedly. Don't know if any French cooperation/consultancy was involved in that etc.
 

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MDL-Launches-Fifth-Scorpene-class-Submarine-for-Indian-Navy-770x410.jpg


Indian shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) launched today "Vagir", the fifth Scorpene-class submarine for the Indian Navy.​

Xavier Vavasseur 12 Nov 2020

The launch event took place at the shipyard in Mumbai with VIPs attending via video conference because of the health crisis. Vagir is named after the Sand Fish, a deadly deep sea predator of the Indian Ocean.

“The state-of-art technology used in the submarine has ensured superior stealth features such as advanced acoustic absorption techniques, low radiated noise levels, and hydro- dynamically optimised shape and also the ability to attack the enemy using precision guided weapons. With the launching of Vagir, India further cements its position as a submarine building nation. This is in sync with the current impetus of the government towards Make in India and Atma Nirbhar Bharat.”

(More at link)
 

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Now that Scorpene deliveries are nearing completion, IN should decide on it's P75I project without any delay before all the trained manpower is lost and we end up training new personnel from scratch. Also, P75I should be split among two shipyards to quicken the deliveries while IN's Naval Design Bureau should work on the design of a conventional sub ensuring P75I subs are the last imports of our underwater fleet
 

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how many scorpene you guys ordered?
 

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6 ordered in total.

Naval group also competing in successor class (P-75I), that program is another 6 subs.
funny, in the past i quite apprehensive about this submarine because of Malaysian issue with this sub and often mocked them

And now, I heard some hearsay from the people in charge of negotiation and maybe it is not that good for myself (as one of rep of US defense company in Indonesia), French currently is leading the race to supply Submarine and Fighter to Indonesia. The Submarine in question is Scorpene class.
 

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funny, in the past i quite apprehensive about this submarine because of Malaysian issue with this sub and often mocked them

And now, I heard some hearsay from the people in charge of negotiation and maybe it is not that good for myself (as one of rep of US defense company in Indonesia), French currently is leading the race to supply Submarine and Fighter to Indonesia. The Submarine in question is Scorpene class.
Any particular reason why you were apprehensive of the Scorpene?

Solely in terms of technical capabilities...the Scorpene 2000 or any of it's competitors like Russia's Amur class, Navantia's S-80, German TKMS HWD class 214 and Daewoo's KSS-III are all fairly identical despite difference in size. It all comes down to the kind of sub-systems they're equipped with along with their armament which will add up to the costs. This is similar to Indian Rafales which are relatively advanced than their Egyptian and Qatari counterparts due to the sub-systems they're equipped with

France has been aggressively marketing their weapons platforms and lobbying with governments for the selection of their systems which is why we've seen countries going for Rafales and Scorpenes/Barracuda recently
 

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Any particular reason why you were apprehensive of the Scorpene?

Solely in terms of technical capabilities...the Scorpene 2000 or any of it's competitors like Russia's Amur class, Navantia's S-80, German TKMS HWD class 214 and Daewoo's KSS-III are all fairly identical despite difference in size. It all comes down to the kind of sub-systems they're equipped with along with their armament which will add up to the costs. This is similar to Indian Rafales which are relatively advanced than their Egyptian and Qatari counterparts due to the sub-systems they're equipped with

France has been aggressively marketing their weapons platforms and lobbying with governments for the selection of their systems which is why we've seen countries going for Rafales and Scorpenes/Barracuda recently

The one near us, Malaysia is the user of Scorpene and their is plague with teething problem for years before attained the initial operating capability. Meanwhile Indonesia and Malaysia is quite competitive at many issues
 

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Any particular reason why you were apprehensive of the Scorpene?

Solely in terms of technical capabilities...the Scorpene 2000 or any of it's competitors like Russia's Amur class, Navantia's S-80, German TKMS HWD class 214 and Daewoo's KSS-III are all fairly identical despite difference in size. It all comes down to the kind of sub-systems they're equipped with along with their armament which will add up to the costs. This is similar to Indian Rafales which are relatively advanced than their Egyptian and Qatari counterparts due to the sub-systems they're equipped with

France has been aggressively marketing their weapons platforms and lobbying with governments for the selection of their systems which is why we've seen countries going for Rafales and Scorpenes/Barracuda recently

Pretty sure only aussies are gonna go for barracuda, its just too overpriced for what it does (the conventional version) for just about anyone else (unless some middle eastern country wants to splurge).

If there is a version 2 of it where they ground up make it conventional (and thus cheaper) that would be effectively a scorpene successor...and would be quite a good candidate for IN to pick next. I'm pretty interested to see what the French offer there given germans have the best AIP.
 

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Pretty sure only aussies are gonna go for barracuda, its just too overpriced for what it does (the conventional version) for just about anyone else (unless some middle eastern country wants to splurge).

If there is a version 2 of it where they ground up make it conventional (and thus cheaper) that would be effectively a scorpene successor...and would be quite a good candidate for IN to pick next. I'm pretty interested to see what the French offer there given germans have the best AIP.
You're right, the Shortfin Barracuda falls short of an SSN, and we are getting SSNs anyway, so it is a bit of a downgrade compared to what an SSN can do at more or less the same cost

I think IN is looking for something between the Barracuda and Scorpene like the SMX 3.0, which seems to be a smaller cousin of the Shortfin

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...ip-tailored-to-the-needs-of-generation-z.html
 

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Pretty sure only aussies are gonna go for barracuda, its just too overpriced for what it does (the conventional version) for just about anyone else (unless some middle eastern country wants to splurge).

If there is a version 2 of it where they ground up make it conventional (and thus cheaper) that would be effectively a scorpene successor...and would be quite a good candidate for IN to pick next. I'm pretty interested to see what the French offer there given germans have the best AIP.

Brazil will get their very first Nuclear powered Submarine from France, i don't see why India can't get that
 

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The one near us, Malaysia is the user of Scorpene and their is plague with teething problem for years before attained the initial operating capability. Meanwhile Indonesia and Malaysia is quite competitive at many issues
So which torpedo armed Malaysian Scorpenes? We also had trouble selecting a torpedo since Black Shark torpedo from Italian WASS was initially selected but WASS being a subsidiary of Finmeccanica which has been blacklisted lead to the cancellation of that proposal. IN went on to look at German SeaHake and French F21 torpedos but is reconsidering since DRDO is pitching the submarine launched version of Varunastra Heavy Weight Torpedo. It's ship launched version is already on active service with IN's surface fleet

1606450720340.png
 

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Brazil will get their very first Nuclear powered Submarine from France, i don't see why India can't get that
Why would we want to get a French nuclear powered sub when we have the INS Chakra SSN (Akula Class) and 2x indigenously designed and built Arihant Class SSBNs with 2 more under construction. We also signed an agreement with Russia in 2019 to lease another Akula-class submarine, which is expected to join the Indian Navy by 2025

Also, GoI approved the construction of 6 SSNs and 3 SSBNs (nuclear powered) which will be designed by the Navy's in-house Directorate of Naval Design and built at local shipyards
 

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So which torpedo armed Malaysian Scorpenes? We also had trouble selecting a torpedo since Black Shark torpedo from Italian WASS was initially selected but WASS being a subsidiary of Finmeccanica which has been blacklisted lead to the cancellation of that proposal. IN went on to look at German SeaHake and French F21 torpedos but is reconsidering since DRDO is pitching the submarine launched version of Varunastra Heavy Weight Torpedo. It's ship launched version is already on active service with IN's surface fleet

View attachment 7376

The same with Indonesian Navy, Leonardo Blackshark
 

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Brazil will get their very first Nuclear powered Submarine from France, i don't see why India can't get that

We already spent too much leasing russian SSN twice...to develop the crew and operational capacity....in donkey before cart priority (fair enough decision I agree, but it was expensive, had huge issues and we cannot do all that again from effectively near scratch).

Hence our (first) SSN program is going to be based on what we learned and developed there from that...including the basic reactor design that at great RnD commitment (and Russian assistance) has been miniaturised for arihant, but now will form a working basis for SSN too.

6 (SSN version 1) of them is the goal right now.

Our budget is really limited compared to our ambition (and even needs given what PLAN is expanding at ease into now) and will remain so for this decade too.

Thus we have to get lot more efficient and organised with every dollar and rupee. Nothing can be splurged more than what is absolutely necessary (i.e technology on offer that will take too long for us to develop) like has been the operative norm before in many cases. This means a full focus on indigenous "rupee only" as far as possible especially for strategic platforms.

Brazil option to 1 SSN is very different in scope and heritage....their threat profile as well and fact they are NPT signatory etc. This make lot of cooperation with France (or any willing P5) quite viable for them...but its different for us.
 

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We already spent too much leasing russian SSN twice...to develop the crew and operational capacity....in donkey before cart priority (fair enough decision I agree, but it was expensive, had huge issues and we cannot do all that again from effectively near scratch).

Hence our (first) SSN program is going to be based on what we learned and developed there from that...including the basic reactor design that at great RnD commitment (and Russian assistance) has been miniaturised for arihant, but now will form a working basis for SSN too.

6 (SSN version 1) of them is the goal right now.

Our budget is really limited compared to our ambition (and even needs given what PLAN is expanding at ease into now) and will remain so for this decade too.

Thus we have to get lot more efficient and organised with every dollar and rupee. Nothing can be splurged more than what is absolutely necessary (i.e technology on offer that will take too long for us to develop) like has been the operative norm before in many cases. This means a full focus on indigenous "rupee only" as far as possible especially for strategic platforms.

Brazil option to 1 SSN is very different in scope and heritage....their threat profile as well and fact they are NPT signatory etc. This make lot of cooperation with France (or any willing P5) quite viable for them...but its different for us.

Actually deep down, i feel if Indonesia ever need nuclear powered Submarine, the most possible scenario is to sourced them from France with US consent to balance the power in the region against the Middle Kingdom threat. Indonesian Navy who had base and infrastructure development of Nuclear powered Submarine is by far Will means a lot even by US standard, as it means there is a near friendly country who can basing and sheltered and provide whatever their underwater Nuclear umbrella power to work at maximal level to deter the Middle Kingdom playing ground.
 

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Following in the footsteps of the Japanese and South Korean navies, the Indian Navy has issued a RFI seeking details of Li-ion batteries. These batteries will be fitted in all the future submarines in the Indian Navy which are being designed to use this technology.

Lithium-ion battery development is at an advanced stage with all leading global submarine manufacturers and one could guesstimate that by the end of this decade, all modern SSKs will be powered by Li-ion batteries.

“Indian submarines still do not have Air-independent Propulsion (AIP) even on the latest Kalvari class submarines. India’s DRDO is developing an indigenous fuel cell AIP system but fitment on a submarine is yet some distance away,” Indian Navy veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh tells Financial Express Online.

“Indian submarines still do not have Air-independent Propulsion (AIP) even on the latest Kalvari class submarines. India’s DRDO is developing an indigenous fuel cell AIP system but fitment on a submarine is yet some distance away,” Indian Navy veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh tells Financial Express Online.

Financial Express Online has been reporting on India’s exploratory visits to the `Lithium Triangle’ nations (Argentina, Bolivia & Chile) to meet its target of having Electric Vehicles by 2030. And it was for this reason in 2019, the government has formed `KABIL’ consortium which has three state-owned companies: National Aluminum Company (NALCO), Hindustan Copper (HCL) and Mineral Exploration Corp Ltd., (MECL).

It has been set up to help in the process of acquiring this most strategic mineral globally. This mineral is required not only for the EVs but is used in other sectors including space launchers, solar panels, mobile phones and laptops and hi-tech military platforms including submarines for the Indian Navy. KABIL will help in processing the mineral once acquired from any of the three countries in South America.

Last year, President Ram Nath Kovind had visited two out of the three ‘Lithium Triangle’ nations and the focus of talks was also on joint manufacturing and facilitating the process of acquiring the rare metal. And, the former President of Argentina Mauricio Marci, had also visited India.

Today, since there is a huge demand for the Li-on batteries and cells due to their high energy density, these are imported 100 per cent. With the ongoing standoff between India and China, the focus has now shifted on setting up R&D and Technology Development Facilities, as the government plans to manufacture the batteries and cells here locally.

While India and Bolivia are in talks about having a joint manufacturing base for the batteries, both Chile and Argentina are in talks about exploration and exports of Lithium.


(more at link)
 

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