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Knowledgeseeker

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I-Class is completed, all need to be done is launching the construction programme, all technical drawings, scantlings, technical packages, logistic documents are ready. It doesn't consume man-hours in terms of design studies.

Next goal is TF2000 and MILDEN that is going to be challenging.

Armerkom and DPO worked on TF2000 in a way that, a new lighter design can be derived easily similar to the Type 31.
Is the TF2000 completed, or are they still working on it regarding design, and other technical matters? If its not completed yet then a lighter version would not be ready for construction yet..
 

Anmdt

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Is the TF2000 completed, or are they still working on it regarding design, and other technical matters? If its not completed yet then a lighter version would not be ready for construction yet..

Conceptual design is completed and they have selected a company to continue contract-detail design stages as main contractor. I think they will start detailing within this year and complete by end of 2024.

Technically at this stage they can work on lighter version alternatively from another company who was rivaling the selected company. But is it financially possible? I don't know.

What are your thoughts about Dearsan's frigate?

It looks like just what we need. I guess they can build them rather quickly but they are not even mentioned.

Are there common secrets that Navy doesn't even consider Dearsan or is it just that Navy being conservetive and only work with their designs?
Navy likes to work on their own design when it comes to larger platforms. But who knows, if they change the mind they could work with Dearsan.
 

Knowledgeseeker

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Conceptual design is completed and they have selected a company to continue contract-detail design stages as main contractor. I think they will start detailing within this year and complete by end of 2024.

Technically at this stage they can work on lighter version alternatively from another company who was rivaling the selected company. But is it financially possible? I don't know.


Navy likes to work on their own design when it comes to larger platforms. But who knows, if they change the mind they could work with Dearsan.
That's almost 2 more years. Any other options? Making a larger ship based on the I-class? I was going to mention the Jinnah class but then I remembered that the design is based on the criteria of the Pakistani Navy. Weird that the Turkish navy is "Suddenly" in need of frigates..
 

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Although Type 23 class frigates are well-maintained and upgraded TN can't get them as is. Numerous changes have to be made. I don't think this deal is likely.

114mm main cannon should be replaced with a 76mm or 127mm main gun. (huge logistics headache)
The command and control system should be replaced by Advent. (if we want to fully integrate them into our network otherwise we can only use Link-16/22)
UAV/USV control stations should be added.
2x Phalanx CIWS should replace 2x30mm RCWS.
Countermeasure systems seem like they can use some upgrades.

Pros of the ship
Artisan 3D radar is at least equal to Smart-S Mk2 arguably better
Sonar 2087 is an excellent sonar.
32x CAMM/CAMM-ER (25/45km range 10km altitude)
Long range, long endurance.
We can use our existing Harpoon missiles to arm the ships.
If we also get AW159 Wildcat with the ships we can ease our naval helicopter problem.

We are building 2+8 Hisar class OPVs/corvettes. Rather than building all of those we can build 2+2, or 2+4 and use 4x original Milgems for this purpose. Get 4x Type 23 and upgrade them for something like 50-70 million$ apiece a sizeable life extension upgrade with a big national contribution.

TN Corvette fleet
4x Hisar Class
4x Ada Class
1x Burak Class (should be kept as a test ship)
Frigate Fleet
4x I class (will replace Yavuz Class)
4x upgraded Barbaros Class
4x upgraded Gabya class (lightly upgraded Gabyas should be retired and kept for spare parts)
4x upgraded Duke Class
 

TheInsider

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According to a navy source, currently, there is no final decision on the matter. A navy committee is inspecting Type 23 ships. The committee will present a report to the MoD. TN wants at least 3 Type 23s. Frigates will be extensively upgraded. The upgrades are expected to take 18 to 24 months. Each frigate is expected to cost 25-30 million $. Upgrade cost will depend on configuration.
 

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According to a navy source, currently, there is no final decision on the matter. A navy committee is inspecting Type 23 ships. The committee will present a report to the MoD. TN wants at least 3 Type 23s. Frigates will be extensively upgraded. The upgrades are expected to take 18 to 24 months. Each frigate is expected to cost 25-30 million $. Upgrade cost will depend on configuration.


No need to waste 2 years on that ship, just order more I class.
 

boredaf

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No need to waste 2 years on that ship, just order more I class.
While it would take time, it would still be faster than building 3 or more ships and much, much cheaper. Our navy is already fielding ships almost twice the age of these already, using them as interim while waiting for our own designs to get built is a logical move.
 

BalkanTurk90

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Turkiye navy seems want urgent frigates ,bigger than I class and that can cost less so The Type 23 seems good but more the ships itselfs will cost the upgrades with Turkish systems .
While we are building warships for ukraine pakistan qatar turkmenistan etc we lack warships outselfs 🤦‍♂️
Still better some old upgraded warships than nothing . We have all around opponents that eant to steal our Oil in Mavi Vatan .
So Turkiye want the hull of type 23 perhaps sonar and some radar that are good but the ship needs huge upgrade , aslo its SAMs seems short range only 10km altitude i hope Turkiye replace them with Siper 100km , 20km altitude .
 

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I feel like the tf2000 is taking too long and I hope the determination/will to realize it doesn’t waiver.
 

TheInsider

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No need to waste 2 years on that ship, just order more I class.
I agree. Even though Type 23s are good ships we should build more I class and subsidize our defense industry even though it will be more expensive in the short run. The type 23 deal is very unlikely.

I class has a better combat capability with Cenk-S AESA, Siper and 16x Atmaca but it has half the range and endurance of Type 23.
 

Heartbang

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According to my research, type 23 is a thoroughbred anti-sub warfare solution. And open sources indicate that we are, at the moment, lacking in that department. Could be a very useful stop-gap solution until our own platforms come online.

Comparing type23 to tf2000 seems like comparing melons to elephants.
 

Pilatino

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When we buy Type 23, Greeks will get Ticonderoga automatically IMHO so it's not a good deal for us. That will be a dream for the Greeks but turn to a nightmare soon enough as a note because of their level in terms of capabilities and money.
 

No Name

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When we buy Type 23, Greeks will get Ticonderoga automatically IMHO so it's not a good deal for us. That will be a dream for the Greeks but turn to a nightmare soon enough as a note because of their level in terms of capabilities and money.
i do not quite understand what you mean, please elaborate.
 

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HMS-Somerset-T23-Frigate.jpg

Royal Navy Type 23 frigate HMS Somerset following her massive overhaul known as LIFEX (life extension). UK MOD

Opinion: Should Turkiye Buy Type 23 Frigates?​

A local Turkish defense media outlet was the first to report the claims, stating that the Turkish Ministry of Defense (MoD) had reached an agreement with the UK to procure the aging Type 23 frigates. The new came as a surprise to many naval observers and commentators. Mainly because the Turkish shipbuilding industry is in its golden age and follows an indigenous trend.


According to Turkish MoD sources, they are just considering whether such a procurement would be beneficial or not, but there is no agreement between the two countries yet. If the Turkish government decides to buy Type 23 frigates as a short-term interim solution for the Turkish Navy’s frigate needs, sources say that four frigates could be purchased.


Middle East Eye (MEE) also claimed that a possible Type 23 deal would be part of a larger cooperation contract between Turkiye and the UK. “According to three separate sources familiar with the discussions, Turkiye has held talks with the United Kingdom about the possible sale of a large arms deal, including fighter jets, transport planes, engines, and frigates.” said the Turkiye Bureau Chief of the MEE. The MEE also underlined that its sources said that Turkey is in need of frigates that have air defense capabilities as it will soon retire its G-class (Perry) frigates that are over 40 years old.


According to the outlet, the two countries’ defense ministers met and discussed options for a large weapon procurement deal that would include Eurofighter jets, C-130J transport planes, Type 23 frigates, and engines for Turkey’s outdated M60 battle tanks. In this case, each Type 23 frigate would cost between 25 and 30 million pounds.

Author’s opinion​

Claims of the MEE​

To begin with, the claims of the Middle East Eye’s exclusive article in the matter would not be incorrect to say that the reasons given by the media outlet’s sources do not accurately reflect the situation, because the sources only considered the ships’ age, and Type 23 frigates are not a suitable replacement for Turkish G-class frigates.


Though G-class frigates are relatively older, they have been upgraded with the GENESIS combat management system, and their CICs (Combat Information Center) are quite modern when compared to other OHP frigates around the world. They also had some sensor and weapon modernizations, such as replacing the aging SPS-49 air radar with the Smart-S Mk2, adding Mk 41 VLS to some of them, and other sensor upgrades. As far as I know, the Turkish Navy has no plans to retire those ships because they have invested heavily in them and they are still operationally effective.


On the other hand, Type 23 frigates’ primary mission is ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare), while G-class is primarily considered as AAW (Anti Air Warfare) frigates. The range of Type 23s SAMs is shorter than OHPs’ SM-1, which can hit targets at 50 kilometers, and four of the Turkish OHPs are armed with ESSM missiles as well.


Pros and Cons of such a procurement

Though there is an interest from the Turkish side to purchase Type 23 frigates from the UK, many navy veterans and navy professionals in the country objects to buying such old ships. As mentioned above, the Turkish shipbuilding industry is its golden age, and capable to build warships with an indigenization rate of 80-85%.


Type 23 frigates have a proven track record, particularly in anti-submarine warfare. They took part in a variety of combat missions and operations, including the Gulf War. If they can be kept operationally ready, they will help the Turkish Navy, which urgently needs to expand its fleet. Because the Turkish Navy is an operational navy with multiple missions at the same time, a task group will be required to protect the future flagship, TCG Anadolu. This ambitious LHD project, which is expected to conduct overseas missions, will require combatants to protect it. This will increase the demand for frigates even more than before.


On the contrary, it is unclear whether Type 23 frigates are the best option for fleet expansion. There are no British-made ships in the Turkish Navy because its backbone is made up of US-made (OHP), German-made (MEKO), and indigenously made (MILGEM) ships. As a result, the logistic system is not familiar to the British systems. Although 25-30 million pounds is a low price for a frigate, the maintenance costs of these aging ships may rise unexpectedly. This will be a critical issue when the Type 23s have a defect in any system, and the duration of repair might be longer than expected. It will not be easy to maintain these ships operational-ready.


Turkiye, which previously experienced outsourcing issues as a result of the covered sanctions, may face some challenges in repairing potential defects on these ships on time. This was the primary motivation for the Turkish Defense Industry’s indigenous trend. Because in the past, the repair of ship malfunctions took a long time because spare parts were expected to arrive from abroad, causing the ships to remain inactive. However, the indigenous trend has solved this problem, and malfunctions are resolved quickly, ensuring that the ships are ready for operation.


Of course, it’s unknown how much money the Turkish MoD has set aside for such a possible purchase, but investing more in I-class frigates may be a better option for Turkiye. Because the future TCG Istanbul, the lead ship of the I-class frigate project, was launched last year, and the indigenous frigate is expected to enter service in 2023. Completing the prototype of a new type of ship is always a challenge for countries when building a new type of ship. TCG Istanbul is almost finished, and the most difficult part of the project is over.


The remaining three ships will be built by private shipyards through the STM-TAIS partnership, and allocating the budget of Type 23s to this project may speed up the process and allow these three frigates to be completed sooner than expected.
 

Anmdt

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Most does not speak about it, but i think Navy is more keen on getting Sea King than Type-23.

*Temporarily to create a fleet arm, train personnel of helicopters and LHD just as AH-1W
 

Saithan

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I’d be very sorry to see the purchase of naval vessels from abroaf. Just get some from Dearsan. Just as TN established A wing (armed forces) for Adalar denizi with non western vessels and units due to arms embargo after Cyprus. Navy can establish a temporary usage of Dearsan Frigates and second it to TCG when we ger our own I and F class sailing in the sea and not on drawing board.

TCG can then with the vessels in inventory get extended oprational duties.
 

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Instead of buying Type-23s Turkiye should fund more shipyards, pump more money to private builders and order more ships with common components. We all forget about original MILGEM project was also including 4 more frigates with air defence capability, instead of waiting TF-2000 more TF-100 frigates with different focus can be ordered. Unless the developments about MIDLAS or things like helicopter arrest systems delaying such mass production, it will be a big mistake to buy 30 year old ships. As far as I see, regarding foreign* purchases, both Navy and Airforce are generally logical and prioritize logistical compatibility. So no chance that Type-23 will be added to the fleet.
 

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