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Ryder

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Russian Migs, Greek F-16s, Iranian F-14s, Syrian Su-22s, Egyptian Rafales and a few more. If we are opting for an overseas force projection capability, an actual fixed wing jet aboard our amphibs is a necessity. How do you protect Anadolu in the Ionian Sea against Rafales with Exocets? If Turkey wasn't booted from JSF, we would get F-35Bs for Anadolu without a second consideration.

How many of those are really a threat?

Iranian F14's are getting cannibalised just to keep them flying. But their future Su35s will be a threat.

Russia has a strong airforce on paper but its losing a lot in Ukraine which is in the long term sapping its strength.

Iraq and Syria barely have a proper airforce.

Egypt's airforce is a mish mash of planes what a logistical nightmare. Even if its a threat they will spend more time trying keep them flying rather than facing threats.

Israel's air force is at the top so no questions there while Greece getting not just Rafales but also F35s in the future is a threat but its overrated there is no need to panic.

Which airforces are the biggest threat in Turkiye's region that is really debatable but there is no need to panic.
 

Sanchez

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Question is not if Turkey's neighbors have air forces that can threaten Turkey.

These are the countries that Anadolu may or may not operate near in the future. They can very well threaten Anadolu, and that is all that matters as losing that ship could mean losing 1500+ men on its full complement.

By that figure, we shouldn't need F-16s with AIM-120C7s complimented by AWACS cover flying overhead to down some barebones Syrian Su-22s, but we do. We have the capability and it is much safer that way. We can't just brush it up with, "eh, they're all sht anyway". It was a Falcon business jet with two Exocets that hit Stark. You don't need much.

Yes, In the future Naval Siper and CIWS will do most of the work. Best way to stop an attack however is to stop the attacker, not the missile. When the missile is en route, it's a game of chance.
 

AzeriTank

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Russian Migs, Greek F-16s, Iranian F-14s, Syrian Su-22s, Egyptian Rafales and a few more. If we are opting for an overseas force projection capability, an actual fixed wing jet aboard our amphibs is a necessity. How do you protect Anadolu in the Ionian Sea against Rafales with Exocets? If Turkey wasn't booted from JSF, we would get F-35Bs for Anadolu without a second consideration.
they want to put small air to air missile on tb3 that could use against those missiles, or Ulaq like ships with air defence missiles
 

Sanchez

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I think Zafer is trying to say the US wouldn't let you use the F35Bs against any of those nations so there really isn't much of a point in having them.
I grew up with people saying had the US pushed a single red button, all our F-16s would just shut down or even worse they would take off at the same time and target Anıtkabir in unison. Turns out, that was all just BS.

US doesn't need a "red button". We have immense trade ties with them and the EU. They can always cut the supply of spares and drown our air force. We are out of action completely 3 months after they stop supplying us with engine spare parts. Would take us years to rebuild the capability. They could embargo us, hike the dollar to an all time high in a day, as Trump did earlier. And unlike Russia, we don't have world's biggest natural gas and 3rd biggest oil reserves to make up for the deficit. How long our export based economy continues to live if we are embargoed by EU? 2 months, 3?

No red button to shut off F-35s exists. It doesn't work that way.
they want to put small air to air missile on tb3 that could use against those missiles, or Ulaq like ships with air defence missiles
Those would be lovely additions, but they don't beat a fast mover with AMRAAMs or Gökdoğans.

If Anadolu as a fixed wing drone carrier works, it will be a page turner, we all agree to that. But this wasn't the original intent. After DzKK opted for a LHD instead of an LPD as originally provisioned, using F-35Bs aboard Anadolu was always a talked about goal both by the force and the government. Making it a drone carrier came about after JSF was out of bounds, not before.
 
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what

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There is not a single piece of evidence supporting the idea that the Americans could remotely simply deactivate the F35. People base this on conspiracy theories and a single blog entry from someone in South Korea about how F35 change their passwords every day for security reasons. And that makes total sense.

It doesnt mean that the new passwords are generated in the US or somewhere in the cloud, that you cant access when internet is down or when LM bans your accounts.


Andadolu without the F35Bs or anything that can replace it adequately will be a sad LHD.
 

Anmdt

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I grew up with people saying had the US pushed a single red button, all our F-16s would just shut down or even worse they would take off at the same time and target Anıtkabir in unison. Turns out, that was all just BS.

US doesn't need a "red button". We have immense trade ties with them and the EU. They can always cut the supply of spares and drown our air force. We are out of action completely 3 months after they stop supplying us with engine spare parts. Would take us years to rebuild the capability. They could embargo us, hike the dollar to an all time high in a day, as Trump did earlier.

No red button to shut off F-35s exists. It doesn't work that way.

Those would be lovely additions, but they don't beat a fast mover with AMRAAMs or Gökdoğans.
Comparing F-16 where some versions run by analogue flight systems versus F-35 where the flight systems altogether with combat systems made for (and bound to) the network centric warfrare is not logical.

There is no red button but US has clearly admitted that processing power of F-35 can be limited remotely (or per customer) thus altering user experience, radar capabilities, ESM/ECM/EA capabilities. It doesn't necessarily mean they can disable the aircraft up in the air or remotely pilot it, but they can safely render the aircraft incapable or integrating munitions or firing them. You may succesfully install the missiles by mechanical ways, but the combat systems may not update or record it as ready to use.

Tesla may update range of the cars with a simple tweak. Why wouldn't it be possible with a fighter jet?

In the end it is very likely that US would limit use of F-35B if the conditions are met.

Stating this as a pro F-35 A/B person. We shall get those just to get accustomed with 5th gen culture, develop and exercise the doctrines, blend in - for compatibility - with NATO just in case some countries in the east may go rogue and also to gain naval aviation experience with STOVL until the local substitutes arrive. However, we shouldn't build out strategies on top of having F-35, to counter Greeks or other possible adversaries with on-par or up-par air force assets.
 

Sanchez

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Andadolu without the F35Bs or anything that can replace it adequately will be a sad LHD.
I'm not a hater, in the future, it can be a lovely platform. But she won't ever reach her absolute potential without STOVL fixed wing jets, that is a reality.
 

what

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I'm not a hater, in the future, it can be a lovely platform. But she won't ever reach her absolute potential without STOVL fixed wing jets, that is a reality.

I mean there will be something that will take off from it eventually, but Hürjet will be a downgrade (compared to the F35) and so will be an armada of TB3s. Dont know if our MMU / TF-X will be able to fly from it but thats years away from now. The opposition will try to get back into the F35 program, but that is also years and years away.

One way or the other there will be a gap where our mightiest ship will probably be underutilized until something adequate will fly on it imo.
 

Anmdt

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There is not a single piece of evidence supporting the idea that the Americans could remotely simply deactivate the F35. People base this on conspiracy theories and a single blog entry from someone in South Korea about how F35 change their passwords every day for security reasons. And that makes total sense.

It doesnt mean that the new passwords are generated in the US or somewhere in the cloud, that you cant access when internet is down or when LM bans your accounts.


Andadolu without the F35Bs or anything that can replace it adequately will be a sad LHD.
Also it is ironic to discuss F-35B on Anadolu while we are lacking;
Navalized attack chopper
Navalized heavy lift chopper
Navalized ASW - multi-purpose (AEW) chopper
Modern medium weight tank for amphibious forces
Amphibious or modern IFV
LCAC

What we have instead;
AH-1s from Land forces warehouse
Cougars from Land forces
Seahawks meant for ASW-ASuW
and ZAHA as the only completed item which is necessary for amphibious task force.
 

what

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Also it is ironic to discuss F-35B on Anadolu while we are lacking;
Navalized attack chopper
Navalized heavy lift chopper
Navalized ASW - multi-purpose (AEW) chopper
Modern medium weight tank for amphibious forces
Amphibious or modern IFV
LCAC

What we have instead;
AH-1s from Land forces warehouse
Cougars from Land forces
Seahawks meant for ASW-ASuW
and ZAHA as the only completed item which is necessary for amphibious task force.

Should have first focused on the ecosystem to support such a mighty ship, before building it.
 

Sanchez

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Comparing F-16 where some versions run by analogue flight systems versus F-35 where the flight systems altogether with combat systems made for (and bound to) the network centric warfrare is not logical.

There is no red button but US has clearly admitted that processing power of F-35 can be limited remotely (or per customer) thus altering user experience, radar capabilities, ESM/ECM/EA capabilities. It doesn't necessarily mean they can disable the aircraft up in the air or remotely pilot it, but they can safely render the aircraft incapable or integrating munitions or firing them. You may succesfully install the missiles by mechanical ways, but the combat systems may not update or record it as ready to use.

Tesla may update range of the cars with a simple tweak. Why wouldn't it be possible with a fighter jet?

In the end it is very likely that US would limit use of F-35B if the conditions are met.

Stating this as a pro F-35 A/B person. We shall get those just to get accustomed with 5th gen culture, develop and exercise the doctrines, blend in - for compatibility - with NATO just in case some countries in the east may go rogue and also to gain naval aviation experience with STOVL until the local substitutes arrive. However, we shouldn't build out strategies on top of having F-35, to counter Greeks or other possible adversaries with on-par or up-par air force assets.
I vividly remember one instance. Year was 2012 and first of our then state of the art PO4 birds were getting delivered. It was the same talk.

With a bird this relying on network centric concepts, possibility of a third party interfering with it will always be a reality. Yet, it's a deep strike fighter that enters adversary's airspace with zero EM noise. As we never became an owner of the platform, we will not be able to learn the ways to circumvent it, as we did with F-16's mission computer in the past. Systems are made to be broken. Can't break what you don't have.

I never wanted 100 F-35s. A sq worth for Anadolu and 2 squadrons for strike roles, say 50 total A/Bs would be more than necessary. Sad.
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As for Anadolu, maybe, shortening our dreams for it for the time being is way to go. 4-8 embedded Cougars, 2-4 Seahawks, 4-6 Whiskey Cobras and 6-8 TB3s would make a satisfactory multirole loadout. That leaves a lot out, yes, but as an LHD, it does the job. We need T925 and its naval variant ASAP.
 

Anmdt

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. 4-8 embedded Cougars, 2-4 Seahawks, 4-6 Whiskey Cobras and 6-8 TB3s would make a satisfactory multirole loadout.
No, that is not a satisfactory LHD loadout and nowhere close being adequate. A beginner level equipment and asset to experiment on naval aviation, conduct training, establish a school and practise on rotary wing of an LHD. Also for TB3, too early to talk certain on a platform that has not made debut yet and while there is the time necessary to integrate it on Anadolu and gain experience on operating it. Same applies for T-925 which is still yet to be launched. Even T-925 is not the solution, we need bigger one like CH-53 for proper heavy lift to sustain amphibious operations that TN pursues.

Systems are made to be broken. Can't break what you don't have.
The recent systems are harder to break than earlier ones, and US would employ a tight maintenance security, access to computer by only a cleared technician (similar to what they would do with RAM coating). Would also come with bunch of legistation and contract details.

Short of the story, we would never be able to use F-35 to max capacity when we need it most, against the on-par or up-par airforces in the region. Since these are hardcore US allies, that wouldn't be possible. The only case that we may effectively use is the case which Iran goes rogue with Chinese support. And for that reason and to get accostumed with the 5th gen i would prefer to get some A/Bs.
 

Manomed The Second

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1678843190104.png

Marines armed with MKEK MPT76 service rifles and MKEK JNG90 sniper rifle at the dock of Anadolu Class LHD L400 TCG Anadolu
@Anmdt When will zaha is going to be deployed inside of this beauty?
 
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Ryder

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Question is not if Turkey's neighbors have air forces that can threaten Turkey.

These are the countries that Anadolu may or may not operate near in the future. They can very well threaten Anadolu, and that is all that matters as losing that ship could mean losing 1500+ men on its full complement.

By that figure, we shouldn't need F-16s with AIM-120C7s complimented by AWACS cover flying overhead to down some barebones Syrian Su-22s, but we do. We have the capability and it is much safer that way. We can't just brush it up with, "eh, they're all sht anyway". It was a Falcon business jet with two Exocets that hit Stark. You don't need much.

Yes, In the future Naval Siper and CIWS will do most of the work. Best way to stop an attack however is to stop the attacker, not the missile. When the missile is en route, it's a game of chance.

Always be prepared I agree with that but we should not be in panic mode.

The threat is there but it is not all doom and gloom.

A lot of our neighbours are eating themselves.

Israel and Greece with their airforces will be the biggest threat of course.
 

Saithan

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My question is after TB 3 drones do TB 2 drones manufacturing line up closes from Bayraktar

don’t think that is going to be the case. Considering how effective and cheap it is. It’ll likely be just like AK47, produced forever. But with better precision 😄

But perhaps TB2-S might be the only one continued due to satellite comm.
 

boredaf

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MİLGEM TCG KINALIADA (F-514) Corvette is equipped with ATMACA Anti-Ship Missile. Thus, the national anti-ship missile ATMACA was officially put into use.
 

dBSPL

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My question is after TB 3 drones do TB 2 drones manufacturing line up closes from Bayraktar

In addition to dear Zafer's post about the current order book, it should be noted that TB-2 is a platform that is still contineu to developing. New updates are constantly being made in line with user requests and feedback from developments on the battlefield. From various payloads to enhancements that lead to structural changes in the aircraft and directly increase the combat radius of the aircraft. Most recently, a few weeks ago, a TB-2S was captured on camera in Libya, although it is unclear when it was taken. Although the TB-2S is not a ship-based system, it can be characterized as a crossbreed solution between the TB-2 and TB-3, with satellite communication systems and possibly an optional engine options.
 
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