One Missile Can Change Everything On Turkish Navy

[Brave Janissary]

Bro all of us woory about many things on our navy. Biggest 2 problem of our surface fleet is ;

1- Frigates old age's
2- Lack Of Air Defence Frigate.

1- Frigates old age :

G- class age is around 37-39, Yavuz class 31-33 years old. We need 12 brand new ship just in 10 year for retain our navy up to date and strong.

2- Lack Of Air Defence Frigate : Whe want have not any tf-2000 before than 2026-2028. But we need immidietly him just because east-med is warm and there is very big air launched anti-ship missile danger in here to our fleets.

But we cant build more ships like that. Due shipyard problems, workforce problems, economical problems. Etc.
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But we can organize our fleet very smartly. With help of just one type missile.

How ?

All of yours know that we have ships who carry vls but their numbers doesnt enough for to be air defence frigate. And also Thanks Allah our ships carry tactical lenght 6.8 mt quadpack capable vls tubes ;

So we need 6.8 metered but max 260mm diametered long range air defence missile. And we have not much time for new missile. So for this reason missile could be 2 staged boostered missile just because our aa or sam missile ranges lower than 100-120 km. Using for first core missile section there are two options ; one of them Gökdoğan bvr and G-40 sam.

G-40 still in development but Gökdoğan very close to finish his test. On the other hand G-40 would be heavier than gökdoğan. So we can use gökdoğan bvr.

Gökdoğan : 65 km range ( big probaply more), lenght 3-3.5, Weight 100-110 kg around (same range capable mica rf weight is 112 kg)

There are three option for booster section ;

Trg-230 rocket section : they carry 100 kg around (warhead + guidance and subsystems) to 35 km range and 20 km altitude and they freefall another 35 km to target. Total Missile Lenght : x Speed : Mach 4.2
Sage-230 rocket section : they carry 83 kg around (warhead + guidance and subsystems) to 50 km range and 25 km altitude and they freefall another 50 km to target. Total Missile Lenght : 4.1m Speed : Mach 4.2
Sage-260 rocket section : they carry 83 kg around (warhead + guidance and subsystems) to 80 km range and 40 km altitude and they freefall another 80 km to target. Total Missile Lenght : 4.8m Speed : Mach 4.2+

İn a bad condition we use him with trg-230 booster ; booster reach him 20 km alttitude and 35 km range with mach 4 speed class, after that he can deattach the booster and contiune the way with another min 65 km with his own engine in total 100 km range.

But

All of us know possible attackers rafale, f-16, mirages, ef, su-27's etc. doesnt reach more than 15 km alttitude when they are loaded with weapons etc. So if we organize hims flight profile to max 15 km alltitude big probaply missile will reach to 110-120 km range. 3.5 meter + 2.-2.5 meter booster total 5-6 meter lenght. We can hit from 120 km aircrafts who carrier of possible air launched exoceet, harpoon and kh-35 and kh-31 active radar seekered anti ship missiles.


Possible for of missile ;

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Just if we achieve this we can deploy 32x from this missile to our 4 genesis-smart-s and vls modded gabya's to hims 8x vls's. And him can carry 32x sm-1 for mid range engagements and also him have phalanx. His 250 km ranged smart-s mk2 radar enough for run that kind of missiles. Aster-30 loaded freem-aaw versions run aster-30 with a herakles radar who same capable radar with smart-s mk2 . But maybe we must be change fire control radar with aselsan akr-d for midcourse guide but that is a not important thing.

So we have 4 aaw frigate (32x siper blok1 and 32x sm-1 ) with this move. Without any modernization.

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Also we can complete to barbaros modernization program and gain 4 modern asuw frigate. I dont prefered Barbaros for aaw role just because stabilization problems of his vls's overload.

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On the other hand, still we need a asuw frigates for replacement. For this reason we need to convert our milgems. Jus because our milgems heaviear for corvette and his range and capablities enough for mediterranian frigate. He can be capable make a operation on aden strait. But he need a medium range air defence missile for againts penguin and sea skua launcher carrier helicopters and destroy anti ships from long distance.

There is a very good space for 16x quadpack launcher in the front of the milgem. Yeah maybe mk-41 vls doesnt fit here, half of him must burry into hull but we dont know what they are. But for cold launch launcher we can set his tube sizes freely and we dont need burry him to hull we can setup his to front freeley. 16x cold launcher for g-40 or hisar-0 rf+ can fit to front easily. Just think only square on the floor of one missile. 16x can fit.

Like britishs did in type-23's ;

And 16x sam could be enough for ships self defence with ram.

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And last one , we need 4x new 70-80 metered Anti-Submarine Corvette the behalf of milgems . Just because we changed his roles. Dearsan Turkmen class corvettes very good for this role. Their unit cost will be nothing more than 200m dollar total 800m dolar (not more than 1x tf-2000). Big advantage of him we can build 4x for him just with our small shipyard dearsan, rmk marine, and maybe yonca onuk.

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So build plan of main surface vessels until 2026-2028

İstanbul Shipyard : 1x Tf-2000, 4x Milgem sam modernization, 4x Barbaros Mlu Modernization.
3 Shipyard firms of Tais : serial production of 3x istanbul class.
Dearsan, Rmk Marine, Yonca Onuk : 4x Turkmen Class Anti submarine corvette.

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Fleet Sizes :

2021-2022
4x Main Modern Fleet :

4x Quadpack Siper Capable Gabya AAW
8x Meko ASW
4x Milgem Anti Submarine Warfare

Support Fleet :
4x Genesis gabya aaw/asuw
6x burak class asw

2025-2026:

Main Fleet :

4x İstanbul Class AAW ( with s band version of çafrad çfr - he can also carry 32x quadpack siper + 32x g-40 in his 16x vls)
4x Barbaros Mlu ASUW
4x Milgem Vls ASUW
4x Turkmen Class ASW

Support Fleet :
4x Gabya (Until they sink)
4x Meko (Until they sink)

2028+

7x TD-2000 AAW
10x İstanbul ASUW
4x Milgem Vls ASUW
7x Turkmen Class ASW
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2022-2023 Fleet will gives us a breathe and 2025-2026 can give us regional control.

 

[Anmdt]

There is a very good space for 16x quadpack launcher

Nope, there are alternative locations, not behind of the cannon

And last one , we need 4x new 70-80 metered Anti-Submarine Corvette the behalf of milgems

VLS on these corvettes are short-VLS of MICA-VL

So we need 6.8 metered but max 260mm diametered long range air defence missile. And we have not much time for new missile. So for this reason missile could be 2 staged boostered missile just because our aa or sam missile ranges lower than 100-120 km. Using for first core missile section there are two options ; one of them Gökdoğan bvr and G-40 sam.

A quad-packed missile should be designed from scratch, if it has worked that way Aster class would have been already quad packed.

So we need 6.8 metered but max 260mm diametered long range air defence missile

6.88 is not effective length, if it was, there wouldn't have been a strike length VLS. Canister clearance etc. ,the effective length is shorter.

4x Milgem sam modernization

Will not happen before Ada class's MLU which is about in midst of 2020-2030. Yes, they are already thinking about MLU of Ada class.

200m dollar total 800m dolar (not more than 1x tf-2000)

If it has worked that way, nobody would ever spend billions on AAW Destroyers. It is not the VLS number which matters, but the sensors and sensitivity of the radars. Strip the dedicated sensors and weapons, a bare naval platform costs about 10-40 million dollars,depending on the size.
Plus, construction and commissioning of these ships, plus development of AA missile which you have offered would surpass 2023, and lean into 2024-2025. In addition to loosing money, man-hours would have been spent on interim solution and lagging the actual line of development behind.

Solution is simpler than ever; Complete the first Istanbul Class while completing design of the TF-2000, meanwhile complete the RFP phase for 3 I-Class with ESSM and immediately after, start construction of the first TF-2000 in naval shipyard.
In parallel, complete MIDAS, and dedicated AA missiles to be used on TF-2000.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Nope, there are alternative locations, not behind of the cannon

Bro, I dont agree with you, but there are options, sides of helicopter hangars or behalf of ram etc. Cold launch launchers gives a this advantage.

VLS on these corvettes are short-VLS of MICA-VL

Dont problem, I dont wait from this corvettes essm kind air defence capability hisar-a+ enough for him.

A quad-packed missile should be designed from scratch, if it has worked that way Aster class would have been already quad packed.

That is not a rule. wings can be changed on the other hand we can use for first stage quadpacked g-40+.

6.88 is not effective length, if it was, there wouldn't have been a strike length VLS. Canister clearance etc. ,the effective length is shorter.

Usable space of tactic modules are 5.6 meters. Possible lenght of gökdoğan max 3.5 meter, booster max 2 meter. total : 5.5 meter. İt still can fit.

Will not happen before Ada class's MLU which is about in midst of 2020-2030. Yes, they are already thinking about MLU of Ada class.

That's can be change of due political status. İf required its can be done easily with speed. But first missile and cold launch must be finish.

If it has worked that way, nobody would ever spend billions on AAW Destroyers. It is not the VLS number which matters, but the sensors and sensitivity of the radars. Strip the dedicated sensors and weapons, a bare naval platform costs about 10-40 million dollars,depending on the size.
Plus, construction and commissioning of these ships, plus development of AA missile which you have offered would surpass 2023, and lean into 2024-2025. In addition to loosing money, man-hours would have been spent on interim solution and lagging the actual line of development behind.

Bro unit cost of milgem is 250m euro and its decreased on the last ships. Today we are producing hims subsystem more cheap and serial . Also turkmen class is not better and smaller ship than milgem. max cost 200-250m dollar.

Solution is simpler than ever; Complete the first Istanbul Class while completing design of the TF-2000, meanwhile complete the RFP phase for 3 I-Class with ESSM and immediately after, start construction of the first TF-2000 in naval shipyard.
In parallel, complete MIDAS, and dedicated AA missiles to be used on TF-2000.

First Tf-2000 will be not come before than 2028. For 4 Tf-2000 it will take 2035-2040. Even Just in 1-2 year we can lose a battle on east med. I dont think about 20 years men.

 

[Anmdt]

Dont problem, I dont wait from this corvettes essm kind air defence capability hisar-a+ enough for him.

Then it doesn't provide any other capabilities, in fact we will end up spending a billion for 4 ship which even can not launch G40, or Hisar-O

First Tf-2000 will be not come before than 2028. For 4 Tf-2000 it will take 2035-2040. Even Just in 1-2 year we can lose a battle on east med. I dont think about 20 years men.

All 4 (even + 3) might be in service by 2030, if only the construction starts in 2022-3 which i believe it can, if they plan to acquire it truly. The first ship can be launched in 2025-2026 and following that serial production can be commenced.

Bro unit cost of milgem is 250m euro and its decreased on the last ships. Today we are producing hims subsystem more cheap and serial . Also turkmen class is not better and smaller ship than milgem. max cost 200-250m dollar.

RAM alone, on Ada-Class costs a few dozen millions of Euros (missiles 20 million + launcher). I would personally prefer a little more expensive I-Class with 64 ESSM than cheaper C92.
C92 however is a good corvette, not replacement for TF-2000 AAW Destroyer even not for I-Class or Ada-Class ,it can not fill the gap. We need proper AAW Destroyers.
If you refer to a C92 with the sensors and multi-role capabilities of the Ada-Class then it would roughly cost the same (substract cost of RAM). Size of the ship does not matter, but the sensors and equipment.

That's can be change of due political status. İf required its can be done easily with speed. But first missile and cold launch must be finish.

Barbaros MLU is the priority among other modernization programs,it already has 16 VLS it just needs a modernization, and it is the urgency. If there is going to be a VLS on Ada class it possibly will be MIDAS in Self defense length. (4.8 meters) and in MLU.

Bro, I dont agree with you, but there are options, sides of helicopter hangars or behalf of ram etc. Cold launch launchers gives a this advantage.

I already told you there are "alternative" locations, not the behind of the gun. I once used to claim 8 cell VLS might be fitted on there, since i have seen some blueprints, it happened to an extended version of Ada-Class with 8 Cell Self-Defense (or tactical) length VLS. Later it has evolved to I-Class with further demands from Navy -possibly-. So in short, there are alternative locations for VLS on Ada-Class and it is not behind of the cannon, extension of the constructed hull is not possible.
One of these are the side of the hangars, it comes with additional issues. Cold-Hot launch does not matter.
You are right to not agree because you haven't seen structural plans of the Ada-Class around the fore cannon,at the foot of the bridge.

Usable space of tactic modules are 5.6 meters. Possible length of gökdoğan max 3.5 meter, booster max 2 meter. total : 5.5 meter. İt still can fit.

If i am not mistaken Gökdoğan with a booster is the G40, so yes it should fit.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Then it doesn't provide any other capabilities, in fact we will end up spending a billion for 4 ship which even can not launch G40, or Hisar-O

Mate milgem's are not capable to hisar-o and g-40 but we are give him 1 billion . 200-250m dollar very cheap for that kind of ships. İf you dont agree try it

All 4 (even + 3) might be in service by 2030, if only the construction starts in 2022-3 which i believe it can, if they plan to acquire it truly. The first ship can be launched in 2025-2026 and following that serial production can be commenced.

Bro are you crazy or something ? Even building 4 milgems take 15 year. We talk about here 166 meter lenghted 7000+ tonnes aaw heavy destroyer or cruiser. Best option it will take 15-20 years min.

RAM alone, on Ada-Class costs a few dozen millions of Euros (missiles 20 million + launcher). I would personally prefer a little more expensive I-Class with 64 ESSM than cheaper C92.
C92 however is a good corvette, not replacement for TF-2000 AAW Destroyer even not for I-Class or Ada-Class ,it can not fill the gap. We need proper AAW Destroyers.
If you refer to a C92 with the sensors and multi-role capabilities of the Ada-Class then it would roughly cost the same (substract cost of RAM). Size of the ship does not matter, but the sensors and equipment.

C-92 doesnt have ram bro just gökdeniz + hisar-a/o maybe. İf we use Milgems with vls for fill the gap of 4x old gabyas on asuw submission, c-92 asuw version can fiil the gap of asuw corvette bro. Their range and sizes enough to do it on mediterranien, but of course we will be use frigates for asw on open sea fleets.

Barbaros MLU is the priority among other modernization programs,it already has 16 VLS it just needs a modernization, and it is the urgency. If there is going to be a VLS on Ada class it possibly will be MIDAS in Self defense length. (4.8 meters) and in MLU.

We will see bro.

I already told you there are "alternative" locations, not the behind of the gun. I once used to claim 8 cell VLS might be fitted on there, since i have seen some blueprints, it happened to an extended version of Ada-Class with 8 Cell Self-Defense (or tactical) length VLS. Later it has evolved to I-Class with further demands from Navy -possibly-. So in short, there are alternative locations for VLS on Ada-Class and it is not behind of the cannon, extension of the constructed hull is not possible.
One of these are the side of the hangars, it comes with additional issues. Cold-Hot launch does not matter.
You are right to not agree because you haven't seen structural plans of the Ada-Class around the fore cannon,at the foot of the bridge.

Yes I didnt see the foot of the bridge, for this reason I offer not burried cold launch missiles. General lenght of missile 3.5 meter around and thats will not close the front of bridge vision. But on the other hands we can apply that kind of solutions with help of cold launch ;

If i am not mistaken Gökdoğan with a booster is the G40, so yes it should fit.

G-40 is a version of gökdoğan diffrent wing typed and enlarged fuel sectioned version. G-40 will not use booster. İf you mix g-40 with booster you can be have siper kind of missile. But I prefer gökdoğan for first stage just because g-40 is not already finish.

 

[Anmdt]

Mate milgem's are not capable to hisar-o and g-40 but we are give him 1 billion . 200-250m dollar very cheap for that kind of ships. İf you dont agree try it

You seem to not understand me, or ignoring what i have said.
C-92's MICA-VL performance is similar of RAM on Ada-Class, and RAM has better probability of hit. both are point defence systems. (MICA can be used in aerial defense mode)
Ada-Class without RAM would have been cheaper, cost of I-Class is about 300 million, and can have 64 ESSM, 16 Hisar O or G40.

Yes I didnt see the foot of the bridge, for this reason I offer not burried cold launch missiles. General lenght of missile 3.5 meter around and thats will not close the front of bridge vision. But on the other hands we can apply that kind of solutions with help of cold launch ;

Mk56 can be used on sides of the hangar nearby to the ladder- note the area around hangar is used for Replenishment at sea, not entire of it can be covered-, 12 cell version can be fit on each side /at maximum. Its height is about 4.65 meters with also deck penetration is required (3.6 * 2.7 surface). 5.35 meters occupied by Mk41 (2.2 * 4.3 surface) self defense module seems more reasonable at the same place.

We will see bro.

Indeed we will.

C-92 doesnt have ram bro just gökdeniz + hisar-a/o maybe. İf we use Milgems with vls for fill the gap of 4x old gabyas on asuw submission, c-92 asuw version can fiil the gap of asuw corvette bro. Their range and sizes enough to do it on mediterranien, but of course we will be use frigates for asw on open sea fleets.

Milgem with VLS = I-Class, and all 4 will be in service b 2025 . Which is roughly the same time which C92 proposed by you can be in service.
I don't know sizes of Hisar-A or O but my point is, sparing C92 purely for short missiles will be a problematic limitation in the future, since you are offering C92s in place of TF2000 as a stop-gap.

Bro are you crazy or something ? Even building 4 milgems take 15 year. We talk about here 166 meter lenghted 7000+ tonnes aaw heavy destroyer or cruiser. Best option it will take 15-20 years min.

Not going to spend my time on here explaning this over and over, you can read past posts in PDF, or check out forums in Turkish to understand why it took that much, or check my post in Jinnah class frigate of the Pakistan in Pakistan defence section of the Defencehub to have a glimpse.

 

[Brave Janissary]

You seem to not understand me, or ignoring what i have said.
C-92's MICA-VL performance is similar of RAM on Ada-Class, and RAM has better probability of hit. both are point defence systems. (MICA can be used in aerial defense mode)
Ada-Class without RAM would have been cheaper, cost of I-Class is about 300 million, and can have 64 ESSM, 16 Hisar O or G40.

Mica-Vl and Ram is diffrent stories. One of that ship based stinger iir seekered sidewinder missile, Other one is radar guided and almost two times more range and alttitude capable missile.

Gökdeniz ciws on the ship will the rival of ram. But yes gökdeniz is the not an real rival for ram but gökdeniz will reach the same performance with help of hisar or vl mica on the front vls.

Or we can add him turkish made version of ram who uses sungur or sungur iir seekered bozdoğan missile like chineese did.

Mk56 can be used on sides of the hangar nearby to the ladder- note the area around hangar is used for Replenishment at sea, not entire of it can be covered-, 12 cell version can be fit on each side /at maximum. Its height is about 4.65 meters with also deck penetration is required (3.6 * 2.7 surface). 5.35 meters occupied by Mk41 (2.2 * 4.3 surface) self defense module seems more reasonable at the same place.

Agree.

Milgem with VLS = I-Class, and all 4 will be in service b 2025 . Which is roughly the same time which C92 proposed by you can be in service.
I don't know sizes of Hisar-A or O but my point is, sparing C92 purely for short missiles will be a problematic limitation in the future, since you are offering C92s in place of TF2000 as a stop-gap.

Look if specs and possible price of C-92 is a problem, there are another solutions ;

Like it : http://www.dearsan.com/tr/UrunlerD/13 74 meter asw/asuw corvette from dearsan we can change him ciws with ram or Turkish version of ram. İt could be great littoral asuw fleet corvette.

Not going to spend my time on here explaning this over and over, you can read past posts in PDF, or check out forums in Turkish to understand why it took that much, or check my post in Jinnah class frigate of the Pakistan in Pakistan defence section of the Defencehub to have a glimpse.

Bro build of first prototype of tf-2000 will takes 6 years . İf we achieve build 2 tf-2000 same time after that 5 years for another 2 tf-2000, and 5 years for 4th tf-2000 total 16 years min. I offer a make a quadpacked long range missile and gain a better sam capability than freem-aaw's and same sensor and battle managment system capability with him. Without any huge modernization . Whats wrong with him ?

And think about it if we make 100-120 km ranged quadpack long range air defence missile we can carry 64x essm/g-40 + 64 siper + 32 gezgin on 64 vls of tf-2000 behalf of 64 essm/g-40, 32x siper, 16x gezgin.

 

[Anmdt]

Mica-Vl and Ram is diffrent stories. One of that ship based stinger iir seekered sidewinder missile, Other one is radar guided and almost two times more range and alttitude capable missile

Please check guidance mode of MICA-VL and RAM before posting in here. MICA VL has 10 km range in self defense mode and comes in seperate RF - IIR guidance,range is roughly same as RAM, RAM is passive RF - IIR or dual mode guided.

Gökdeniz ciws on the ship will the rival of ram

Nope, totally irrelevant, a point defense system is not equal of CIWS, these are layered options and sole reason why there is oerlikon - phalanx on frigates with ESSM. Refresh your information, gökdeniz is a ciws, RAM is a point defense system like ESSM /MICA VL/CAMM (latter 3 has MR AA mode)
However, sole CIWS can be chosen as self-defense in absense of VLS. There is also mixed use of the both.

vl mica

since when we plan to get VL MICA?, there isn't any possibility of acquiring that, we are already developing G40
I don't deny the fact we also need short variant of MIDAS to integrate on Corvettes like C92 or Boats.

Bro build of first prototype of tf-2000 will takes 6 years

In naval industry there is nothing as prototypes, (unless in small sizes like boats) all ships are treated similarly to the non-serial production of tanks- fighter jets. What is called " serial production" is production of sister ship which eases resource management and training of personnel.
Serial production of other TF-2000 may start in 4th year of 1st Tf-2000.first TF-2000 will be commissioned in 6-7 years, yes that was what i told in the other forum, but at least 2-3 years will be spent with qualification and acceptance tests. The rest of ships may come in 4-5 years.
I can't summarize 4 years of naval architecture undergraduate programme in here, but possibly only first or second TF-2000 will be built by naval shipyard. The rest will be done in private shipyards in parallel. It won't take 16 years as you have claimed.
Milgem project took that long for particular reasons again this matter takes pages of explanation, 2 Jinnah frigates will be completed in quite short times (3-3.5 years each, 5 years in total).

Look if specs and possible price of C-92 is a problem, there are another solutions ;

Like it : http://www.dearsan.com/tr/UrunlerD/13 74 meter asw/asuw corvette from dearsan we can change him ciws with ram or Turkish version of ram. İt could be great littoral asuw fleet corvette.

the ship is quite capable as a corvette,and a good replacement for Burak class, never for Ada-Class, I-Class or Tf-2000, doesn't matter how many of these are produced they can not replace a TF-2000, and at least 4 of C92 needed to replace I-Class, 2 of C92 for Ada-Class. Which still costs more.
Instead of investing in C92-C74 (which won't be cheaper because its small, i repeat again, what matters is the sensors and weapons,most of budget is spent on these), using FREMM like sensors and radars on C92 will simply bump up its price, why to waste those on a corvette can be better repurposed on a frigate.
P.S: I am aware of the options you might further offer; me personally, or my friends took part in those projects -concepts.

Or we can add him turkish made version of ram who uses sungur

Sungur eventually will be navalized like MISTRAL (as RC-SIMBAD) i am positive for box launches which can hold large numbers as well. We need some more time for RAM equivalent. but Sungur won't be a 1 to 1 replacement for RAM.
I still opt for ESSM/G40+Gökdeniz on frigates (in size of Ada class to I class- possibly TF100 - TF2000) and naval sungur on Burak class like corvettes and FACs for shorad and point defense + with Gökdeniz.
It would be even better if sungur eventually evolves into crotale VT-1 /MICA VL like missile and quad packed in short VLS for corvettes.

without further ado, i am not against of developing a quad-packed LORAD if it is technically possible. i am just correcting your ideas of using C92 or Modifying Milgem --especially while there is incoming I-Class -- even before Barbaros MLU to close the gap, in addition to your price estimations solely based on size comparison, concluding that multiple C92 serve better. If truly we can develop such a system we can use those on future I-class ships, which already has 16 VLS. if i am not mistaken your first intention was to use C74-C92 in place of Ada-Class and yes , eventually, Ada-Class will turn into a multi-role frigate (probably after MLU) , note that we are still keeping Burak class, Navy might have intentions to have smaller ASuW vessels in future as well.
If your proposed missile is quad packed, I-Class, Barbaros Class and VLS on Gabya can serve the purpose you have meant. What makes TF-2000 herself is the CAFRAD, ability to track a thousand object, ability to detect smaller RCS targets at greater distance, guide multiple number of missiles to multiple number of targets meanwhile ensuring local area defense of the ships protected by her.

 

[Reviewbrah]

Brave Janissary

Your intentions are good but it takes time for systems to develop/mature to be adopted into active service. Standardization is very important in the navy, especially for logistics, training.

Without experiences learned from Milgem Ada-Class, there wouldn't be I-Class. Without I-Class there wouldn't be TF-2000. For example, there is many subsystems developed for Ada-Class that will be used for I-Class. Tech, experiences learned from both will be used at TF-2000.

When we use our local systems at the beginning its going to be far from perfect. Perfect is the enemy of good. For example, our first local warship TCG Berk was not even good but we successfully used it in Islands sea and during Cyprus liberation. Experiences learned from TCG Berk and its brother TCG Peyk greatly helped our improving naval and shipbuilding industry.

Hisar and our other air defence projects needs to reach a acceptable level in order for us to use it in our navy then which we will develop over time.

5-6 years is very short term in defense industry especially for very complex systems like this that we have been developing for the first time.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Please check guidance mode of MICA-VL and RAM before posting in here. MICA VL has 10 km range in self defense mode and comes in seperate RF - IIR guidance,range is roughly same as RAM, RAM is passive RF - IIR or dual mode guided.

Mica missile have two diffren version yes. But I'm talking about Rf one him. He have active radar seeker and thats make sense bro. And also his official datasheet stated he have 20 km range and 30000 feet alttitude. Almost two times more than ram.

Nope, totally irrelevant, a point defense system is not equal of CIWS, these are layered options and sole reason why there is oerlikon - phalanx on frigates with ESSM. Refresh your information, gökdeniz is a ciws, RAM is a point defense system like ESSM /MICA VL/CAMM (latter 3 has MR AA mode)
However, sole CIWS can be chosen as self-defense in absense of VLS. There is also mixed use of the both.

Yes, I agree with you , Point defense and ciws are not same but ciws + vls can be choosen behalf of ram.

since when we plan to get VL MICA?, there isn't any possibility of acquiring that, we are already developing G40
I don't deny the fact we also need short variant of MIDAS to integrate on Corvettes like C92 or Boats.

I dont understand why our shipbuilders uses vl mica's for short range defense to theirs ships. Yonca onuk do it same on his corvette design. I dont know maybe they are plan to use slyver a35 on their ships. But we have mdas if required we can use land launched bozdoğans (without booster or something) on ships with short module of mdas.

In naval industry there is nothing as prototypes, (unless in small sizes like boats) all ships are treated similarly to the non-serial production of tanks- fighter jets. What is called " serial production" is production of sister ship which eases resource management and training of personnel.
Serial production of other TF-2000 may start in 4th year of 1st Tf-2000.first TF-2000 will be commissioned in 6-7 years, yes that was what i told in the other forum, but at least 2-3 years will be spent with qualification and acceptance tests. The rest of ships may come in 4-5 years.
I can't summarize 4 years of naval architecture undergraduate programme in here, but possibly only first or second TF-2000 will be built by naval shipyard. The rest will be done in private shipyards in parallel. It won't take 16 years as you have claimed.
Milgem project took that long for particular reasons again this matter takes pages of explanation, 2 Jinnah frigates will be completed in quite short times (3-3.5 years each, 5 years in total).

Bro, I'm know very clearly to ssb. Ssb cant start any second ship, without they isnt finish first one. I'm really thrust to you but it's isnt logical. Just in example ; Around time in first steel cut of first ship and commission date of 4th ship of alvaro de bazan class and type-45 class is 9 years. 9 bigger years. And Tf-2000 more bigger and advanced and complex than that ships. Also English and Spanish military shipbuilding capabilities far better than us. İt will take 15 years min. And we dont know about there are possible subsytem bans of foreigners for stopping building of tf-2000 in the future.

the ship is quite capable as a corvette,and a good replacement for Burak class, never for Ada-Class, I-Class or Tf-2000, doesn't matter how many of these are produced they can not replace a TF-2000, and at least 4 of C92 needed to replace I-Class, 2 of C92 for Ada-Class. Which still costs more.
Instead of investing in C92-C74 (which won't be cheaper because its small, i repeat again, what matters is the sensors and weapons,most of budget is spent on these)
P.S: I am aware of the options you might further offer; me personally, or my friends took part in those projects -concepts.

Look bro, My problem is not finding ship for asuw corvette role it cant be same capable with milgem, milgem already is a big boy for his role. Tf-2000 and others diffrent story. Also size differs to meaning of less size means less tonage, les tonnage means less powered powerpack also less fuel consumption. That differs the cost and maintance.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Brave Janissary

Your intentions are good but it takes time for systems to develop/mature to be adopted into active service. Standardization is very important in the navy, especially for logistics, training.

Without experiences learned from Milgem Ada-Class, there wouldn't be I-Class. Without I-Class there wouldn't be TF-2000. For example, there is many subsystems developed for Ada-Class that will be used for I-Class. Tech, experiences learned from both will be used at TF-2000.

When we use our local systems at the beginning its going to be far from perfect. Perfect is the enemy of good. For example, our first local warship TCG Berk was not even good but we successfully used it in Islands sea and during Cyprus liberation. Experiences learned from TCG Berk and its brother TCG Peyk greatly helped our improving naval and shipbuilding industry.

Hisar and our other air defence projects needs to reach a acceptable level in order for us to use it in our navy then which we will develop over time.

5-6 years is very short term in defense industry especially for very complex systems like this that we have been developing for the first time.

Bro you say it wrong person. You should be that ANMDT bro. I'm not mean to make new and more complex ships in short times. I want to offer a solutions for fiil the gap of new ships until they come.

 

[Anmdt]

Mica missile have two diffren version yes. But I'm talking about Rf one him. He have active radar seeker and thats make sense bro. And also his official datasheet stated he have 20 km range and 30000 feet alttitude. Almost two times more than ram.

20 km is for air defense mode, 10 km is for point defence mode which is same with ram. It is related to maneuvers/agility needed to be conduct to intercept an anti ship/cruise missile differs from the one to intercept an aircraft. Additionally RAM comes with dual mode seeker, MICA doesn't.

without they isnt finish first one.

For I class it will happen. For TF-2000 it will not exactly happen, completion of construction and fitting of sensors will be waited before starting the second (If in naval shipyard construction of the second will start following completion of construction), let me keep it simple:
If second ship is constructed in Naval shipyard, then construction of the second ship will start when 1st hull is constructed. 3-4+ will start after sensors and radars are installed and 1st ship had started trials.
If second ship is not built in naval shipyard, which is very unlikely, 2-3-4+ will start as stated above, after sensors and radars are installed on 1st and trials started.

milgem already is a big boy for his role

Milgem is a multi-role corvette, it does ASW, ASuW, provides some air defense coverage. It was meant to be smaller, meant to have 2*21 RAM , yet requirements were added and the size has increased. So, briefly it is not big for its role. Again this is a discussion which took pages in other forums, including turkish ones.

I dont understand why our shipbuilders uses vl mica's for short range defense to theirs ships. Yonca onuk do it same on his corvette design. I dont know maybe they are plan to use slyver a35 on their ships. But we have mdas if required we can use land launched bozdoğans (without booster or something) on ships with short module of mdas.

Dearsan targets Turkmenistan market, or maybe ASEAN which France permits the sale of MICA VL.
Yonca Onuk didn't explicitly meant it was MICA, it can be CAMM from UK.

Also size differs to meaning of less size means less tonage, les tonnage means less powered powerpack also less fuel consumption. That differs the cost and maintance.

Machinery + maintenance of machinery + fuel costs a little, tiny little bit fraction of the sensor + radar + genset + personnel + consoles + maintenance of electronics.

 

[Anmdt]

Personal concepts - Sea

Drop your ideas here ;conceptual warship, submarine, aircraft carrier, amphibious assault platforms , submarines or convertibles anything that floats or submerges fits in. @dBSPL @UkroTurk

defencehub.live

@Brave Janissary
Also we have got this dedicated thread for personal concepts in naval platforms, if you have any ideas you can further post those in there so people can get to see your concepts better and in whole. Also you can create dedicated personal concepts threads, if it does not exist, in Air -Land warfare, or in general military forum if it is out of all major subforums.

 

[Brave Janissary]

20 km is for air defense mode, 10 km is for point defence mode which is same with ram. It is related to maneuvers/agility needed to be conduct to intercept an anti ship/cruise missile differs from the one to intercept an aircraft. Additionally RAM comes with dual mode seeker, MICA doesn't.

But in this c-92 concept vl-mica used for air defence and gökdeniz for point defence. So we must judge the vl mica for air defense generally againts asuw helicopters, ka series helicopters, any guided ammo without capable avoiding moves, ucavs or something.

For I class it will happen. For TF-2000 it will not exactly happen, completion of construction and fitting of sensors will be waited before starting the second (If in naval shipyard construction of the second will start following completion of construction), let me keep it simple:
If second ship is constructed in Naval shipyard, then construction of the second ship will start when 1st hull is constructed. 3-4+ will start after sensors and radars are installed and 1st ship had started trials.
If second ship is not built in naval shipyard, which is very unlikely, 2-3-4+ will start as stated above, after sensors and radars are installed on 1st and trials started.

Just a deal if tf-2000 construction will be like that I will give you 5000 turkish lira for gift . But if it cant gone happen like that, you will give to me 5000 tl ?

Milgem is a multi-role corvette, it does ASW, ASuW, provides some air defense coverage. It was meant to be smaller, meant to have 2*21 RAM , yet requirements were added and the size has increased. So, briefly it is not big for its role. Again this is a discussion which took pages in other forums, including turkish ones.

But problem is he builded behalf of D'Estienne d'Orves-class A69 type aviso corvettes, mainly designed for coastal anti-submarine defense . Not behalf of multirole corvette. For that reason I mean to say if we can increase his airdefence with additional vls's we can use him for asuw frigate . We need him on this mission just because our shipbuilding industry doesnt enough for renews our fleet in short term.

.

Dearsan targets Turkmenistan market, or maybe ASEAN which France permits the sale of MICA VL.
Yonca Onuk didn't explicitly meant it was MICA, it can be CAMM from UK.

İf I'm not wrong remember I could be read him from ekber onuks facebook page.

Machinery + maintenance of machinery + fuel costs a little, tiny little bit fraction of the sensor + radar + genset + personnel + consoles + maintenance of electronics.

Sapan ram or gökdeniz, atmaca's , and maybe hazar-d also his size and etc will be decrease his cost to 200m dollar band when compared ram or vl camm , harpoons, smart-s mk2 or something. Asuw corvette doesnt be very capable ships. Our old asuw corvettes buraks are has to used mm38 exoceet who have a range 42 km. Their missions save the fleet from submarines and scand the around of fleet with help of theirs good speed and maneuvrability

 

[Brave Janissary]

Personal concepts - Sea

Drop your ideas here ;conceptual warship, submarine, aircraft carrier, amphibious assault platforms , submarines or convertibles anything that floats or submerges fits in. @dBSPL @UkroTurk

defencehub.live

@Brave Janissary
Also we have got this dedicated thread for personal concepts in naval platforms, if you have any ideas you can further post those in there so people can get to see your concepts better and in whole. Also you can create dedicated personal concepts threads, if it does not exist, in Air -Land warfare, or in general military forum if it is out of all major subforums.

I will consider that bro thanks.

 

[Anmdt]

Just a deal if tf-2000 construction will be like that I will give you 5000 turkish lira for gift . But if it cant gone happen like that, you will give to me 5000 tl ?

Instead we can donate it to somewhere, yes deal.

İf I'm not wrong remember I could be read him from ekber onuks facebook page

They have posted 2 different large vessel concepts, the earlier one from 2000s (a multi role patrol vessel present in here) might have MICA/sea ceptor, the newer one could be CAMM, the VLS might be for exports only. Both are fired from short VLS so those are just representation to show occupied area/volumes, could be either of the systems or even a future indigeneous one.

But in this c-92 concept vl-mica used for air defence and gökdeniz for point defence. So we must judge the vl mica for air defense generally againts asuw helicopters, ka series helicopters, any guided ammo without capable avoiding moves, ucavs or something.

CIWS + Point defense is preferred altogether (like ESSM + CIWS), my point is in self defense mode it has range similar to the RAM, but RAM doesn't have more range in air defense mode if i presume. I still consider 1+ gökdeniz can be better on Ada-Class with current configuration.

 

[Brave Janissary]

They have posted 2 different large vessel concepts, the earlier one from 2000s (a multi role patrol vessel present in here) might have MICA/sea ceptor, the newer one could be CAMM, the VLS might be for exports only. Both are fired from short VLS so those are just representation to show occupied area/volumes, could be either of the systems or even a future indigeneous one.

I just see earlier one, there is a pic of newest one ?

CIWS + Point defense is preferred altogether (like ESSM + CIWS), my point is in self defense mode it has range similar to the RAM, but RAM doesn't have more range in air defense mode if i presume. I still consider 1+ gökdeniz can be better on Ada-Class with current configuration.

Where do you plan to put gökdeniz on ada class ?

 

[Turko]

Why not just acquiring sm2 ER missiles for G class from USA until indigenous Turkish frigates have been revealed?
Australian navy sells its Gabya's Perry's with SM 2 modernization.
Then you could have some Arial defense capacity.

Australia will sell two second-hand Adelaide-class guided missile frigates to Chile

Australian government will sell two second-hand Adelaide-class guided missile frigates (FFG) to Chile including the HMAS Melbourne and HMAS Newcastle

www.navyrecognition.com

Adelaide-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am begging you please pay little attention on my avatar. At least 16 YTKB with Gökdeniz CIWS or 8 of YTKB with HİSAR O + would strength defense umbrella.