Personal concepts - Sea

Anmdt

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Everything ok but SUNGUR .
Sungur is just pedestal mounted MANPAD which is very limited capacity and range.
How could engage SUNGUR anti-ship missiles which maneuver and skim?
How could patrol vessels engage with SUNGUR onto MALE UAV that flying over 7000m altitude.

Türkish variant of C-Dome ( it is said to be developing) which has compact shape Linked with MAR-D will be horror for any AShMs, MALE UAVs, Helis even it will be horror for fighters.
In my opinion naval sungur won't have restrictions on weight and size thus can get larger.
With Mar-d being able to detect even small kamikaze uavs, a ciws to eliminate top-attacking kamikaze and SAL ( detected through laser warning) smart munition, can be stopped by CIWS and sungur-d can target UAVs.
Laser warning systems or IRST systems are rather easy to install on naval platforms (since they can tolerate some additional weight), and since Aselsan is able to produce those it gives an upper hand to equip even patrol vessels to further detect loitering munition at a greater distance.
 

UkroTurk

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In my opinion naval sungur won't have restrictions on weight and size thus can get larger.
With Mar-d being able to detect even small kamikaze uavs, a ciws to eliminate top-attacking kamikaze and SAL ( detected through laser warning) smart munition, can be stopped by CIWS and sungur-d can target UAVs.
Laser warning systems or IRST systems are rather easy to install on naval platforms (since they can tolerate some additional weight), and since Aselsan is able to produce those it gives an upper hand to equip even patrol vessels to further detect loitering munition at a greater distance.
If Turkey developed more capable SAM that C-Dome or RAM equivalent, wouldn't be it great applying it on YTKBs?
Look even old M60 tanks have expensive APS, but we all don't question its necessary so Tuzla-Class which patrol vessels Turkish Navy relies on for secure EEZ and shores need decent real SAM system, don't they?



Engaging cruise missiles with SUNGUR seems unlikely to me.
Nonetheless we all agree that UAVs dominate current battles, in combat scenario Patrol vessels will meet a lot of medium - high altitude long endurance UAVs such as Heron, Bayraktar, Akıncı. Greeks also have those .

I suppose neither 40mm bofors nor SUNGUR could engage an UAV at 7000m altitude.

Long in short if Türkiye developing advanced point defence systems like C-Dome why don't use them?

YTKBs deserve decent SAMs.
 

UkroTurk

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İ was wondering if Turboprop aircraft could use ski-jump and i found the answer.
Because I also tried imagining that Vestel Karayel style UAVs were on TCG ANADOLU.
But still need to be figured out that turboprop UAV could land on LHD.

Look first ski-jump which was made from wood appeared on HMS Furious in order to heavily loaded Fairey Barracuda to take off.
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Design of Vestel Karayel more closer to navalized turboprob aircrafts.
Making several changes such as tail hook, lifted front wheels , they could be operational on LHD?
 

Spook

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Somehow need to add Unmanned submarine or naval vessel with sonar since it doesn't have a helicopter.

Someone had a comment on how a very good fusion can be made on a compact size like this with national systems. This concept does include an sonar along with DSH, Tork. If a platform like this can work well with unmanned systems like Aksungur and Ulaq, UUV it could make up for some of its disadvantages in that area. Platforms have different roles, not all should be armed like an frigate. Aim of a platform like this is cost-effective power projection capabilities. This can take many roles which would be normally done by a corvette or frigate and do it a lot less cost.
 

Spook

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Tolga's concept for cost-effective replacement for older fast attack craft classes. I wonder something like royal wingman can be done with FACs using Ulaq. Basically create confusion with having USVs that look very similar to the manned craft.

Fast attack craft concept needs to evolve to suit current threats. We still haven't seen the final design of FAC-55, I believe air defense capability will be prioritized. We could see something a lot different. 4 panel AESA radar. MDAS along with CIWS. FAC-55 is very expensive fast attack craft. It is wrong to call FAC-55 exactly a fast attack craft as it has very advanced systems/capabilities. FACs in concept supposed to be cheap and in large quantities. First design of FAC-55 we see it inheriting bad air defense capabilities of an FAC, it is not worth the cost if its going to have such disadvantage. If I am not wrong Navy wants something advanced like FAC-55 to make up for the delays in the national ship projects.

Ibrahim Sunnetci's Analysis

"In line with the Term-I Agreement Design Contract in the Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft Project, I expect STM engineers will make a series of modifications in the existing weapons and sensors configuration of the FAC-55 design to meet the TNFC’s changing requirements. In this context at least two alternative designs would be prepared each containing different weapons and sensors (one with some outsourced ITAR-Free equipment and indigenous weapon and sensor systems the other would contain both indigenous and foreign-origin weapon and sensor systems) layout pursuant to the CAATSA sanctions imposed in mid-December 2020 as well as the embargoes placed for several years. The modified FAC-55 design with indigenous weapon and sensor systems shall feature an X-Bant Multifunctional AESA Radar (scaled version of Aselsan ÇAFRAD CFR or HAZARD 3D) with a fixed or rotating antenna, ALPER LPI Navigation Radar, X-Band or Ku-Band SatCom Terminal, PIRI or PIRI-ES Infrared Search and Tracking (IRST) System, ARES-2N Radar ESM and AREAS 2NC Radar Electronic Attack Systems, ATMACA or OMGS Anti-Ship Guided Missiles with KEMENT Data Link System, AKR-D Block I (AKREP) Fire Control Radar, Laser Warning Receiver Systems (LWRS) and ADVENT Combat Management System (CMS). In case the 21-cell Mk49 Mod 3 RAM Launcher and RIM-116 Block IA/HAS or Block II Missiles could not be procured due to the CAATSA sanctions or the ongoing exports license embargo being imposed at least for the last three years, an alteration on the design can be proposed to enable the integration of either the 35mm GÖKDENİZ CIWS or the SUNGUR PMADS or SAPAN/ HİSAR A+ air defense missile systems"
 

UkroTurk

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Someone had a comment on how a very good fusion can be made on a compact size like this with national systems. This concept does include an sonar along with DSH, Tork. If a platform like this can work well with unmanned systems like Aksungur and Ulaq, UUV it could make up for some of its disadvantages in that area. Platforms have different roles, not all should be armed like an frigate. Aim of a platform like this is cost-effective power projection capabilities. This can take many roles which would be normally done by a corvette or frigate and do it a lot less cost.
The Submarines seem biggest threat for warships nonetheless Unfortunately sonars have very limited range. That's why corvettes use helicopters for ASW. Unmanned vessel ULAQ with sonar and ASW rockets would fit with this compact corvette.
 

Spook

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The Submarines seem biggest threat for warships nonetheless Unfortunately sonars have very limited range. That's why corvettes use helicopters for ASW. Unmanned vessel ULAQ with sonar and ASW rockets would fit with this compact corvette.

ASW exceed my knowledge. What I am trying to say is just not every ship needs state of the art capabilities. Cost-effectiveness is key. They have different roles, different needs. Best example is Tuzla-class, it has a sonar that performs better for close shore ASW very cost effectively. It's a very successful ship in its special role. Believe or not, it uses an commercial sonar and it works very well for that role as commercial sonar tech developed a lot faster due to competition. ULAQ's ASW variant would also use commercial sonar.

Not to forget in a war scenario, a ship like in the concept or Tuzla-class wouldn't be used alone.

With new advancements, so many things are changing. Unmanned systems will deeply affect all platforms. Also looking at future submarine capabilities, missile like IDAS, LPI radars, drones can give submarines air defense capabilities. It will change how ASW aircraft operate.
 

UkroTurk

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ASW exceed my knowledge. What I am trying to say is just not every ship needs state of the art capabilities. Cost-effectiveness is key. They have different roles, different needs. Best example is Tuzla-class, it has a sonar that performs better for close shore ASW very cost effectively. It's a very successful ship in its special role. Believe or not, it uses an commercial sonar and it works very well for that role as commercial sonar tech developed a lot faster due to competition. ULAQ's ASW variant would also use commercial sonar.

Not to forget in a war scenario, a ship like in the concept or Tuzla-class wouldn't be used alone.

With new advancements, so many things are changing. Unmanned systems will deeply affect all platforms. Also looking at future submarine capabilities, missile like IDAS, LPI radars, drones can give submarines air defense capabilities. It will change how ASW aircraft operate.
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We were discussing with you above posted compact design ship then you jumped on TUZLA class.
This compact design doesn't make the ship cheaper, given the fact that She has Hisar SAM system,MDAS, Korkut CİWS, MAR-D, AKR radars, 8 ATMACA, ASW torpedoes, rockets.

Those systems cost almost a price of TUZLA class.

You also asked if believed TUZLA Class had commercial radar. My answer suggestively is "yes".
 

UkroTurk

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İ found interesting solutions from PLAN.

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Notice the front HQ-10 how embellished old frigates
don't know if the pictures are Photoshopped either they are just mockups.Screenshot_2021-11-22-02-06-48-664_com.android.chrome.jpg
 

UkroTurk

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@Anmdt

Dear what do you think about MEKO CSL design? Does it seem to you reliable?

108.80 meter, 21 meter wide ( interesting!!) , 2750 ton. The design is very large.


Would it be too much expensive Corvette for us?

The design considers using different hull material ?



I don't know i liked the fixed panel AESA radars and there is no mess. Very smooth design gives 360 degree situation awareness.

Point Defence Systems would work great with fixed panels. Also there is space for VLS and Anti-ship missiles.

I really liked it.

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The CSL also has a rear mission bay, and could serve as a hub for Israel’s advanced UAVs and robotic naval USV/UUVs.
 
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UkroTurk

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İ didn't know Italians make modern midget submarines.

160 ton submarine just need 9 crew and can dive 150 meter. İt also has great load of weapons.

Crazy... They are as lethal as Fast Attack Crafts. Pakistan Navy and ROK Navy used to have those midgets.

BTW soon ROK Navy will have 500 ton mini submarine Which is being constructed.

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DG-160 Specification
Displacememt: 141 tons surfaced, 169 tons submerged
Length: 32.24 m
Width: 2.5 m hull diameter, 4.12 m with hydroplanes
Height: 6.45 m
Crew: 7 + 8 PAX
Range: 2,000 nm, 160 nm on batteries
Speed: 10 kt max, 5 kt cruising, 8.5 kt surfaced
Operating depth: TBC
Armament: 2 x 533mm torpedoes standard, plus 2 x 533mm torpedoes or 6 x mines in lateral tubes as mission-specific load
Other: 2 x SDVs or up to 6 x inflatable boats
Equipment: Passive sonar, active sonar, SWR Intercept Sonar, Radar Warning Receiver, TV periscope, Underwater Communications, Ring-Laster gyrocompass, echosounder, doppler velocity log, Electromagnetic log








German Shipyard Plans to Enter the Midget Submarine Market with New Design in 2021​

N-310 midget submarine (image and photos : Sutton)
On 6th September 2018 German shipyard Nordseewerke Emden revealed plans to build a new class of midget submarine, with a proposed launch date of 2021. The design appears aimed at the export market, particularly countries with existing relationships with German shipbuilding


The design is smaller than the 395 ton Type-201 Class which were Germany’s first postwar submarines. Despite the small size the N-310 has a relatively large diameter hull allowing two decks. The design is double-hulled with ballast tanks and torpedo tubes in the outer hull. The torpedo tubes are external to the pressure hull and not provided with reloads. A diver lock-out chamber appears to be located in the bow with a forward-facing payload bay exiting on the starboard side.


N-310 can carry two swimmer delivery vehicles (SDVs) in the saddle position, similar to the arrangement on previous German (and Italian) midget submarines. The SDVs depicted in the model appear to be generic representations of the two-person ’chariot’ layout. Today SDVs in this layout are built by Drass in Italy and Vogo in South Korea.
Specifications
-Displacement: 310 tons surfaced
-Length: 31.0 meters
-Beam: 6.5 meters
-Crew: TBC
-Speed: TBC
-Range: TBC
-Armament: TBC - provisionally 4 x torpedo tubes (size unclear)

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UkroTurk

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South Korea Displays New Mini-Sub Concept​


01 Desember 2011
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KS-550A Mini-Sub concept for RoKN (all photos : Network54)

South Korea's Agency for Defence Development (ADD) has unveiled an innovative mini-submarine concept - known as the KSS 500A - for the Republic of Korea Navy (RoKN).
The 37 m-long craft is intended to form the basis for a replacement of the two surviving Dolgorae-class mini-submarines, which entered service in the early 1980s. Design work is believed to have started in 2008 and the ADD is now selecting key systems suppliers.
According to a model and accompanying data released at the Marine Week 2011 exhibition in Busan in early November, the KSS 500A has a beam of 4.5 m, surfaced displacement of 510 tons and maximum diving depth of 250 m.
Notably, there are no onboard electrical generators; all electrical power is provided instead by two banks of lithium ion batteries. While the Dolgarae-class boats require frequent snorkelling, the KSS 500A is designed to require minimal snorkelling during a typical three-week patrol.
The streamlined sail houses up to four masts for electro-optic, radar, satellite communications and electronic security measures systems, and there is a fifth - modular payload - mast for launching small unmanned aerial vehicles.

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The pressure hull has four compartments: combat information centre, machinery room, special forces area and accommodation/messing. Weapons and sonars are installed in the forward section, while the integrated electric motor with coaxial flexible payload module (FPM) occupies the aft section.
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Control surfaces include two bow-mounted dive planes and an X-shaped stern. A podded motor, stator and rotor propel the submarine at a cruise speed of 5-7 kt, although a sprint speed of 20 kt is possible. However, the endurance of 21 days and range of 2,000 n miles at low speeds are severely curtailed at higher speeds.

Although the boat can be operated by a crew of five, the design complement is 10 persons using a two-watch system. Up to 14 special forces personnel can also be embarked. The FPM at the stern allows the deployment of divers, swimmer delivery vehicles and unmanned underwater vehicles.
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Armament comprises tubes for two heavyweight torpedoes and four lightweight torpedoes, located close to a payload interface module containing two box launchers: one for vertical-launch missiles, the other for mines. The KSS 500A is considerably larger than the Dolgorae-class boats. Built amid much secrecy, three Dolgoraes were commissioned in 1982-83 with pennant numbers 051-053. The legacy craft are about 25 m in length with a surfaced displacement of 250 tons. It is understood that five new mini-submarines are required by the RoKN, although induction timelines could not be ascertained.

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A few years ago South Korean submarine builder Hyundai unveiled the stunning HDS-500 (aka KSS-500A) midget submarine design. This week Janes' reported that Hyundai had begun constructon of a 40m long midget submarine, the HDS-400, for an undisclosed customer. The new designation suggests that the submarine is slightly smaller than the HDS-500 design with a surface displacement of 400 tons. The reported length of 40m however hich is slightly longer than the HDS-500.

Janes' article: hyundai-begins-construction-of-mini-submarine-for-undisclosed-customer

The customer is open to speculation. The HDS-500 was marketed to Thailand so the Royal Thai Navy (RTN) would be a reasonable guess, as would the South Korean Navy (ROKN). Additionaly Hyundai has a deal with an Indian shipyard concerning submarine technology and South Korea has submarine ties with Indonesia and Azerbaijan


HDS-500 Midget Submarine

The HDS-500 design features a distinct streamlines sail and 'X' form tail mounted behind an integrated pumpjet. Less obvious innovations include a mini wet-dry hangar in the tail.

Key:
a) Flexible Payoad Module (FPM)
b) Integrated sail
c) Intercept sonar
d) Hatches for Payload Modules
e) 533mm (21") torpedo tube (x2)
f) Conformal sonar array
g) 324mm (12.75") torpedo tubes (x4)
Specification
Length: 37 meters
Beam: 4.5 meter
Displacement: 510 tons surfaced
Speed: Maximum 20 kt submerged, 7 kt cruising
Operating depth: 250 meters
Endurance : 21 days, 2,000 nautical miles
Armament: 2 x 533mm (21") heavyweight torpedoes and 4 x 324mm (12.75") lightweight torpedoes.
Crew: 10 plus 4 combat swimmers



 
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UkroTurk

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China reveals new midget submarine design: MS200
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China recently revealed the MS200 midget submarine design at the Defense & Security 2017 defense exhibition in Bangkok, Thailand. The 200 tons submarine is a new single-hulled design which differs greatly from previous Chinese midget submarine designs. It is likely intended solely for export, being aimed at countries like Pakistan who are Chinese submarine customers and happen to have a fleet of midget submarines (Italian Cos.Mo.S MG110 type) which are due for replacement.


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Chinese midget submarines

MS200 is nearest camera. Then S600, S1100 with much larger S26T in background


MS200 Specification
Displacememt: 200 tons surfaced
Length: 30 m
Width: 3.6 m hull diameter
Height: 4.4 m
Crew: 6 + 8 PAX
Range: 1,500nm, with 120 nm on batteries
Endurance: 15 days
Speed: 8 kt max
Operating depth: TBC
Armament: 2 x 533mm torpedoes

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MS200 Midget Submarine
According to CSIC, the MS200 "adopt the form of the teardrop and single-hull structure. The sail has a three-dimension streamline shape, the steering plane adopts bow hydroplane and cross stern rudder."


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Displacing 200 tons, the design has a length of about 30 meters; a breadth of 3.6 meters and a height of 4.4 meters. In terms of performance, its maximum speed is about 8 knots, its submerged range is 120 nautical miles and mixed range about 1500 nautical miles. Its maximum diving depth is 200 meters. Its endurance is 15 days at sea. The service life of the submarine is 25 years.

The submarine can accommodate a crew of 6 sailors plus 8 special forces. Based on the model, MS200 has two torpedo tubes.
 
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