TR TF-X Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

hasanrize

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I think TUSAŞ can forget TİSU altogether. They have many projects to finalize, and I think they must prioritize their existing projects.

For drones, for God's sake, we have Baykar; let them do what they are best. Almost everybody with engineering capability tries to make drones; since big-size drones are all Baykar-made, they go for rotary wings and small stuff. It looks to me that Baykar doesn't mind leaving the small drone market to small guys.

Damaging the Baykar after AKP is exactly the same thing that was done to Nuri Demirağ. Absolutely bad and pure insanity. TUSAŞ and Baykar making totally different classes of drones. Noone trying to block sales of TUSAŞ, yet Baykar exporting more.
 

Huelague

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I think TUSAŞ can forget TİSU altogether. They have many projects to finalize, and I think they must prioritize their existing projects.

For drones, for God's sake, we have Baykar; let them do what they are best. Almost everybody with engineering capability tries to make drones; since big-size drones are all Baykar-made, they go for rotary wings and small stuff. It looks to me that Baykar doesn't mind leaving the small drone market to small guys.

Damaging the Baykar after AKP is exactly the same thing that was done to Nuri Demirağ. Absolutely bad and pure insanity. TUSAŞ and Baykar making totally different classes of drones. Noone trying to block sales of TUSAŞ, yet Baykar exporting more.
TAI has enough employee to handle both projects, manned and unmanned vehicles. And of course, enough experience in both sectors. Dont worry ;)
 

hasanrize

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TAI has enough employee to handle both projects, manned and unmanned vehicles. And of course, enough experience in both sectors. Dont worry ;)
They don't have enough employees, that is the point. Temel Kotil is always saying how desperate they are to find more employees all the time.

They also consume government money to run these projects meanwhile, Baykar can make R&D with its 1B$ income.
 

Huelague

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They don't have enough employees, that is the point. Temel Kotil is always saying how desperate they are to find more employees all the time.

They also consume government money to run these projects meanwhile, Baykar can make R&D with its 1B$ income.
Right now, TAI has 12.000 employees. More than 2.000 are working on TFX. If needed, more employees can be taken who works on other projects. And yes, much more employees are needed.

About our government, if they would invest more in advertising and selling on TAI products, more income could reach in R&D.

But dont let us devite in TAI and Baykar camps like typical turkish idiots, as we talk about a football club.
 

Mustafa27

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Can we stop please, Just ignore Fighter_35. The thread is getting derailed.
This is TF-X thread not UCAV thread, can the admin move the posts to the correct thread, please.
 

Yasar

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All nontopic posts have been moved to
https://defencehub.live/threads/kizilelma-¦-akinci-¦-aksungur-plus-various-turkish-unmanned-autonomous-programs.6/page-324
thread.
please stay on topic.
All moved posts will be checked and any pst found to be against forum rules will be dealt with.
 
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what

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An interesting article why Poland chose the Korean FA-50 Fighting Eagle light fighter, among other things like Lockheed not selling them F16, but also bang for buck and similarities to F16.


 

Yasar

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Engines that will power the initial batch of the TFX are probably going to be produced in Eskisehir by TEI.
Mahmut Aksit has stated that they are working on a model of production system with GE, whereby maximum amount of localisation will be achieved in the production of the F110GE129E engines that will power initial batch of TFX jets.

1661123292363.jpeg

According to below news, for the first prototypes of TFX planes two batches of 5 engines, in total, 10 engines were ordered to the US company GE. First batch of this order was delivered according to news published on 2nd of June this year.
Then it as revealed by Ismail Demir, that there would be 14 prototypes in total. 12 of these will have f110 engines and the remaining 2 will have indigenous engines. That means there is a need for minimum of 24 F110 engines.
So it is not certain if the initial batch of high degree of locally manufactured F110 engines are the remainder of the above prototype engines, or they are the engines for the first squadron or two that will be 4.5 generation planes that will fly with F110s.
 

heartbang

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Engines that will power the initial batch of the TFX are probably going to be produced in Eskisehir by TEI.
Mahmut Aksit has stated that they are working on a model of production system with GE, whereby maximum amount of localisation will be achieved in the production of the F110GE129E engines that will power initial batch of TFX jets.

View attachment 47081
According to below news, for the first prototypes of TFX planes two batches of 5 engines, in total, 10 engines were ordered to the US company GE. First batch of this order was delivered according to news published on 2nd of June this year.
Then it as revealed by Ismail Demir, that there would be 14 prototypes in total. 12 of these will have f110 engines and the remaining 2 will have indigenous engines. That means there is a need for minimum of 24 F110 engines.
So it is not certain if the initial batch of high degree of locally manufactured F110 engines are the remainder of the above prototype engines, or they are the engines for the first squadron or two that will be 4.5 generation planes that will fly with F110s.
why are F110 equipped TFX's regarded as 4.5 gen aircraft in the press?
 

Yasar

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why are F110 equipped TFX's regarded as 4.5 gen aircraft in the press?
Just a few reasons are:
1. They don’t have enough power to sustain a 5th generation plane’s power requirements (Aesa Radar, avionics and energy weapons like microwave/ laser weapons etc)
2. They are noisy. Stealth planes’ noise levels should be low
3. IR signature too high. Optimisation of nozzle geometry has not been done. Therefore more detectable than a 5th generation plane engine.
4. Air intake has not been optimised to give less RCS .
 

Radonsider

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Just a few reasons are:
1. They don’t have enough power to sustain a 5th generation plane’s power requirements (Aesa Radar, avionics and energy weapons like microwave/ laser weapons etc)
2. They are noisy. Stealth planes’ noise levels should be low
3. IR signature too high. Optimisation of nozzle geometry has not been done. Therefore more detectable than a 5th generation plane engine.
4. Air intake has not been optimised to give less RCS .
1- electric generation is not much of a problem, at least for now, and there are also APU's. But yeah in the future an engine with more power gen would be good

2- Noise is not a big problem for now, at least when the F110 TF-X will be around

3-IR signature is not too high, yes it is higher compared to F-22 or F-35 but that's mainly because of lack of secondary air walls. TF-X' still going to have air scoops(F-35) and various other thermal absorbers over the body to achieve IR reduction.

4-Yes, Radar reflection from the back would be a problem, but does this make it "unstealthy"? You can still have refractions from turbines itself in F-35 etc, but radar reflections are reduced there, that's a fact.

5- intake has little to nothing with engine.
+Stealth Wedge intake is still stealth, F-22 has it you know

(If you think about DSI, it limits performance over Mach 1.6
But regardless of TF-X not using it (I suppose), seems like we don't really have the tech to do it, because Kızılelma is not a high speed platform and still has classic stealth wedge, or they plan on making Kızılelma a high speed platform on the future with better engines, who knows)


By this given info, I won't classify this jet as 4.5 gen but a 5th gen with reduced IR performance
 

Afif

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I don't know if guys know that, there is a new classification for su57 as 4.7 gen fighter😂. I think, it can be applied for tfx block 0s too!😊
 

Afif

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Most of the subsystems of tfx is seems more or less on per with f35. However, I am quite skeptical about the the aselsan's 'FLIR' or 'missile warning system' being as capable as f35s EOTS and DASS. ( the fact that, tfx need an separate IRST on the nose with some compromise in stealth means that, aselsan doesn't have the techology right now to combine FLIR and IRST in one architecture like lockheed martin's EOTS) also I am not quite sure, if the TFX's central computer and ew suite will be as capable as f35's ones! Does any of turkish freinds here has more comparative data on these issues? Because, if these gap exist TFX will be at considerable disadvantages compared to greek f35.
 
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Tonyukuk

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Most of the subsystems of tfx is seems more or less on per with f35. However, I am quite skeptical about the the aselsan's 'FLIR' or 'missile warning system' being as capable as f35s EOTS and DASS. ( the fact that, tfx need an separate IRST on the nose with some compromise in stealth means that, aselsan doesn't have the techology right now to combine FLIR and IRST in one architecture like lockheed martin's EOTS) also I am not quite sure, if the TFX's central computer and ew suite will be as capable as f35's ones! Does any of turkish freinds here has more comparative data on these issues? Because, if these gap exist TFX will be at considerable disadvantages compared to greek f35.
To be fair, by the time TFX enters full production, I think Aselsan will have it all figured out. If there's one thing that the Turkish defence industry excels at, its electronic sub systems. I think our only concern with the TFX project should be engines.
 

Yasar

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1- electric generation is not much of a problem, at least for now, and there are also APU's. But yeah in the future an engine with more power gen would be good

2- Noise is not a big problem for now, at least when the F110 TF-X will be around

3-IR signature is not too high, yes it is higher compared to F-22 or F-35 but that's mainly because of lack of secondary air walls. TF-X' still going to have air scoops(F-35) and various other thermal absorbers over the body to achieve IR reduction.

4-Yes, Radar reflection from the back would be a problem, but does this make it "unstealthy"? You can still have refractions from turbines itself in F-35 etc, but radar reflections are reduced there, that's a fact.

5- intake has little to nothing with engine.
+Stealth Wedge intake is still stealth, F-22 has it you know

(If you think about DSI, it limits performance over Mach 1.6
But regardless of TF-X not using it (I suppose), seems like we don't really have the tech to do it, because Kızılelma is not a high speed platform and still has classic stealth wedge, or they plan on making Kızılelma a high speed platform on the future with better engines, who knows)


By this given info, I won't classify this jet as 4.5 gen but a 5th gen with reduced IR performance
With all due respect to what you have written here, how do you know that electric generation, noise issue, IR signature and sound performance of the F110 engine won’t be any problem? Do you have concrete figures that support your suppositions to share with us?
If what you suppose were the case, there would be no need to develop a 5th generation engine specific to this plane. There would be no mention of 5th generation class engines.

Another point I have not included among the list would be the engine’s thrust potential to be high enough to support plane’s high supercruise capability.

Those guys in TEI and TAI and those guys in P&W and GE must see these points as lacking and not up to 5th generation requirements in the F110 as is. Hence they see the need to develop an engine that is suitable to provide above 5th generation properties.

Regarding engine fan design/inlet of turbofan with respect to stealth properties and electromagnetic scattering;

Quote:
With the continuous advancement of rotor dynamic electromagnetic scattering research, the radar cross-section (RCS) of turbofan engines has attracted more and more attention. In order to solve the electromagnetic scattering characteristics of a biaxial multirotor turbofan engine, a dynamic scattering method (DSM) based on dynamic simulation and grid transformation is presented, where the static RCS of the engine and its components is calculated by physical optics and physical theory of diffraction. The results show that the electromagnetic scattering of the engine is periodic when the engine is working stably, while the rotors such as fans and turbines are the main factors affecting the dynamic electromagnetic scattering and the ducts greatly increase the overall RCS level of the engine. The proposed DSM is effective and efficient for studying the dynamic electromagnetic scattering characteristic of the turbofan engine.

Unquote

PS
APU of all jet planes are there for starting power for the main engines, Pneumatic power for cabin air conditioning systems, Shaft power for other pneumatic and hydraulic systems, Back up and emergencies, Electric and pneumatic power for ground operations with the engines shut down.
Nothing to do with 5th generation power requirements.
 
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Radonsider

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Most of the subsystems of tfx is seems more or less on per with f35. However, I am quite skeptical about the the aselsan's 'FLIR' or 'missile warning system' being as capable as f35s EOTS and DASS. ( the fact that, tfx need an separate IRST on the nose with some compromise in stealth means that, aselsan doesn't have the techology right now to combine FLIR and IRST in one architecture like lockheed martin's EOTS) also I am not quite sure, if the TFX's central computer and ew suite will be as capable as f35's ones! Does any of turkish freinds here has more comparative data on these issues? Because, if these gap exist TFX will be at considerable disadvantages compared to greek f35.
From Anatolian Eagle 2021/2, it was stated that BEOS will have greatly better quality than ASELPOD, so I don't think that there will be problems with BEOS,
So about IRST, I need to check what they offer, but the chances are I can't find anything.
But with given experience of ASELSAN in thermal sights (which is top tier), I don't think that they would create a bad one, and having both BEOS and IRST is because of cooling and performance iirc.
And the new IRST hub is stealthy, just like BEOS and EOTS.
DASS (FSS) is also a branch of thermals, but I am not so sure about how they gather image and produce it, but as I said before, ASELSAN has good experience for these on ground.

Also, even if we know, we can't give you the stats.
 

Radonsider

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With all due respect to what you have written here, how do you know that electric generation, noise issue, IR signature and sound performance of the F110 engine won’t be any problem? Do you have concrete figures that support your suppositions to share with us?
If what you suppose were the case, there would be no need to develop a 5th generation engine specific to this plane. There would be no mention of 5th generation class engines.

Another point I have not included among the list would be the engine’s thrust potential to be high enough to support plane’s high supercruise capability.

Those guys in TEI and TAI and those guys in P&W and GE must see these points as lacking and not up to 5th generation requirements in the F110 as is. Hence they see the need to develop an engine that is suitable to provide above 5th generation properties.

Regarding engine fan design/inlet of turbofan with respect to stealth properties and electromagnetic scattering;

Quote:
With the continuous advancement of rotor dynamic electromagnetic scattering research, the radar cross-section (RCS) of turbofan engines has attracted more and more attention. In order to solve the electromagnetic scattering characteristics of a biaxial multirotor turbofan engine, a dynamic scattering method (DSM) based on dynamic simulation and grid transformation is presented, where the static RCS of the engine and its components is calculated by physical optics and physical theory of diffraction. The results show that the electromagnetic scattering of the engine is periodic when the engine is working stably, while the rotors such as fans and turbines are the main factors affecting the dynamic electromagnetic scattering and the ducts greatly increase the overall RCS level of the engine. The proposed DSM is effective and efficient for studying the dynamic electromagnetic scattering characteristic of the turbofan engine.

Unquote

PS
APU of all jet planes are there for starting power for the main engines, Pneumatic power for cabin air conditioning systems, Shaft power for other pneumatic and hydraulic systems, Back up and emergencies, Electric and pneumatic power for ground operations with the engines shut down.
Nothing to do with 5th generation power requirements.
1- I said they are not an issue for now, they will be a problem when TAI/Havelsan decides to increase AI etc. And keep in mind that 2 of these F110s also keep F-15EX at the sky, yeah TF-X will probably consume more power, but at least for IOC, it should be enough.

I didn't said F110 won't have IR problems, but it won't be a great difference, as IR performance hugely depends on air scoops and thermal isolation of the body, you can't really achieve IR stealth with only engine or only body, that's why I said it will have worse IR, but this doesn't mean that it is going to shine

As you can see, in non IR stealth jets, body around the engine shines while in F-22, only where the engine is situated shines, and that's the result of body and engine combined.

For noise, at least for now, or for the limited time it is going to be used, there are no noise triangulation method to find enemy aircraft, there will definetly be in the future, but not for now.


Yes you are right about supercruise, it wont be around 1.5-1.6 Mach with F110 for sure, but I didn't list it either because most of 5th gens don't have high supercruise capability.

Hmm, so you were talking about "fan" inlet and blades, yes you are right, but how much is it going to affect and we just dump down all geometric stealth and call it a 4.5?

And yes you are right, I confused it with electric generation on ground to electric generation on air.


PS: I never said we don't need an engine, I just stated the reason why it can't be 4.5th gen with it, for it to be 4.5, it must lack VLO geometry+RAM, and KF-21 lacks:
Serrated edges, RAM (to some extent), canopy coating and various other stealth features, that's why it is not a true 5th gen but something in between 4.5 and 5


TF-X is like J-20 with older engines, it is still 5th gen because VLO and subsystems but lacks IR stealth of engine and has worse performance than what it should have
 

Radonsider

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I don't know if guys know that, there is a new classification for su57 as 4.7 gen fighter😂. I think, it can be applied for tfx block 0s too!😊
Su-57 lacks VLO geometry, what about 4.9? :D
 

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