TR TF-X KAAN | F-16 Özgür | Hürjet | Hürkuş - Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

dBSPL

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Please don't misunderstand, but I find these generation discussions really strange. There are significant differences and advances between the 4th and 5th generation, but when it comes to the transition to the 6th generation, there are not so clear lines. The leading argument for the 6th generation is engine technologies, but won't these engines be integrated into the fifth generation jets when they are ready? Coating technologies, sensor fusion, advanced displaying systes and augmented reality decision support systems, you name it... What is referred to as 6th generation actually means something like 5.5/5++. Technically, almost all of the systems that will be included in these aircraft can be integrated with the 5th generation jets, unless someone is willing to go to the cost of creating a highly maneuverable air superiority jet with 9G and without any vertical stabilizers. A 6th generation fighter jet for Europe is probably another 15 years away, for it to really pay off. It remains to be seen what the US will come up with with NGAD, but in any case this jet will be an extraordinarily expensive aircraft, even for the US. Also I still have a very low expectation that we will see an air superiority jet with vertical stabilizers completely removed from the tail. Of course, future combat aviation is gradually moving from close engagement capabilities to electronic capabilities and engagement over very long distances, which is another aspect of the issue.

The MMU is essentially a platform that aims to go far beyond most traditional 5th generation conceptualizations of the early 2000s. But here I think we have a big challenge ahead of us in terms of the engine. actually not 1 but two: The first is to reach the variable cycle engine for next generation military aircrafts within 15 years. The second is to reach the maturity to use directed-energy weapons at supersonic speeds and against highly maneuverable aircraft/ammunitions.

To summarize other capability criteria to describing 6th gen:
* AI, data fusion, cyber warfare, D2D and battlefield command, control and communications (C3) capabilities
* Optionally manned with the same airframe, onboard-AI controlled missions.
* Enhanced human-systems integration, with virtual cockpits presented via helmet-mounted displays, AI-enhanced battlefield awareness.
* Advanced stealth airframes and avionics (this is the most critical issue, NGAD will be quite decisive in that respect)
* Joint misson capability with uncrewed Collaborative Combat Aircrafts
* Increased-range stand-off and BVR weapons
etc.

All of these are included in the MMU roadmap already. And if we keep everything on schedule, we will probably have the first generation of indigenous engines within 15 years. Again, when the GCAP or FCAS will come out of the first block production line, probably MMU will have completed its fourth or fifth block update, and It will be a platform that meets many of the above criteria. But above all, we are now advancing a fighter jet program without a partner. This is accompanied by massive investments in infrastructure and the hirings that now number in the thousands annually. What makes the MMU valuable is that, unlike previous attempts to build a fighter jet that were abandoned by some promising countries before, this is an industrial breakthrough far beyond a building just a aircraft. In short, in those years, the next step will probably have already been started.
 
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Zafer

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We are creating an aviation industry that can make a cutting edge fighter jet complete with its every aspect. It is only natural that we can update our planes as we go. TFX in particular is multirole and it is big enough to accommodate many upgrades down the road. Once you make its engine powerful enough it will support the changing power requirements of the plane in its future iterations, which is what we are doing.
 

Afif

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@dBSPL excellent post. Mostly, i agree with you assessment. 6th gen is not as big leap as 5th gen platforms were from 4th gen.

And also i think Tempset and FCAS should be consider as 5.5 platforms.

And it should be possible for MMU to match Tempset and FCAS capabilites with similar avionics, sensors and weapon package upgrade.

However, if MMU's design is not significantly enhanced in later blocks, I doubt with current shape MMU can physically perform as good as Tempset and FCAS.

Even though you are doubting if there would any 'true' 6th gen platform with a complete new design, ( without vertical stabilizers ) I would insist we will see them in the near future.

Because in my opinion, unlike everybody else, these two countries ( US and PRC has the financial means and the industrial capability to pull off something completely unprecedented ( specially United States, when F-22 and F-23 came out it was almost beyond anybody's imagination )

Although NGAD and FA-XX program are shrouded with secrecy for now, Chinese are already gave multiple clues how their 6th gen platform might look like.
1679937753110.png

1679937780780.png




I would expect similar design for NGAD. ( and probably for FA-XX too )

Yes it would be very expensive, and I think that is why USAF initially planning to buy only 200 of them to replace raptors.
 
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Radonsider

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@dBSPL excellent post. Mostly, i agree with you assessment. 6th gen is not as big leap as 5th gen platforms were from 4th gen.

And also i think Tempset and FCAS should be consider as 5.5 platforms.

And it should be possible for MMU to match Tempset and FCAS capabilites with similar avionics, sensors and weapon package upgrade.

However, if MMU's design is not significantly enhanced in later blocks, I doubt with current shape MMU can physically perform as good as Tempset and FCAS.

Even though you are doubting if there would any 'true' 6th gen platform with a complete new design, ( without vertical stabilizers ) I would insist we will see them in the near future.

Although NGAD and FA-XX program are shrouded with secrecy for now, Chinese are already gave multiple clues how their 6th gen platform might look like.
View attachment 55466
View attachment 55467



I would expect similar design for NGAD. ( and probably for FA-XX too )

Yes it would be very expensive, and I think that is why USAF initially planning to buy only 200 of them to replace raptors.
Ngl, that Chinese looks like a MMU without the tail section :D
 

Rooxbar

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Also not every generation transition is as clear-cut as the 4th to 5th gen transition (what with all the stealth characteristic geometry requirements). The transition from 5th to 6th will be much more murky akin to 2nd-3rd gen transition probably if the 6th gen doesn't come to be defined by variable cycle engines. Even then it will not be as incisive, since you will be theoretically able to replace the engines of your 5th gen fighters with minimal design restructuring. What could potentially make it more of a sharp difference between 5th and 6th gen is a possible transition to a more flying-wing configuration as manifested in several conceptual arts. Because then you can't make your 5th gen fighter into 6th gen, just by replacing components.
 

uçuyorum

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Also not every generation transition is as clear-cut as the 4th to 5th gen transition (what with all the stealth characteristic geometry requirements). The transition from 5th to 6th will be much more murky akin to 2nd-3rd gen transition probably if the 6th gen doesn't come to be defined by variable cycle engines. Even then it will not be as incisive, since you will be theoretically able to replace the engines of your 5th gen fighters with minimal design restructuring. What could potentially make it more of a sharp difference between 5th and 6th gen is a possible transition to a more flying-wing configuration as manifested in several conceptual arts. Because then you can't make your 5th gen fighter into 6th gen, just by replacing components.
I mean it starts with a vision. 4th gen had a vision about agility, 5th gen had the idea of stealth. I feel like EU just went we wanna make a 6th gen fighter and one up US in aviation yet didn't have a clear vision. But they couldn't agree with each other because multiple large companies like BAE, Leonardo, Dassault, Airbus etc. too many chefs in the kitchen so we have 2 projects. It feels like US has a far clearer idea of what they are trying to achieve with NGAD with the dominate air with all systems working together and all means necessary concept. There is no other air force with comparable scale and reach, these are what determines practical requirements. But even then as 4th gen went on F16 evolved away from agile dogfighter to something completely else and that's probably why F35 is so fat with so many components.
 

dBSPL

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In conclusion, the fact that the MMU project will make its first flight at prototype level in 2023 will, if all goes well, give it a distinct advantage over other European projects, which are still 10 years away from their first flight at best and claiming to reach 6th generation probably for another 10 years. There are many important challenges for the Turkish aviation industry to face, the most important of which will be in the area of engine development. We cannot ignore these risk factors, but the fact that we have been able to bring things to this point without going beyond the project schedule is in itself one of the points where our industry has proven its mettle.

In the 2040s, MMU will be one of the most unknown X factors of the European skies and will create a strategic multiplier for TR. Moreover, when we reach those years, we will probably have achieved the first flight experience in our optionally manned combat jet project in the style of the image shared by dear Afif above.

In 20 years, it is more or less predictable where KE and Anka-3 will be and what the new aircraft that will come as the successors of these projects will be. In the last two decades, there has been a significant concentration, will and technological accumulation in the field of combat aviation, from tactical level to front-line fighters. In order to understand the results of this, it is necessary to look at it over a period of ten-to-ten years. Almost all of the work that we are proud of today is based on work that offically started ten years ago. To understand where we are ten years from now, it is necessary to understand the acceleration of the past decade.

I can think of nothing better to symbolize the new century of the Republic than the first flight of the MMU and KE together. This phrase is not a cliché, we could write thousands of pages about it.
 

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Also not every generation transition is as clear-cut as the 4th to 5th gen transition (what with all the stealth characteristic geometry requirements). The transition from 5th to 6th will be much more murky akin to 2nd-3rd gen transition probably if the 6th gen doesn't come to be defined by variable cycle engines. Even then it will not be as incisive, since you will be theoretically able to replace the engines of your 5th gen fighters with minimal design restructuring. What could potentially make it more of a sharp difference between 5th and 6th gen is a possible transition to a more flying-wing configuration as manifested in several conceptual arts. Because then you can't make your 5th gen fighter into 6th gen, just by replacing components.
The problem of 6th gen designation was discussed last year in this thread. You can head to page 280 and read from there.

This was from @Windchime on Dec 9,2022

So, which feature could warrant a fighter jet "6th gen" nameplate? A generational difference indicates a difference that fundamentally cannot be achieved by previous generations. Well, unless you significantly alter the origonal design, which at that point I'll rather call it a different plane.

For example a 1st gen fighter could never achieve supersonuc speeds on level flight or doing combat maneuvers. 2nd gen can't BVR since most of them don't have the provisons for the necessary avionics, nor the generator capacity. 3rd gen distributed avionics cannot be replaced with a federated one. 4th gen isn't stealth. All of those are what I would call a generational difference.

In that sense it is very hard to distinguish a feature that cannot be implemented onto the current 5th generational figthers, or more to be exact the F-35 and J-20 and those which could be. DEW or man-unmanned teaming often gets brought up, but those are things that the USAF are considering for future F-35 blocks. AI is already implemented to a certain degree, and a higher sophistication could be achieved with a better computer and software, which aren't irreplaceable for an integrated modular design of F-35. VCE is also being considered for block-4 with existing prototypes. Almost every other features brought up in this thread are already being implemented to 5th gen or could be implemented.

One thing I could think of is a wide-band stealth technology, or in simpler terms removing, or at least reducing vertical planes of the aircraft. Then again this was already explored with the likes of YF-23.

My suggestion would be to just wait for NGAD to arrive. US has been the pioneer in this regard for decades now and will almost certainly suggest us what the definition of 6th gen might or should be.

One thing's for certain though, and that's that the MMU cannot be 6th gen for obvious reasons. So are F-35, J-20 or J-35. I think there's a high chance that the GCAP and NGF are rather 5.5th ven fighters, not 6th gen when they arrive. Same thing happened in the 80s and 90s when the US was busy developing ATF while Europe was still stuck with EAP. No one can say for certain that same thing won't happen again in 2020s and 30s.
 

Cabatli_TR

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In conclusion, the fact that the MMU project will make its first flight at prototype level in 2023 will, if all goes well, give it a distinct advantage over other European projects, which are still 10 years away from their first flight at best and claiming to reach 6th generation probably for another 10 years. There are many important challenges for the Turkish aviation industry to face, the most important of which will be in the area of engine development. We cannot ignore these risk factors, but the fact that we have been able to bring things to this point without going beyond the project schedule is in itself one of the points where our industry has proven its mettle.

In the 2040s, MMU will be one of the most unknown X factors of the European skies and will create a strategic multiplier for TR. Moreover, when we reach those years, we will probably have achieved the first flight experience in our optionally manned combat jet project in the style of the image shared by dear Afif above.


Europe actually had superior technology in the field of unmanned systems in the times when we demand armed drones from West but although they made technology demonstration projects for gas turbine propelled systems on unmanned systems, they could not place such systems in their armies in terms of operational capability. They have cancelled some of their projects because of monetary issues or other things. That's why what Turkiye did on the battlefield with a low speed and cheap tactical drone created a wake-up call for them in last years and we saw headlines in their mainstream media that we hadn't seen before in favor of Turkish drone technology because they had never predicted such a result in multiple battlefield and we faced lots of embargos in the end.

Nowadays, we experience at a time when European perception doesn't take Turkish aviations (supersonic field) capabilities seriously, Turkiye launched the prototype of light combat aircraft and 5th generation fighter jet before Europe and also prototypes of 2 unmanned fighter aircrafts are gaining operational capabilities and future variants will have supersonic features as well.

One day in the future, when they see that we use TFX/KE/Anka3-4 systems effectively in the Turkish war concept and defeat the enemy, they will again realize the seriousness of the things Turks have done. That's why I think that the cooperability skills, AI capabilities of those systems and Turkish unamnned/manned tactics and EW capabilities should always be kept a secret in order for the surprise effect of these systems to be felt most deeply on the other side when the time come.

No one should be able to guess what this tactical understanding which destroyed the most famous air defense systems of Russians with a small propeller drone, could do with these new systems and way superior technologies/munitions, until an enemy whose brain came out and demanded punishment.
 

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"We signed a protocol with Ege University Rector Mr. Necdet Budak to establish an Advanced Coatings, Thin Films and Surface Research Laboratory."

Screen Shot 2023-03-28 at 11.05.57.png
 

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Bogeyman 

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Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir: "MMU will have various power tests etc. After that, we would like to give a clearer day. We said 2025-26 at the beginning. We say let's pull it to 2024. Actually, we say good surprise is good. Stay tuned.

Let's not get too tight in aviation, especially in flight. Our friends step on the gas more when they see the light at the end of the tunnel. Our friends are going to make sweet surprises..."
 

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