TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Quasar]

So,what do you suggest instead of the KAAN 4.5?

I Think we should have more 5 gen KAAN than 4,5 KAAN bro in the long run This is whats gonna happen anyway

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yes,200 KAAN 4,5 gen and 100 KAAN 5th gen should be possible no?
Until the engine is ready for production(2030?),all KAAN's will be 4,5 gen,so why the need for other 4+ gen's?

Prior to our expulsion from F35 program, the idea was to have around 100 F35s in place of F4s, and the TFX were to replace the 240 or so aging F16 jets. Thus giving Turkish armed forces over 350 combatant jets.

Irrespective of the timescales given, the total combatant count for the Turkish Airforce seems to be assessed such that it should consist of 350 to 400 modern jets to be able to be a deterrent and deal with the potential threat levels around us. This is a fine calculation that needs to take in to account the financial constraints as well as threat levels, finding an acceptable balance.

Without the indigenous engine the KAAN is going to be a fairly stealthy 4+ (4.5 or 4+) generation fighter jet. Here I am taking the definition of 4++ plane being totally stealthy but a notch below 5th generation planes.
In other words assuming that 4.5/4+ generation has limited stealth.
Then again, with all the high tech we have put in to this plane the initial batch can be 4++ generation. We will know when it is ready.

The KAAN, could not be ready in numbers before 2030. Worst case this may even be extended to 2035. That would leave Turkish airforce exposed and at a disadvantage. If we can make up the numbers with KAAN 4+ generation planes, that is great. If not, then we would need 2 to 3 squadrons of 4+ generation aircrafts to bridge the missing numbers.

Consequently, we should in the end have 100-150 Stealth KAANs and around 250 4+ generation fighter jets, be it KAAN or F16 Özgür/V70 or Typhoons.
It would be most advantageous to have the Typhoons with their ECRS MK2 Aesa radars as they would be the best in their class and give us a lot of insider knowledge about it.

 

[uçuyorum]

Prior to our expulsion from F35 program, the idea was to have around 100 F35s in place of F4s, and the TFX were to replace the 240 or so aging F16 jets. Thus giving Turkish armed forces over 350 combatant jets.

Irrespective of the timescales given, the total combatant count for the Turkish Airforce seems to be assessed such that it should consist of 350 to 400 modern jets to be able to be a deterrent and deal with the potential threat levels around us. This is a fine calculation that needs to take in to account the financial constraints as well as threat levels, finding an acceptable balance.

Without the indigenous engine the KAAN is going to be a fairly stealthy 4+ (4.5 or 4+) generation fighter jet. Here I am taking the definition of 4++ plane being totally stealthy but a notch below 5th generation planes.
In other words assuming that 4.5/4+ generation has limited stealth.
Then again, with all the high tech we have put in to this plane the initial batch can be 4++ generation. We will know when it is ready.

The KAAN, could not be ready in numbers before 2030. Worst case this may even be extended to 2035. That would leave Turkish airforce exposed and at a disadvantage. If we can make up the numbers with KAAN 4+ generation planes, that is great. If not, then we would need 2 to 3 squadrons of 4+ generation aircrafts to bridge the missing numbers.

Consequently, we should in the end have 100-150 Stealth KAANs and around 250 4+ generation fighter jets, be it KAAN or F16 Özgür/V70 or Typhoons.
It would be most advantageous to have the Typhoons with their ECRS MK2 Aesa radars as they would be the best in their class and give us a lot of insider knowledge about it.

Those calculations are too old and both KAAN and F35 would end up being way more expensive and difficult to operate than imagined.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Those calculations are too old and both KAAN and F35 would end up being way more expensive and difficult to operate than imagined.

These calculations are old if you think July 2019 is too old!
That is the time we were kicked out from F35 program.
Until we were kicked out, we were in the process of ordering F35 planes.
We had not changed our commitment quantities of 100 planes until that date. In fact we were contemplating for further quantities of F35Bs.
When we were kicked out the plane’s cost to consortium members had gone down to 78 million dollars from 89 million.
In 2019 Turkey’s GDP was 720billion dollars. Today it is estimated around 1.2 trillion dollars. So those numbers are more doable today .

 

[TR_123456]

Consequently, we should in the end have 100-150 Stealth KAANs and around 250 4+ generation fighter jets, be it KAAN or F16 Özgür/V70 or Typhoons.
It would be most advantageous to have the Typhoons with their ECRS MK2 Aesa radars as they would be the best in their class and give us a lot of insider knowledge about it.

Ok but by the time Germany agrees on any deal we will be a decade further before we get the first EF.
Would it still make sense to go for the EF?

 

[uçuyorum]

These calculations are old if you think July 2019 is too old!
That is the time we were kicked out from F35 program.
Until we were kicked out, we were in the process of ordering F35 planes.
We had not changed our commitment quantities of 100 planes until that date. In fact we were contemplating for further quantities of F35Bs.
When we were kicked out the plane’s cost to consortium members had gone down to 78 million dollars from 89 million.
In 2019 Turkey’s GDP was 720billion dollars. Today it is estimated around 1.2 trillion dollars. So those numbers are more doable today .

Think like this, fuel cost of 250 KAAN alone is 2 times that of 250 F16

 

[Saithan]

People if you are so impatient I could always make a solid deposit to Ziraat bankasi and that ought to fix the problem. Hopefully some among you knows what it means

 

[Yasar_TR]

Think like this, fuel cost of 250 KAAN alone is 2 times that of 250 F16

Let us think that KAAN of today is similar in engine power to F15EX.
F15EX in combat configuration at cruising altitude burns around 1800 Gallons of fuel.
An F16, in same configuration will use around 700gallons of fuel.
But if you start using afterburners and perform difficult manoeuvres, then you cold easily hit 2100gallons an hour for an F16 too.
Fuel cost is combat and specific case dependent. There are maintenance and parts costs that are important playing factors too.
F15EX’s hourly cost is estimated at around 29000 dollars. That is about the same as an F16 Falcon.

But KAAN should be costlier to maintain. Its RAM paint replenishment and when fitted with TF35K engines’ fuel consumption will be higher. Therefore hourly cost should place it in a higher position.

We have a saying in Turkish;
If you are to enter a Turkish Bath, you must be prepared to sweat.

These are state of the art planes we are building. They are not going to be cheap.
At the same time, we are not going to use them to bomb few terrorists in the East, day in day out. For that we have fleets of UCAVs like KE, Akinci Anka-3 etc.

 

[uçuyorum]

Let us think that KAAN of today is similar in engine power to F15EX.
F15EX in combat configuration at cruising altitude burns around 1800 Gallons of fuel.
An F16, in same configuration will use around 700gallons of fuel.
But if you start using afterburners and perform difficult manoeuvres, then you cold easily hit 2100gallons an hour for an F16 too.
Fuel cost is combat and specific case dependent. There are maintenance and parts costs that are important playing factors too.
F15EX’s hourly cost is estimated at around 29000 dollars. That is about the same as an F16 Falcon.

But KAAN should be costlier to maintain. Its RAM paint replenishment and when fitted with TF35K engines’ fuel consumption will be higher. Therefore hourly cost should place it in a higher position.

We have a saying in Turkish;
If you are to enter a Turkish Bath, you must be prepared to sweat.

These are state of the art planes we are building. They are not going to be cheap.
At the same time, we are not going to use them to bomb few terrorists in the East, day in day out. For that we have fleets of UCAVs like KE, Akinci Anka-3 etc.

Well yes but if you build 250 of them you still have to maintain them and hit certain flight hours for every pilot annually. About 200 is good and I think we were down do 150 hours few years back.

 

[Huelague]

The final version of Kaan was always introduced as a 5+ gen fighter jet. From the official side.

 

[what]

Even if most of the money stays within the economy, the money still has to come from somewhere.

Either the first versions of KAAN will be cheaper (don't expect it to be) as Yasar mentioned or my bet is we will go for a high-low set up with Hürjets in the mix. I dont see how we can afford it, but maybe I'm pessimistic.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ok but by the time Germany agrees on any deal we will be a decade further before we get the first EF.
Would it still make sense to go for the EF?

Yes! There ls that too.
If UK and our “diplomats” can get Germany to give the go ahead for the sale within this year, then it would be a viable purchase. Otherwise, if it is dragged out too long, as you have rightly pointed out, it is not going to make much of a difference.

 

[Iskander]

Some colleagues began to look for shortcomings and say that all these projects are moving slowly.
Some even criticize which
- then components or devices, etc. In general, I would say that the reaction is normal.
But, listen, is 7 years a long time to produce an aircraft? Not just an airplane, a 5th generation airplane.
I must say that this is a very short period of time even for the most famous aviation companies. And for Turkey, which has nothing like this, this is simply an incredibly short period of time. After the first flight of KAAN, many observers and even experts asked in surprise: - How is this so? Is there any aircraft manufacturing in Turkey?

We forget what level Türkiye was at 10-20-30 years ago. After all, almost nothing national was produced.
Today, 4 (!) jet aircraft are moving quite quickly in parallel.
Who would have thought of this before?
I'm still impressed by KAAN's first flight.
And Anka3? HurJet! Kizil Elma!

It must be said that even the most famous aircraft manufacturers have had very, very big failures throughout their history.
There were so many unsuccessful, abandoned projects! I can't count. How many cases have planes crashed on their first flight? There were even those who couldn't even take off...
Now let's look at the first takeoffs of all four Turkish aircraft...
This is incredible!
And each of these 4, in my opinion, is simply a masterpiece of art!

 

[UkroTurk]

Even if most of the money stays within the economy, the money still has to come from somewhere.

Either the first versions of KAAN will be cheaper (don't expect it to be) as Yasar mentioned or my bet is we will go for a high-low set up with Hürjets in the mix. I dont see how we can afford it, but maybe I'm pessimistic.

İt's called war economy that Putin carries out today. Due to war economy Putin wont agree to peacedeal.

İnstead of investing and supporting construction business you are creating new jobs. Moreover this investment will make your economy enable to export.

The more number you produce, you lower the costs so you are compatible.

Absolutely investing in expensive weapons is more profitable than in construction business.

We will export them and gain foreign currency which we are lack of.

 

[Huelague]

Even if most of the money stays within the economy, the money still has to come from somewhere.

Either the first versions of KAAN will be cheaper (don't expect it to be) as Yasar mentioned or my bet is we will go for a high-low set up with Hürjets in the mix. I dont see how we can afford it, but maybe I'm pessimistic.

Take from taxpayers, give it to defence industry.

 

[UkroTurk]

Take from taxpayers, give it to defence industry.

İt won't bring additional burden on tax payers. İf there weren't 400 Kaan , people would have to same amount and percentage of taxes.

Government just allocates funds in budget. For instance instead payment of health care and other costs of refugees, having 400 Kaan sounds Better.

Or 92 billion TL ( 3 billion USD) 2024 budget of diyanet 10yeaer x3billion: 30billion USD . Here is your new air force.

 

[Huelague]

İt won't bring additional burden on tax payers. İf there weren't 400 Kaan , people would have to same amount and percentage of taxes.

Never mentioned such thing

 

[Yasar_TR]

İt won't bring additional burden on tax payers. İf there weren't 400 Kaan , people would have to same amount and percentage of taxes.

Government just allocates funds in budget. For instance instead payment of health care and other costs of refugees, having 400 Kaan sounds Better.

Or 92 billion TL ( 3 billion USD) 2024 budget of diyanet 10yeaer x3billion: 30billion USD . Here is your new air force.

I am afraid you are missing a very important point. Let me explain again.

- If you buy a truck from abroad for military, that truck stays inert in a warehouse waiting to be used in case of war. But you have used foreign currency reserves to buy it.
- If you produce in house a truck for your military, then you have not used foreign currency reserves. But your truck is still sitting in a warehouse not contributing to anything.
- If you buy a truck from abroad for your haulage industry, then you are contributing to economy. Employing people, carrying goods etc , even if you used foreign currency reserves to buy it.
- If you produce the truck for your military or your haulage industry and also export it; then you have maximum contribution to your economy.

Your definition of “war-economy” is only applicable to some extent if you have endless natural resources like Russia, China and USA. Even then, these countries would not be utilising their resources to their full extent.

War is an expensive business. In the end it could deplete your natural resources that feeds it.

So as per both @what ’s and @Huelague ’s comments ; the money has to come from somewhere and that is from taxpayers and country’s natural resources that are ill used..

Having a strong military, however, has certain economic and diplomatic advantages that help the country. A few can be listed as:
It would be a deterrent for countries that may otherwise have ulterior motives towards you. It would help insure and to consolidate safe trade with overseas markets. It would help your voice as a country to be heard louder. It would make it easier for your defence industry products to be sold.

 

[UkroTurk]

- If you produce in house a truck for your military, then you have not used foreign currency reserves. But your truck is still sitting in a warehouse not contributing to anything.

You said well as always but
I don't agree with it. Your truck creates jobs in your country so before sitting in the warehouse, Made in Türkiye truck contributed to national economy.

Government distributed job opportunities to jobless citizens.

 

[Spitfire9]

How is the first frame to fly progressing with flight testing> Is it flying>