TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

IC3M@N FX

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It's not that simple: if both sides have stealth capabilities, stealth loses its original role as a "long-range advantage" and instead becomes a prerequisite for even surviving in modern air combat. This shifts the actual BVR window to a realistic engagement range of 30 to 60 km, because only in this range can sufficient track quality be established against VLO targets.

At this distance, the nominal range of a missile is hardly relevant. The only decisive factor is endgame energy. This requires BVRAAMs with a basic range of 100+ km, but optimised for high agility in the medium-range band: weapons with dual impulse or ramjet engines that reach Mach 4.5–4.8 or more and continue to provide active thrust in the terminal stage. Only such missiles create a sufficiently large no-escape zone to reliably achieve their effect in a stealth-versus-stealth scenario.

Long ranges of 150–200 km remain relevant against genuine stealth platforms only under extremely specific conditions – for example, with multi-static sensor technology, triangulation, network hand-off between multiple radar sources, or if a target accidentally flies in a very unfavourable aspect. Without this highly networked sensor technology, such a shot loses almost all practical relevance because the target is detected too late or too inaccurately. This means that classic "150+ km" BVR missiles, which were primarily designed to counter Gen-4/4+ jets, are virtually ineffective in the new scenario.

This means that a genuine post-stealth phase is now – or will very soon – emerge. Pure signature reduction is no longer sufficient. The following factors will be decisive:

sensory superiority (AESA, IRST, ESM, LPI data links)

kinetics and endgame energy of the aircraft and the missiles used, and agile platforms with strong energy management.

In this environment, the F-35, for example, will age faster because it is not designed to compete with an equal opponent that has more power, as other stealth platforms are already designed for greater agility and superior energy management. Rather, the F-35 is a BVR shooter mainly against Gen 4+ aircraft.

Stealth remains essential – but only in combination with agility, sensor fusion and high-energy weapons will true superiority emerge in the post-stealth era.
 

Huelague

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Never. Tying such an important future program to whims of Germany is like giving a loaded gun to a toddler and hoping it wouldn't be able to pull the trigger. If we were to join any 6th gen program, it would be GCAP and even then, I'd highly doubt it.
Never say never and remember the history…

First, Germany has understood the importance of an air superiority combat system. Germany is pushing more than any other country in EU for an armament. Whims will you not see their. We don’t need the project. Germany (most important EU defense project), need them.


In any case, 6th gen is not something we should be truly concerned about imo. I think with 5th gen we have come to the point that next iterations won't be leaps in technology like between 4th and 5th but rather refinements and small improvements. Hell, no one even has a proper definition yet other than everyone going for even flatter geometry to try to reduce to RCS and possibly higher power generation to give the planes better electronic counter measures.

Not concerned, but stay attached not to lose the thread again. Yes, we are working on a 6. Gen fighter jet already (T. Kotil), but there is a lot we can gain (ToT) by entrance the FCAS project. Which will that be, would be seen in the future .

Mastering the 5th gen, longer range AA missiles with seekers and drones to accompany Kaan should be our focus, especially since we have a far limited budget and staff resources than others like China or US or countries in these programs.
One does not exclude the other. We are working on more than one project.
About the budget, Germany has decided for a limitless Defence budget. So, the project is financially save.
 

TheInsider

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Tempest and FCAS are declared as a 6th Gen. Fighter jet. Do you have other informations?
Yes, I have. It doesn't matter what project owners declare; I have eyes and I can see clearly. Those fighters you mentioned don't have adaptive cycle engines; their geometry doesn't support wide-spectrum stealth. These two can't be added later on. Currently, only China and the US are developing a technological marvel called adaptive cycle engine, and only those countries have managed to demonstrate fighter-level maneuverability and stability without the use of a tail, which is very important for wide-spectrum stealth. If Turkiye one day develops a 6th gen, it will be derived from the experience TAI has been gaining from the Anka-3 project. FCAS is dead and Tempest will probably be a 5th gen with some 6th gen capabilities similar to how F-16 block 70 is a 4th gen with some 5th gen capabilities. BTW both China and the US will deploy their 6th gen in 2030s. Those 2 will be a full generation ahead of the rest.
 

Tabmachine

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Heres something interesting I found a while back:

By Wang Haifeng, former Chief Designer at Chengdu

Key Technologies for Co-design of High-Performance Fighter Jets and Engines​

https://hkxb.buaa.edu.cn/CN/10.7527/S1000-6893.2024.29978
(you can open the html version and use browser translate on the chinese)

Abstract:

The future operational environment imposes higher and more comprehensive requirements for the performance of fighters, calling for deeper integration between fighter airframe and engine and closer collaborative design during fighter research and development. Building on theories and practices for optimum airframe-engine integration in fighter design in the past decades, this paper proposes a collaborative airframe-engine design concept. Through an analysis of the combat requirements of Penetrating Counter Air (PCA) and other operational concepts, this paper then presents the essential capabilities of high performance fighters and looks into the requirements of future-oriented collaborative airframe-engine design. The key technologies concerning flight performance, stealth characteristics, flight control and aircraft energy are discussed, and the possible implementation approaches and suggestions for design and research are also provided.
 

Huelague

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Yes, I have. It doesn't matter what project owners declare; I have eyes and I can see clearly. Those fighters you mentioned don't have adaptive cycle engines; their geometry doesn't support wide-spectrum stealth. These two can't be added later on. Currently, only China and the US are developing a technological marvel called adaptive cycle engine, and only those countries have managed to demonstrate fighter-level maneuverability and stability without the use of a tail, which is very important for wide-spectrum stealth. If Turkiye one day develops a 6th gen, it will be derived from the experience TAI has been gaining from the Anka-3 project. FCAS is dead and Tempest will probably be a 5th gen with some 6th gen capabilities similar to how F-16 block 70 is a 4th gen with some 5th gen capabilities. BTW both China and the US will deploy their 6th gen in 2030s. Those 2 will be a full generation ahead of the rest.
About 6. Generation Fighter Jet Specifications:

What Defines 6th-Generation Fighter Aircraft?


About the engine.

 

Spitfire9

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I read somewhere that the airforce plans are for 150 aircraft total and that the 24 planes pers year are for the beginning stages and are supposed to increase but that depends on international customers.
150 Turkey
(48) Indonesia
With Typhoons in the TuAF, some of the 24 annual production of KAAN could be diverted to exports when the indigenous engine is installed. France even diverted all Rafale production to export for a time. I think Sweden is going to do the same to supply Colombia with Gripen E.
 

Yasar_TR

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What defines a generation difference of jet fighters is the very fact that if one plane contains significantly important technologies that can not be retrofitted on to a previous generation plane, than the latter is a generation ahead of the other.

As preliminary prerequisites, 6th generation planes should:

1. fly at much higher service altitudes than previous generation planes.
2. contain technologies that can easily power directed energy weapons.
3. due to 1st point should employ adaptive cycle engines or have technologies that will serve to that effect..

Tempest conforms to all the above.
RR , a company that was developing Variable Cycle engines in late 70‘s for the Concorde and now offering it to India for their AMCA engine, could have easily gone through the VCE route. But chose not to. Instead went for heavy usage of electrification to make up for the VCE. The use of a more electric architecture is intended to replace the need for a traditional variable cycle engine by providing flexibility through software and electrical power management.

For a fact Tempest design picture has changed no less than three times so far. Same goes for the F47. Until both planes start to appear physically, we can only use conjecture.

A plane without vertical stabilisers is very difficult to manoeuvre. That is a fact. If a dogfighting capable jet is expected out of a F47, then it will become a compromise. Yes vertical stabilisers impart problems with stealth. But you can’t have the best of both worlds. We still don’t know enough about the Tempest shape.

In fact if studied, one can see that both Tempest and F47 have very different end use targets.
Key differences include; F47 with a longer range and higher speed at higher altitudes. Yet Tempest is to have a big payload capacity and that it will outperform all current 5th generation planes in all areas. One major advantage that F47 have is that it is at least 4 years ahead of Tempest program.

The crunch lies in this advantage of F47. Japan could easily ditch the program because of it and US pressure, and go with purchasing F47. That would put the spanner in the works for Tempest.
 

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