India Navy Indian Conventional Submarine Programs (SSK)

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
816
Reactions
38 1,797
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
The 2 x SDVs that the sub can carry on the sides as depicted here:

sov4001.jpg


...and previously here (older iteration):

Picture1.jpg


...appear to be L&T's own concept shown few years ago:

85d68-lt_sdv.jpg


...these appear to be roughly the same overall size as the US Navy's Mk.8 SDV:

US-Navy-SEAL-Delivery-Vehicle-SDV-Mk-8-Mod-0_cutaway.jpg
 
F

FalconSlayersDFI

Guest
India issues tender for Rs 50,000 crore project to build six submarines
This would provide a major boost to the indigenous design and construction capability of submarines in India, in addition to bringing in the latest submarine design and technologies as part of the pro
Published: 20th July 2021 07:34 PM | Last Updated: 20th July 2021 07:34 PM | A+A A-
Submarine

For representational purposes (Photo | AP)
By Mayank Singh
Express News Service

NEW DELHI: In a step seen as game-changing for indigenous defence manufacturing, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on Monday issued a tender expected to be worth around Rs 50,000 crores for building six conventional submarines under Project-75 India.

Ministry of Defence in its statement said, "The request for proposal (RFP) was issued to shortlisted Strategic Partners (SPs) or Indian Applicant Companies for the project viz, M/s Mazagaon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) and M/s Larsen & Tubro (L&T)." The project cost is over Rs 40,000 crore.

With the RFP issued begins the process of procurement and this is expected to take 12 weeks for the Strategic Partners to select the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and reply back to the MoD.

The Project-75(I) envisages indigenous construction of six modern conventional submarines (including associated shore support, Engineering Support Package, training and spares package) with contemporary equipment, weapons & sensors including Fuel-Cell based AIP (Air Independent Propulsion Plant), advanced torpedoes, modern missiles and state of the art countermeasure systems.

This would provide a major boost to the indigenous design and construction capability of submarines in India, in addition to bringing in the latest submarine design and technologies as part of the project.

ALSO READ | MH-60R helicopters and P8 Poseidon to enhance interoperability between Indian, US navies: Pentagon

Indian Navy’s submarine arm has been plagued with obsolescence and is currently operating 12 vintage submarines. Although it has indicted 3 conventional screened class submarines the programme is running late. India has one indigenously manufactured INS Arihant, a nuclear-powered attack submarine.

As per responses to the Expression of Interest (EoI) received by the government in January 2020 shortlisting of two potential Strategic Partners (SPs), as mentioned above, and five Foreign OEMs was undertaken.

The shortlisted SPs to whom the RFP has been issued would be collaborating with any of the shortlisted five Foreign OEMs viz, Naval Group (France), TKMS (Germany), Rosoboronexport (Russia), Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (South Korea) and Navantia-Spain.

These five foreign firms will be the technology partner and will enable SP for the construction of submarines, achieving high levels of indigenization, and ToT for various technologies.

As per the MoD, "These OEMs would enable setting up of dedicated manufacturing lines for these submarines in India by providing ToT for submarine design and other technologies and make India the global hub for submarine design and production."

As per the MoD, in order to achieve the above the RFP has key features like mandatory level of indigenous manufacture of platforms, ToT for design/ manufacture/ maintenance of submarines and a few critical equipment and systems, setting up of an eco-system in India for such indigenisation and incentivisation for other key technologies, etc.

As per the plans, the Indian Navy should be operating 18 conventional submarines, 6 nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSNs) and 4 nuclear powered and armed with Ballistic Missile submarines (SSBNs).

 

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
816
Reactions
38 1,797
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Use this thread to post all news, dicussions & images of all diesel-powered submarines of the Indian Navy (nuclear-powered ones have their own thread).

Starting with some good informative pics from my collection...

HI Sutton's rendition of the Scorpene-class, this model depicted with the DRDO-developed MAREEM Fuel Cell AIP module inserted (something the Indian Scorpenes will undergo during their first mid-life refit program toward the end of this decade):

Kalvari-Class-Submarine-Cutaway (1).jpg


EwCNilRVIAM7h8N.jpg

A nice comparative infographic by the same guy, showing the various differences between the Scorpenes operated by India, Malaysia, Chile & Brazil:

Fr-Scorpene-Class-Recognition (1).jpg


^^ The Malaysian one is the most 'standard' version, with no unique customer-specific changes.

The INS Karanj, the 3rd of the 6-boat Indian Scorpene (Kalvari-class) order:

E8ORNtoUUAALWrZ.jpg

All 6 boats are built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL) shipyard near Mumbai, western India. In the background is a Project-15B DDG under construction:

Emm5a1-WMAAOP52.jpg

...with a high degree of localization:

C-vIQliWsAENoIC.jpg:large


+++​

Okay, let's move over to the Kilo-class SSKs...here's a rare pic of a couple of Novator 3M-14E "Klub-S" anti-ship/land-attack cruise missiles being loaded into the torpedo tubes of an Indian Kilo, known in the IN as Sindhughosh-class:

Klub-_S_ASCMs_being_loaded_Indian_Navy_Kilo-class.jpg

And a HAL Dhruv hovering over one of the Type-209/1500 SSKs (known as Shishumar-class):

E0684OYVcAEIReS.jpg

The Type 209s were upgraded with the ability to launch RGM-84 Harpoon-II anti-ship missiles. The Scorpenes on the other hand are equipped with SM-39 Exocet ASCMs. All of these are subsonic (or mostly subsonic) missiles...a smaller version of the supersonic Ramjet-powered BrahMos, called BrahMos-NG, is under development. It's intended applications include air & submarine-launch. The NG was previously known as BrahMos-M - M for Mini:

D0yBX2GW0AEHAi8.jpg

@Nilgiri @Gautam @Zapper @Cabatli_53
 
Last edited:

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,303
Reactions
96 18,874
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Merged with earlier (SSK) thread, pinned and standardised the name with the SSBN/SSN one.
 

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
816
Reactions
38 1,797
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Merged with earlier (SSK) thread, pinned and standardised the name with the SSBN/SSN one.

I looked for a SSK thread but couldn't find among the pinned, so assumed there wasn't one. It's pretty confusing unless pinned :p
 

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
816
Reactions
38 1,797
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
The 4 offerings for India's Project-75I submarine competition:

Indian-Navy-Submarine-Options-P75I-updated.jpg


Note that the French "Barracuda" offer shown is a modified version of the SMX 3.0 concept shown at last year's DEFEXPO in Delhi. Notice where the hydroplanes are (on sail as opposed to bow as on Australian Shortfin offer).


The SMX 3.0 is sort of a "Improved Scorpene" - displacing around 3,000-3,500 tons with FC2G Fuel Cell AIP and incorporating many design elements taken from the Barracuda program, like the X-form tail rudders, new larger flank array sonars & redesigned sail. I believe Mr. Sutton has taken the renewed commitment given by France to support India's "Strategic Autonomy, including its industrial & technological base*" into account in incorporating a Pump-jet propulsor on the design.

EQGMm_DU4AUPtuX.jpg


Considering it's likely to have a degree of commonality with the existing Kalvari-class (Scorpene) SSKs that are already being built in India, plus the already built-up supply chain of Naval Group-certified component manufacturers & offset partners present in the country (who supplied for the Scorpene program) would make the French offer the most lucrative.

15fdf1c5815c93586e7e901241ed4e76.jpg


The one major inconsistency in the article I've observed is the insistence on the submarine's capability to carry VLS modules. While this rumour has been present for a long time, there's actually no official statement of a VLS requirement for the P-75I submarine offers. In fact the South Koreans have stated that the version of DSME-3000/KSS-III offered for the P-75I will not have any VLS module - that's proof that VLS was never a requirement:


* :

 

crixus

Contributor
Messages
1,021
Reactions
1,160
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India

The 4 Submarines Competing For The Indian Navy’s P-75I Program​

The Indian Navy's P-75I submarines will be larger and much more potent than the Kalvari Class now entering service. They will be the bedrock of India's submarine fleet at a time when the strategic focus is leaning towards China as well as the traditional adversary, Pakistan. There are 4 contenders.​

H I Sutton 14 Oct 2021
There are four contenders for the Indian navy’s next-generation P75I submarine. They are currently submitting design proposals to the Indian Government. Whatever the outcome the boats are expected to all be built in India. So the deal will factor in political and industrial considerations as well as naval requirements.

The four contenders are the Barracuda from France, the S-80-Plus from Spain, DSME-3000 from South Korea and Amur design from Russia. Germany had also been a contender but recently said that they dropped out.

All of the contenders have their merits and it is likely to be a tough choice for the Indian Navy. Below we outline the different designs.

The Indian Navy’s detailed requirements have not been shared. Based on reports and analysis of their current capabilities, investments and threat focuses, two things seem sure. The first is that P75I will have AIP (air independent power). The second is that they would prefer a VLS to launch Brahmos anti-ship missiles. Taken together, the P75I will have to be much larger than previous Indian navy conventional submarines.

Both the AIP and VLS will present challenges and difficult decisions. Like all major submarine projects, trade-offs will have to get made. India has developed its own fuel cell AIP which it is planning to fit to the current French-designed Kalvari Class (Scorpene type). This is a logical choice for the P75I also, particularly from the perspective of indigenous industry. However the Indian Navy is likely to be very interested in the AIP already available with the designs. Incorporating the local AIP would increase development risks, and close off opportunities to access better AIP systems.

The VLS will be a challenge because all the contenders are relatively small boats. It is unclear how dependent the contract will be on a VLS, or whether alternative missile options will be considered.

1. Barracuda Class Submarine​

France’s Naval Group is believed to be offering a diesel-electric version of their Barracuda nuclear submarine. The nuclear version is already in service with the French Navy (Marine Nationale) as the Suffren Class. Being from the same lineage as the Kalvari Class currently being built in India, it can be seen as a strong contender.

The diesel-electric version could have some design features from the SMX-3.0 design. This was exhibited at DEFEXPO in India in 2020. This may include the sail-mounted hydroplanes (as opposed to hull mounted on Suffren) and AIP. The French AIP system uses fuel-cells with a diesel reformer to eliminate the need for onboard hydrogen storage. It has been shore tested for years.

Perhaps the largest design advantage of the Barracuda is simply its size. The hull diameter of around 8.5 meters is the largest of the competitors. This should make it comparatively less challenging to fit a VLS, even with the massive Brahmos missile. The related SMX Ocean concept already has a VLS, and the baseline Barracuda class can anyway launch MdCN land-attack cruise missiles.

Other noteworthy features of the French design are likely to include X-form rudders and a pump-jet. This latter feature may also be of interest in India’s nuclear submarine projects.

We can speculate that French nuclear submarine technologies and/or access to extra-large uncrewed underwater vehicle (XLUUV) technologies, may also be a factor. Naval Group recently revealed that they have had an XLUUV demonstrator in the water since last year.

2. DSME-3000, South Korea’s Missile Submarine​

South Korea has recently spread its wings and entered the submarine export game, selling boats to Indonesia. They are understood to be proposing an export version of their home-grown KSS-III design. This is a relatively large non-nuclear boat, likely second only to the Barracuda.

The type comes with German based fuel-cell AIP. The layout, with a hull section essentially dedicated to AIP, suggests that it would not be too challenging to swap it for the Indian alternative.

And South Korea is ahead of most countries in the race to fit lithium-base battery technology to submarines. This promises to extend the endurance of submarines when running on batterie. Naturally this may be attractive to the Indian Navy, even potentially diminishing the importance of AIP.

Its differentiating feature is that it already comes with a six or ten round VLS. In South Korean service this is expected to carry the Hyunmoo 4-4 missile, which is roughly equivalent to India’s K-15 Sagarika but without a nuclear option. While exact dimensions and weights are not available, this at least implies that it could accommodate the similarly sized Brahmos.

Carrying a VLS in such a small submarine likely needs some trade-offs, like fewer weapons slots in the regular torpedo room. But overall the South Korean design seems balanced and highly capable.

3. Spain’s New Entrant: S-80 Plus​

Another new country to submarine exports, Spain’s Navantia is offering a variant of their latest S-80 plus design. This is a larger boat than the Scorpene design (per India’s Kalvari Class), but smaller than the South Korean or French options.

The AIP is a fuel-cell system with bio-ethanol reformer. So like the French system there is no need for hydrogen storage. Currently Spain’s S-80 Plus boats are not running with AIP, but the system is being tested and should go to sea in the next few years.

It is unclear whether Navantia is proposing a VLS. The design was always intended to be compatible with land-attack cruise missiles shot from the torpedo tubes.

4. The Russian Option: Amur​

Essentially the export versions of the Lada Class, the Amur family of submarines has been offered for several years. Russia already has strong ties with the Indian Navy and some related Kilo Class submarines are still in their service. The Amur shares some lineage to the Kilo but features a single-hull configuration.

Despite having the smallest hull diameter of the contenders (1.5 meters less than the Barracuda), design models have frequently shown a VLS. This seems to have been for smaller Kalibr sized weapons rather than the Brahmos however.

Another challenge for the Amur designs could be AIP. Russia has yet to develop an AIP system for its Lada Class. Possibly the Indian AIP system is key to the proposal.

Like France, Russia may be seen as having a ‘home advantage’ because of the strong historic relationship. There have been reports that Russia views this as an opportunity to joint-develop the next generation of non-nuclear submarine. How this sits with other reports of the same thing with China remains unclear

 

crixus

Contributor
Messages
1,021
Reactions
1,160
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
seems like French are offering the Diesel version of Barracuda class
 

crixus

Contributor
Messages
1,021
Reactions
1,160
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Why not indigenous,you have built bigger subs?
Cant design a smaller one?

I think this is the last time we are going for foreign submarines , most probably the TOT will be shared with a private ship builder and in future they will design and develop the inhouse submarines .

Earlier TOTs were with govt ship builders and they deliverd the substandard product and ruined all TOT . This is the first time a private ship builder is engaged and thanks to China for waking and shaking the policy makers.
 
Last edited:

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,303
Reactions
96 18,874
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Gessler posted in larger SSK thread too. I will archive this later there as usual too.

Why not indigenous,you have built bigger subs?
Cant design a smaller one?

To summarise, large portion of our defence "establishment" is not too bright when it comes to strategy (esp industrial strategy).

Though the naval domain they are more up to scruff overall than the AF and army respectively.

But what was lacking in this case anyway was how ball was let slip on HDW 209 program....given it was supposed to be good established ToT from Germany to take forward.

It is sobering to compare this with how South Korea ran their program with Germany in same period of time (even accounting for SK vastly more developed marine industry)....and how they have developed what they have now....very specific to their needs (SLBM capable SSK).

The switch from Germany to France here was a very clumsy waste of resource and time by our establishment....and nearly fully explains most of the answer to your question.

Overall though it is minor quibble (given India Navy has done well in the surface ship dept all things considered) compared to the shocking stupidity over long period of time regarding the other two branches.

The biggest AF ones were (IMO) to final impact cost:

a) Not figuring out a deal quickly in the 60s with bristol siddeley for a powerful version of the orpheus.....(esp before it got absorbed into RR and the cold war situation turned against India w.r.t West)

b) Not acquiring the Mirage 2000 production line when the French offered it quite reasonably after their production run finished.


The biggest Army ones were (IMO) similarly:

a) OFB small arms related sheer incompetence of an astounding degree given what was inherited from the British here w.r.t ishapore especially. All which will take too long to explain in detail as to the why.

b) Artillery ecosystem basis w.r.t what was acquired from Bofors specifically again for this purpose. The missed years by corruption scandal on top.

The are many more I could add to both....but these are the big 2 for each.

Navy overall has done quite well compared to them....no real biggies of this scale I can think of.

Haven't seen my friend @Anmdt for a while, hope he gives us his 2 cents when he is back if he would like.
 

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
816
Reactions
38 1,797
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
The L&T SOV400 special operations midget sub has been shown again - at the EDEX 2021 expo in Egypt:

FFxIOHyVIAQ6hcJ.jpg
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom