TR Air Defence Programs

Agha Sher

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= Care to explain this seeming discrepancy? To me Okumus gives here the answer as to why Turkish missiles lack in range compared to their more advanced counterparts. Something which I already had in mind but now being validated by a true insider.

E.g. Turkey lacks higher energetic solid-fuel mixtures that prevents a CAMM/Tamir sized missile to be produced that outranges and is 50% lighter than the current Hisar-A+/O+.


I assume developing higher energy density mixtures will take a lot of time. Could one of Turkey's allies provide the technology? (Ukraine, S. Korea etc.)
 

Yasar_TR

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I assume developing higher energy density mixtures will take a lot of time. Could one of Turkey's allies provide the technology? (Ukraine, S. Korea etc.)

A new factory that will develop and produce rocket fuel and explosive materials, was opened last August with a view to overcome the deficiency we have in this area.
 
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adenl

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A new factory that will develop and produce rocket fuel and explosive materials, was opened last August with a view to overcome the deficiency we have in this area.
Production doesn't mean development. Okumus' interview was conducted 9 months after the opening of Roketsans facility.
 

TheInsider

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= Care to explain this seeming discrepancy? To me Okumus gives here the answer as to why Turkish missiles lack in range compared to their more advanced counterparts. Something which I already had in mind but now being validated by a true insider.

E.g. Turkey lacks higher energetic solid-fuel mixtures that prevents a CAMM/Tamir sized missile to be produced that outranges and is 50% lighter than the current Hisar-A+/O+.

What Okumuş said is about the "serial production" of energetic materials. Investments are made and measures are taken to cover the serial production side of the things. Hisar missiles use one of the best available solid rocket fuel formulas available worldwide. The time between firing and interception is considerably faster than the comparable missiles which leave pilots with less time to react compared to similar missiles.
 
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adenl

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What Okumuş said is about the "serial production" of energetic materials. Investments are made and measures are taken to cover the serial production side of the things. Hisar missiles use one of the best available solid rocket fuel formulas available worldwide. The time between firing and interception is considerably faster than the comparable missiles which leave pilots with less time to react compared to similar missiles.
That is not what I get from google translate. Would you mind to provide a correct translation then?
 

TheInsider

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In terms of solid-fueled rocket engines, several of our institutions have the design capability but there is an energetic chemical materials problem. He doesn't specifically refer to the scientific ability of production.

Earlier Hisar models (Hisar-A, Hisar-O) were using solid fuels which have yellow, orange exhaust flames. Hisar-A+ and Hisar-O+ use a new fuel with blue flames. Blue flame means more energetic materials and more efficient combustion. There are mass production problems with this. You can look at the Roketsan magazine issues for deeper research.


Hisarr-1-1024x370-1.jpg
 

Yasar_TR

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Production doesn't mean development. Okumus' interview was conducted 9 months after the opening of Roketsans facility.
The two factory units were opened in August 2020 by Roketsan, that would produce as well as develop newer and more reactive energetic chemicals, both for fuel and for explosives. To achieve the correct and required energetic chemicals the industry is aspiring to, may take more than 9 months. This is an upwards climb with a learning curve.
In April of 2021, MKEK has set up a new production unit that will develop and produce energetic chemicals for explosives As well.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Turkish Polimer cutting edge reactive composite solid fuel technologies


64F21B15-1CB2-4FAB-9283-D5C988B4135D.jpeg



  • ADN (Ammonium dinitramide) = Development completed successfully. (smokeless, insensitive composite rocket fuel which provides %10 more thrust compared to other oxidizers.)
  • AZP (Azido Polymer ) = Development completed successfully. (new generation, less smoky/smokeless, insensitive and a high energy polimer binder is capable of providing an increase in ballistic performance.)
  • AO3105 (Antioksidan) = Development completed succesfully. (Used in flight engine composite solid rocket fuel and primer formulation of OMTAS missile)
  • IPDI (Isophorone diisocyanate) = Development completed successfully. (Used as a curative in flight engine fuel and primer formulation of OMTAS missile)
  • TDI (Toluene diisocyanate) = Development completed successfully. ( Toxic and highly reactive organic compound)
  • EKZO (Synthetic Jet Fuel) = (1,5t capacity/year production, It is vital for air breathing cruise missiles)
  • HNIW(HexaNitroHexaAzaIsoWurtzitane) = Development completed successfully. (That is very dangerous compound to synthesis and one of the most powerful explosives known today, more powerfull than RDX and HMX)
 
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adenl

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He doesn't specifically refer to the scientific ability of production.
I don't know what this sentence means.

Earlier Hisar models (Hisar-A, Hisar-O) were using solid fuels which have yellow, orange exhaust flames. Hisar-A+ and Hisar-O+ use a new fuel with blue flames.
Not according to this:

You can look at the Roketsan magazine issues for deeper research.
Could you provide a link please?
 

TheInsider

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From 2014. Page 20. It is in Turkish.

Page 30. Roketsan-Raytheon contract in the scope of the ESSM project.

There are more I cant dig everything.

I don't know what this sentence means.
It means he didn't say we have no tech to produce energetic chemical materials. He is most probably talking about difficulties about scaling production to the mass production levels.

Energetic chemical material synthesis in a lab for the purpose of prototype production differs very much from the serial production of the mentioned product.
 
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adenl

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Siper missile will have dual seeker (IIR and RF seeker). All Turkish air defense missiles have two-way datalink capability.
Is this two way datalink equivalent to TVM guidance and SAGG (Seeker Aided Ground Guidance)? Is the Siper able to switch between the various guidance methods in the face of EM and IR counter measures? Do you know if Siper will have HoJ capability?
 
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TheInsider

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Siper has home on jamming but home on jamming ability is countered successfully by modern DRFM Jammers because the missile RF seeker or radar thinks it's getting the return of its own emitted signal. This is why datalink is important. This way you can compare datas and understand the there is jamming in play and activate the home on jamming ability.

Basic IR countermeasures(flares) are nearly useless against IIR seekers of modern missiles.

Two-way datalink means missile will also send data to the ground station(or other third party assets) so the ground station can calculate a better solution of the hit point. It also means the missile is more resistant to jamming as datalinks are harder to jam compared to RF seekers.RF seeker+ Home on jamming+IIR seeker+two way datalink is probably safest and one of the most accurate ways to guide a missile in a heavy electronic warfare environment.

Siper guidance works that way.

1)Search radar finds the target (s band)
2) Multi-functional fire control radar(x band) locks on it, start tracking both the target and the missile( when it is fired), and calculates impact coordinates.
3)Missile is fired to the impact coordinates that are calculated by the ground station with initial data from the fire control radar.
4)Missile RF seeker is in passive(listening) mode. It collects returning signals of the fire control radar from the target and sends data back to the ground station
5) Ground station continuously calculates guidance commands using the data it gets from the missile and from the fire control radar which tracks both the missile and the target then sends them to the missile.
6) Missile may turn on its RF seeker when it is in range of the target from this point on missile can perform everything on its own without the need for datalink. But most of the time datalink connection is preserved as it provides resistance against jammers. Optionally RF seeker might stay in passive mode since the missile also has an IIR seeker.
7)IIR seeker starts searching the sky when the target comes in the range making use of the coordinate data coming from either the ground station or from the missiles RF seeker. When it sees the target's heat signature it locks on to it.

When a radar locks on to a fighter. A fighter will probably get a radar warning depending on how good its radar warning system is and how good the enemy radar is.

When a missile seeker locks on to a target it is called a bullseye. If an active RF seeker locks on to a fighter it will get a missile warning via a radar warning system. At this point, the pilot will try to use jammers if he has any, will start evasive maneuvers, and starts firing chaff rounds when the missile gets even closer. If it is an IIR seeker radar warning system won't work. A missile warning system is needed. Missile warning system looks for the UV and IR radiation emitted by the exhaust of the missile. At this point, the pilot has only seconds to react. The pilot will immediately start evasive maneuvers and fire flare rounds. RF seeker has the advantage of being bullseye at longer ranges while IIR seeker has the advantage against electronic jamming, it is very strong against IR countermeasures like flares and since it is passive it is sneaky and offers less time to pilot to react.
 

Philip the Arab

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@TheInsider
Is DIRCM effective against modern seekers like Hisar, or others? I find that a downside in many terminal IR missiles if it is.

Is there anyway to counter it?
 
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TheInsider

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Jammers​

Early seeker systems determined the angle to the target through timing of the reception of the signal. This makes them susceptible to jamming by releasing false signals that are so powerful that they are seen even when the seeker reticle is covering the sensor. Early jammers like the AN/ALQ-144 used a heated block of silicon carbide as an IR source, and surround it with a spinning set of lenses that send the image as a series of spots sweeping around the sky. Modern versions more typically use an infrared laser shining on a rapidly rotating mirror. As the beam paints the seeker it causes a flash of light to appear out of sequence, disrupting the timing pattern used to calculate angle. When successful, IR jammers cause the missile to fly about randomly.

IR jammers are far less successful against modern imaging seekers, because they do not rely on timing for their measurements. In these cases, the jammer may be detrimental, as it provides additional signal at the same location as the target. Some modern systems now locate their jammers on towed countermeasures pods, relying on the missile homing on the strong signal, but modern image processing systems can make this ineffective and may require the pod to look as much as possible like the original aircraft, further complicating the design.[47]

A more modern laser-based technique removes the scanning and instead uses some other form of detection to identify the missile and aim the laser directly at it. This blinds the seeker continually, and is useful against even modern imaging seekers. These directional infrared countermeasures (DIRCMs) are very effective, they are also very expensive and generally only suitable for aircraft that are not maneuvering, like cargo aircraft and helicopters. Their implementation is further complicated by placing filters in front of the imager to remove any off-frequency signals, requiring the laser to tune itself to the frequency of the seeker or sweep through a range. Some work has even been put into systems with enough power to optically damage the nose cone or filters within the missile, but this remains beyond current capabilities.
Here is a quote that will answer your question.
As you can see it is more effective than flares but it has its own drawbacks.
 

Philip the Arab

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Turkey can offer a good solution to some nations of the Middle East.

IMO Qatar may purchase Hisar series in multiple variants in the future.
 

mulj

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Turkey can offer a good solution to some nations of the Middle East.

IMO Qatar may purchase Hisar series in multiple variants in the future.
Not just them, it will be atractive to any country who wish to have layered air defence without political dependance and strong influence by seller, you see how usa amd russia (less then usa) attach so many strings to their systems, once ready and completed countries will stand in line for purchasing if it remains in folds of strict good faith bussiness relations. Altough i am not sure if the Turkey will be willing to expose right away it on market before developing more advanced options for them self and manage to deal with exposures of system which is inevitable once you sell it to third party.
 
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adenl

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Home on jamming+IIR seeker+two way datalink is probably safest and one of the most accurate ways to guide a missile in a heavy electronic warfare environment.
This is what I was looking for. Siper is going to be virtually unjammable with 7 different ways of detection and guidance needed to be jammed by the enemy to render it useless (S-band radar, X-band radar, active K(a/u)-band missile seeker, IIR guidance, uplink, downlink and HoJ).
An almost impossible job by any air platform.

Now for the last questions, is Turkey pursuing a mobile VHF radar to provide upper level detection, above the EIRS for VLO targets, like Nebo/YJ-27/Matla'ul-fajr? Or is Turkey going to pursue a different way for VLO detection?

Are there any talks about an OTH radar down the road?
 
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Era_shield

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That is not what I get from google translate. Would you mind to provide a correct translation then?
It says we have a partial dependence on foreign sources for those high energetic materials. That implies some of it can be made domestically. So what TheInsider is saying makes sense - for serial production, domestic production capacity isn't enough and we have to rely on foreign sources to make up the difference. But factories are being opened to close this gap. This is my interpretation of that paragraph anyway.
 

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