TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

Ryder

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What gives us or small Hungary, the power to veto Sweden‘s entry to NATO ?
If it is written in the treaty, not a lot anybody can do!

You have a point there but it still sucks how much power Germany gets.

Germany will just sabotage Turkiye any chance they get.

President Erdogan is just a bullshit excuse for them.
 

Spitfire9

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This touches on the prospects of F-16 for Turkiye...

As I have written elsewhere, I think it very unlikely that Turkiye will be allowed more F-16. Creating problems for NATO to include Sweden makes more F-16 even more unlikely.

Turkiye says it is now interested in buying Eurofighter. It hopes NATO members UK, Italy and Spain will push NATO member Germany to accept Turkiye as a customer yet appears to be trying hard to disaffect the countries whose help it wants. It looks like Turkiye is trying hard to rule itself out as far as F-16 and Typhoon are concerned... and, so far, is succeeding.
 

boredaf

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This touches on the prospects of F-16 for Turkiye...


As I have written elsewhere, I think it very unlikely that Turkiye will be allowed more F-16. Creating problems for NATO to include Sweden makes more F-16 even more unlikely.

Turkiye says it is now interested in buying Eurofighter. It hopes NATO members UK, Italy and Spain will push NATO member Germany to accept Turkiye as a customer yet appears to be trying hard to disaffect the countries whose help it wants. It looks like Turkiye is trying hard to rule itself out as far as F-16 and Typhoon are concerned... and, so far, is succeeding.
Or, those countries that are trying to blackmail Turkey into getting what they want are failing. Why is it on us that our supposed allies are fucking us over while selling weapons left and right and to countries that have done incomparably worse than us? The disrespect they, and you in this comment, show to Turkey is appalling. We are not some small country that doesn't really have any impact on NATO. Fuck Sweden, they shouldn't get anywhere near NATO until *after* we get our planes.
 

Heartbang

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Or, those countries that are trying to blackmail Turkey into getting what they want are failing. Why is it on us that our supposed allies are fucking us over while selling weapons left and right and to countries that have done incomparably worse than us? The disrespect they, and you in this comment, show to Turkey is appalling. We are not some small country that doesn't really have any impact on NATO. Fuck Sweden, they shouldn't get anywhere near NATO until *after* we get our planes.
Well said. If it was up to me, I'd keep them out forever.
They haven't showed a single iota of progress on the accords they pledged to uphold, and they're trying to weasel their way out of that using stupid populist ways like letting citizens make a show out of hate crimes.

Fatherless behavior manifest as a country.
 

Spitfire9

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Or, those countries that are trying to blackmail Turkey into getting what they want are failing. Why is it on us that our supposed allies are fucking us over while selling weapons left and right and to countries that have done incomparably worse than us? The disrespect they, and you in this comment, show to Turkey is appalling. We are not some small country that doesn't really have any impact on NATO. Fuck Sweden, they shouldn't get anywhere near NATO until *after* we get our planes.
Have it your way. Let's see how this pans out.

Yes, Turkiye is 'not some small country that doesn't really have any impact on NATO.' It clearly does. It's a member which has been creating problems for NATO. Can you explain why NATO members should help Turkiye out because it has a problem with the US supplying fighters?
 

boredaf

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Have it your way. Let's see how this pans out.

Yes, Turkiye is 'not some small country that doesn't really have any impact on NATO.' It clearly does. It's a member which has been creating problems for NATO. Can you explain why NATO members should help Turkiye out because it has a problem with the US supplying fighters?
What problems are those exactly? Not letting itself get blackmailed by our "allies" that tie two unrelated subjects together? Turkey has been a great ally to NATO for decades mate, without us NATO does not have a eastern flank. Even Ukraine war would've gone very differently if Turkey hadn't been arming them since 2014. Sweden, on the other hand, is absolutely inconsequential after Finland.

Kindly piss off with that holier than thou attitude, NATO members have been selling weapons and dealing with genocidal regimes all of its life, with us you lot are just trying to punch down and force us to comply. If NATO members were truly allies that they claim to be, they would've supported one of their oldest members instead of picking sides and trying to fuck us over.
 

Spitfire9

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What problems are those exactly? Not letting itself get blackmailed by our "allies" that tie two unrelated subjects together? Turkey has been a great ally to NATO for decades mate, without us NATO does not have a eastern flank. Even Ukraine war would've gone very differently if Turkey hadn't been arming them since 2014. Sweden, on the other hand, is absolutely inconsequential after Finland.

Kindly piss off with that holier than thou attitude, NATO members have been selling weapons and dealing with genocidal regimes all of its life, with us you lot are just trying to punch down and force us to comply. If NATO members were truly allies that they claim to be, they would've supported one of their oldest members instead of picking sides and trying to fuck us over.
Would you please try to rise above insult. And please read what I wrote again.

Spitfire9 said:
Have it your way. Let's see how this pans out.

Yes, Turkiye is 'not some small country that doesn't really have any impact on NATO.' It clearly does. It's a member which has been creating problems for NATO. Can you explain why NATO members should help Turkiye out because it has a problem with the US supplying fighters?
Holier than thou? I said Turkiye has been creating problems for NATO. I asked why NATO members should help Turkiye out now that it has problems with the US.

PS I do not think that UK, Italy and Spain can change either Germany's position on Typhoon or America's position on F-16.
 
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godel44

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Would you please try to rise above insult. And please read what I wrote again.


Holier than thou? I said Turkiye has been creating problems for NATO. I asked why NATO members should help Turkiye out now that it has problems with the US.

PS I do not think that UK, Italy and Spain can change either Germany's position on Typhoon or America's position on F-16.
Turkey’s objection to Sweden is due to the latter’s support of the PKK terrorist organization. It is absolutely outrageous that NATO allies or candidates support terrorism. Turkey is behaving in a surprisingly tempered way considering the abject moral failure of the opposing parties.

The request for military aircraft is about a commercial transaction, not a request for help. Simply the act of tying it to other matters shows an inclination to blackmail. At the end of the day, there is only a decade remaining where this attempted blackmail will be remotely relevant for Turkey and their pet terror organization will not benefit in either case.
 

Spitfire9

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Turkey’s objection to Sweden is due to the latter’s support of the PKK terrorist organization. It is absolutely outrageous that NATO allies or candidates support terrorism. Turkey is behaving in a surprisingly tempered way considering the abject moral failure of the opposing parties.

The request for military aircraft is about a commercial transaction, not a request for help. Simply the act of tying it to other matters shows an inclination to blackmail. At the end of the day, there is only a decade remaining where this attempted blackmail will be remotely relevant for Turkey and their pet terror organization will not benefit in either case.
I don't want to get tied up with what organisations are terrorist organisations except to say that if PKK kill civilians in pursuit of political objectives and Hamas kill civilians in pursuit of political objectives they are both just that in my view.

PKK is viewed as a terrorist organisation in Turkiye (and elsewhere?) Hamas is viewed as a terrorist organisation in UK and elsewhere.

On this forum I have read many calls from people for the other Eurofighter countries to pressurise Germany to change its position regarding supply to Turkiye. The way I read that is as a call for them to help.

US blocks supply of F-16 to Turkiye while Turkiye blocks Sweden joining NATO. If blackmail is present both countries are involved in it.

In reality I think F-16 supply will not take place because it has to get past the US Congress. I believe that Americans idolise Israel as some kind of 'good guy' country surrounded by 'bad guys' and that is reflected in their elected representatives supporting Israel, whatever Israel does. I think they will vote against supplying Turkiye whether the block on Sweden is lifted or not.
 

Ripley

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On this forum I have read many calls from people for the other Eurofighter countries to pressurise Germany to change its position regarding supply to Turkiye. The way I read that is as a call for them to help.
This is true. People simply request other partner countries to push Germany to lift their veto. And not only in this forum and other social media either, I’m afraid.

Now, even our government officials tooting their horns loudly everywhere, simply telling you can kiss Sweden’s membership goodbye while any arms deals were not the part of Sweden’s acceptance to the NATO. The official Turkish stand was their harboring an organization officially recognized as terrorist by NATO and offshoots of the said organization.
Apples and oranges.
 

Spitfire9

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As far as I know it is not Sweden blocking a sale to Turkiye. It is not NATO. It is Germany. Why make life difficult for Sweden and NATO? If you want to persuade Germany to change its mind, how about doing that instead of creating problems for others? Carry on like this and you may end up in a worse position than now. No F-16, no Typhoon and jeopardising F110 for KAAN. No new western or Turkish fighters for many years. Has it not dawned on Turkiye that it is moving towards that position?
 

RMZN

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As far as I know it is not Sweden blocking a sale to Turkiye. It is not NATO. It is Germany. Why make life difficult for Sweden and NATO? If you want to persuade Germany to change its mind, how about doing that instead of creating problems for others? Carry on like this and you may end up in a worse position than now. No F-16, no Typhoon and jeopardising F110 for KAAN. No new western or Turkish fighters for many years. Has it not dawned on Turkiye that it is moving towards that position?
Because Sweden still is a safe haven for PKK terrorists, their sympathizers, and most important of all for pkk subgroups gathering funds on Swedish soil. Germany would block an Eurofighter sale to Turkey, even if there wasnt any Swedish NATO membership application. After all Turkey was already placed under an arms embargos years prior. Turkeys request for new F-16s goes all the way back to 2018, yet the US never gave their OK and back then Swedens NATO membership application wasnt even a thing.
 
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godel44

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I don't want to get tied up with what organisations are terrorist organisations except to say that if PKK kill civilians in pursuit of political objectives and Hamas kill civilians in pursuit of political objectives they are both just that in my view.

PKK is viewed as a terrorist organisation in Turkiye (and elsewhere?) Hamas is viewed as a terrorist organisation in UK and elsewhere.

On this forum I have read many calls from people for the other Eurofighter countries to pressurise Germany to change its position regarding supply to Turkiye. The way I read that is as a call for them to help.

US blocks supply of F-16 to Turkiye while Turkiye blocks Sweden joining NATO. If blackmail is present both countries are involved in it.

In reality I think F-16 supply will not take place because it has to get past the US Congress. I believe that Americans idolise Israel as some kind of 'good guy' country surrounded by 'bad guys' and that is reflected in their elected representatives supporting Israel, whatever Israel does. I think they will vote against supplying Turkiye whether the block on Sweden is lifted or not.
That kind of moral relativism fails here because Sweden, due to the EU, also recognizes the PKK as a terror organization. So it’s not a “your terrorist, my freedom fighter” kind of situation. This is the main obstacle for their NATO membership, not F16s. The subject of PKK is more important than Sweden or any aircraft.
 

GoatsMilk

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Because Sweden still is a save haven for PKK terrorists, their sympathizers, and most important of all for pkk subgroups gathering funds on Swedish soil. Germany would block an Eurofighter sale to Turkey, even if there wasnt any Swedish NATO membership application. After all Turkey was already placed under an arms embargos years prior. Turkeys request for new F-16s goes all the way back to 2018, yet the US never gave their OK and back then Swedens NATO membership application wasnt even a thing.

When dealing with European origin peoples at a political level its all about having leverage, you either have it or you don't. If you don't have it you have to create facts on the ground to give you that leverage. Isreal is not part of NATO and committing an open genocide and thieving more land as we talk now, no f'ks are given by westerners, even f35's went to them first. No embargoes, no sanctions, no nothing. And keep in mind that Isreal has been known to spy on the west and share her secrets with the chinese and russians including tech transfers. When it came to Isreali interests, the zionist lobby would even undermine american interests, including attacking american naval assets.

What's the lesson? The International zionist organisation has most of the west by the balls, they cant say or do shit. Most westerners are even terrified to mention the word "jew" should the "organisation" came after them and destroy their lives labelling them anti-Semites, being cancelled and sacked from work. Some people end up being completely black listed from all walks of life.

Now if you don't have leverage, barking only does you more harm because you give europeans more incentive to harm you. In a situation with no leverage, its best to keep your mouths shut.

In england one thing i learned early on is europeans don't actually give a shit for your side of the argument, to the contrary they just want to talk down to you and try to dictate to you.

Let me give you an example i've had all sorts of people ask me about the armenian allegations. non-europeans once hearing the other side of the argument became interested in it, some even went away and looked into what i said and came back to me and said you know what you were right. The White Europeans on the other hand never actually cared for what i had to say, they just wanted to beat me down with their propaganda which is used as a way to insult you and antagonise you. Even to silence you and label you.

The point is next to nothing is done out of the goodness of their hearts, you either have somethig to give in return or you have leverage over them. Nothing else matters. And as you can see if you are weak compared to them, they just to look to shit all over you.
 

Rooxbar

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As far as I know it is not Sweden blocking a sale to Turkiye. It is not NATO. It is Germany. Why make life difficult for Sweden and NATO? If you want to persuade Germany to change its mind, how about doing that instead of creating problems for others? Carry on like this and you may end up in a worse position than now. No F-16, no Typhoon and jeopardising F110 for KAAN. No new western or Turkish fighters for many years. Has it not dawned on Turkiye that it is moving towards that position?
NATO is 80% U.S. If Sweden is trying to get into NATO it's because of U.S. persuasion, in order for them to have a more pronounced military presence in the Arctic as the ice melts away. Turkey has been trying to have conversations about U.S. role in propping up PKK in Syria, which they are justifying by disingenuously using ISIS' non-existent threat as an excuse to rename PKK in Syria to sell it as some sort of independent "democratic" paramilitary group to have them stand guard for them when they steal oil from northern Syria and turn PKK into an effective army, and create another puppet state in the region akin to Israel (a second aircraft carrier if you will) to be able to put further pressure on regional independent actors like Iran and Turkey without having to deal with an independent state, instead opting to create an obedient tool in "Kurdistan".

U.S. is willing to completely ignore and scuff at an ally's genuine security concerns right on its borders, just to have a second Israel in the middle east, thousands of kilometers away from its borders, and they are willing to demonize and alienate Turkey in the process because Turkey and its armed forces have dared to show some independence in pursuing their interests in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Aegean. So they have signalled that the only thing they will tolerate is complete obedience and puppet-hood, and if Turkey is not willing to play that role, they have no problem in elevating a separatist terrorist group to fill in the gap.

Turkey will have to use any card they can to convince the ever vanishing number of rational actors in U.S. state apparatus, which is being completely hijacked by myopic considerations of lobbying groups, that Turkey sees the adventurous nature of U.S. foreign policy on Turkey's borders as existential threats and that the cost of creating the 2nd Israel out of PKK is too high to maintain. Sweden is one trump card to signal this (and Sweden is fair game, as they have been instrumental in propping up PKK in Syria). If U.S. decides that Turkey's ally-ship is worth less than a second Israel through PKK, then not only F110s but even an alliance with the west will be questioned. We're in a transitional period, and the decisions have to be made by U.S. Unfortunately our government has been doing a botchy job of conveying these messages; because of mismanagement of economy, they are too wary of upsetting the markets. But the day of judgement is inching ever closer and the crucial decisions have to be made in the end.

Just to note, these Turkish endeavors to acquire F-16s and Typhoons are genuine requests to replenish TURAF's aging fleet, sure. But they are also a part of the signal. They help us gauge commitments and in the meantime, by evaluating the response, tweak the roadmap for the mid-term engagement with the west on the question of EU's maximalist attitude in Eas-Med, and U.S. support for Greek maximalist positions in the Aegean. You cannot just support fully the opposing side of your "ally" in the case of all conflicts of interest, and then just expect them to grovel. That's not a rational expectation.

To have a proper discussions in these matters you have to know quite a bit about how much U.S. has meddled in Turkish internal affairs, literally attempting to hijack our government, and the process we've gone through with PKK and EU accession talks, etc. to know the nuances of the discussions. Watching YouTube videos and reading op-eds by journalists who cannot spell Turkish president's name, about how Turkey is the troublemaker of NATO just doesn't cut it. That just proves to us that U.S., its state department and the network of think tanks and media feeding from its statements still are adamant about doubling down on their ridiculous plans. (Because "Turkey is the troublemaker of NATO" is not a serious analysis, it is just an attempt of propagandizing the domestic audience by obscuring the facts and not discussing the issue in an objective way, completely ignoring Turkey's counter arguments. Even if American think tanks and media genuinely held that position, if they didn't want to do propaganda for decisions that they have already made, but they wanted to engage genuinely in debate to resolve issues, they would try to answer Turkish side's argument and that would require mentioning them, which they never do; so, from that, you can deduce those hit pieces are not genuine discussions.)
 
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Spitfire9

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NATO is 80% U.S. If Sweden is trying to get into NATO it's because of U.S. persuasion, in order for them to have a more pronounced military presence in the Arctic as the ice melts away.
I mention this because Sweden is tied up with F-16 supply to Turkiye.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine polls showed that the majority of Swedes expressed a preference for neutrality. After Russia invaded Ukraine polls showed that the majority of Swedes expressed a preference for joining NATO. Nothing to do with America but rather a desire for defence if attacked by Russia. Russia persuaded Sweden to apply for NATO membership.

Another country I see likely to be worrying about its security is Moldova.
 

Rooxbar

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I mention this because Sweden is tied up with F-16 supply to Turkiye.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine polls showed that the majority of Swedes expressed a preference for neutrality. After Russia invaded Ukraine polls showed that the majority of Swedes expressed a preference for joining NATO. Nothing to do with America but rather a desire for defence if attacked by Russia. Russia persuaded Sweden to apply for NATO membership.

Another country I see likely to be worrying about its security is Moldova.
Russian preparation and the kind of mobilization and the number of troops with which they attacked Ukraine, betrayed the fact of their plan a and plan b from the get-go (i.e. you cannot conquer a country of that size, with that kind of mobilization). The little stunt with the march to Kiev was a gamble, and the speed with which they backed off shows they didn't put much faith in that gamble. To believe Western intelligence agencies about Russian plans prima facie, and taking seriously the proclamations about "Putler's" imperialist dreams is as serious as talking about Erdogan's Ottoman dreams.

Now the fact that Swedes are not immune to propaganda and their consent was manufactured duly, does not change the fact that U.S. has been pushing for a more nationalist strand in Ukraine to, contrary to the wishes of the French and the Germans, ignore the Minsk Agreements and push for confrontation instead. The fact that this process would lead to the Swedish and Finnish public perception being receptive of entering NATO, esp. after a healthy dose of 1-week of fear-mongering by "independent" media, would not have been a far-fetched prophecy.

I think it's safe to assume U.S., as the big boss of NATO, has a little bit more say in who they can wink at to woo in. Since day 1, U.S. has been saying that they are "certain" Sweden and Finland will join NATO. Doesn't seem like they think anybody else had any say, or that this was a very haphazard development.
 
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Saithan

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Nice discussion going on. But what I don’t quite understand is why RTE and TAF aren’t causing tussle in YPG/PKK controlled area in Syria.

Taking Manbij would infuriate the PKK sympatizers in Europe like in the past. What’s important is to keep fanning these flames. So the general public in EU starts perceiving the danger of PKK. Guess the US threatening Turkey must have made us stand down, biding our time.

Why even bother to ask for fighter jets and thereby create a bad image when you know your so called allies are just going to say no. Just order 100 rolls royce jet engines from UK and make your own jet.
 

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