TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

Ecderha

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USAF new RAM paint for its F-16CJ (SEAD) Fleet. Claims 30% smaller RCS value.

I think it would be wise for us to develop and use our own RAM paint, maybe with the experience gained through TF-X, on our F-16 Fleet. 30% is not a small difference.
if it is empthy airplane (no munition or addons which create RCS value).............but what about when this airplane is loaded with all munition on picture.......hmm I guess even less then 30%.

If you guys remember sarbian war.............they able to detect f-117 because OPEN DOOR.........stealth was lost...............If we compare RAM with F-16 as if there are no addons 30% stealth is something.....At least for research, development etc........but nothing more
 

Ecderha

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Turkey will send a new/more comprehensive request letter to the USA for 40 new F-16s.
"new/more comprehensive request letter".......................It is clear for all............usa DID NOT CHANGE it is hostile stance since it started at 2014 ..............
usa show it again.....again............again.......again............again and ...........again.............that NO CHANGED............

We have turk people which Like to lie themself and some usa offical SAY some LIE = Show it as good word said on news........and then some Turks think that usa changed it is stance.........it is NOT

As I said many many times..........LOOK for FACTS..............usa goverment PASSED document/PAPERS with writings and clauses.........Turkiye to apply embargo.....it is ACTIVE.......

Saying Bla Bla BLa from usa president or congesment or usa politition or military general or ambasador ..........MEAN NOTHING..........NADA.........No weight.........only naive people will be lie themselfs and they will be used as napkin and throw it




Only logical thing which Turkiye officals CAN DO is TO write this Offical documents which will be used SOME DAY in future..........AS FACT that usa MUST RETURN stealed Turks money......................

In mean time usa WILL use this time to make Turkiye to wait and wait and wait and wait................usa hope that this way may some Turkiye military project CAN be DELAYED......


We are in mid to long TIME since usa from 2014 have potential to REALY DAMAGE Turkiye military projects and ASSETS..............But as we already know Turkiye able to manage VERY WELL this period and usa LOST......................

usa is suffering they UNDERSTAND that they LOST Turkiye....................
 

B.t.N

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usa is suffering they UNDERSTAND that they LOST Turkiye...

Guess what, they would not give a rat‘s ass, wheels in the US do not revolve on emotional will power!
 

Fairon

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*sigh* what is the bloody point?

I guess we really want to retire the F4 and we really don't want to setup another logistics and maintenance line unless we have to.(Our alternative options will cause a lot of headache for us just to aquire and probably will cause more headache to maintain so i guess we really want to make sure we won't get F16's before we look for alternatives)
 
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Manomed

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I guess we really want to retire the F4 and we really don't want to setup another logistics and maintenance line unless we have to.(Our alternative options will cause a lot of headache for us just to aquire and probably will cause more headache to maintain so i guess we really want to make sure we won't get F16's before we look for alternatives)
Tbh F4s are still the best Air to ground jets we have they carry lots of munitions (heavy high explosive) unlike Drones or F16s we have.
 

Fairon

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Tbh F4s are still the best Air to ground jets we have they carry lots of munitions (heavy high explosive) unlike Drones or F16s we have.

That is correct but they are old. How long can we keep them in the air?(in a meaningfull way)
 
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Manomed

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That is correct but they are old. How long can we keep them in the air?(in a meaningfull way)
If you ask me If we can get the spare parts we should keep them in air at least for 5 years. F4s are the work horse of Turkish air forces air to ground bombings.

If the air force adopts aksungur drone maybe we can retire the F4s.
 

Ecderha

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usa is suffering they UNDERSTAND that they LOST Turkiye...

Guess what, they would not give a rat‘s ass, wheels in the US do not revolve on emotional will power!
If you undertstand that there are Emotion about my saying. Let me explain -> There are no Emotions about it.


-I just try to Say FACTs happend as usa Actions and Turkiye reactions.............
-I just try to Say What changed in power balance between usa and Turkiye since 2014 usa hostaile campain and how this period passed
-I just try to Say FACTs that Turkiye Survive ( military projects and platforms created products.........economy take hit but survived..............social -> Turks people understand and Feel it on they backs-> mean people lost they lives ..............politicaly Turks saw which country sided with usa and which DID NOT........)
-I just try to Say that Turkiye is FREE from usa (you may not understand that but FACTS are there on each level of Turkiye ACTIONS)



NOW in PRESENT we See Turkiye SAY or APPLY ACTIONS which can not be ignored and usa like it or not they take them seriously...........

For me Germnay, France are trying to apply their own steps to become free ...... They want to become equal on table with usa
 

Ecderha

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That is correct but they are old. How long can we keep them in the air?(in a meaningfull way)
As long as possible............Untill we have replacement...........it is is not ABOUT THE BEST..........IT IS ABOUT CURRENT STATE WHERE Turkiye is............
It is all upto Turkiye :) I really happy about Turkiye now.............it have better future..........

There are so many military platforms which Turkiye Created and They ARE PROVEN and NEW TECH on battlefield which ALL WORLD TRY TO UNDERSTAND
Mean they do not know what are possiblilities and what are not

All SAID Turkiye have ECO SYSTEM Working VERY GOOD AND CREATE AND PRODUCE PRODUCTS.
EVEN BETTER OTHER COUNTRIES BUY THIS PRODUCTS .................... I mean they buy first batch of produces products :)
 

B.t.N

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If you undertstand that there are Emotion about my saying. Let me explain -> There are no Emotions about it.


-I just try to Say FACTs happend as usa Actions and Turkiye reactions.............
-I just try to Say What changed in power balance between usa and Turkiye since 2014 usa hostaile campain and how this period passed
-I just try to Say FACTs that Turkiye Survive ( military projects and platforms created products.........economy take hit but survived..............social -> Turks people understand and Feel it on they backs-> mean people lost they lives ..............politicaly Turks saw which country sided with usa and which DID NOT........)
-I just try to Say that Turkiye is FREE from usa (you may not understand that but FACTS are there on each level of Turkiye ACTIONS)



NOW in PRESENT we See Turkiye SAY or APPLY ACTIONS which can not be ignored and usa like it or not they take them seriously...........

For me Germnay, France are trying to apply their own steps to become free ...... They want to become equal on table with usa
I didn’t say you were (emotional). Turkey’s reactions, in most cases, seem way overblown as evaluated by the West…
 

MADDOG

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Screen Shot 2022-04-19 at 20.48.25.png


So we have one of our Stratotankers flying out of Turkey to the US. Had a stop at New Jersey it seems. She is most likely flying there in order to receive upgrades.
 

Brokengineer

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If you ask me If we can get the spare parts we should keep them in air at least for 5 years. F4s are the work horse of Turkish air forces air to ground bombings.

If the air force adopts aksungur drone maybe we can retire the F4s.
Akinci is the one most likely to replace f4's for air to ground attack. Since it is capable of handling heavy payloads like neb84 which aksungur simply could not.
Drones are much cheaper to service operate and they can stay airborne much longer.
 

Anmdt

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Ibrahim Sunnetci mentions it:
Quote:
A special hull constructed from fiberglass is placed on the outside of the pressure hull to reduce the acoustic signature and improve hydrodynamics. Carbon fiber materials are also partially used in the construction of the outer hull, which uses special Radar Absorber Materials (RAM) and paints. Under the leadership of STM, studies were carried out to produce RAM materials and paints to be used in REIS Class Submarines with domestic capabilities.
Unquote.


But apart from when it is at the surface and/or at periscope depth, Radar Absorbing Materials are not going to help the submarine much, especially when fully submerged. There are however ani sonar anechoic coatings. And they work.
But RAM coatings too are applied to subs, and have been helpful to mask radar signature of subs near the surface.
The RAM paint used for sea vessels and planes may or may not be the same. @Anmdt may comment on that more!
Submarines are easily detected via SAR during snorkeling or when they have surfaced. Possibly to reduce chanced of being spotted they apply RAM on the snorkel-periscope and other parts that may be exposed during times spent on the surface.

Paints are not my expertise, but there should be slight difference in the bandwidth which RAM material is optimized for, as well. I think warships locate their importance on X & S mainly band and upper K band which surface search radars and anti-ship missile seekers usually operate, respectively. Also the paint should be able to withstand corrosion and its main duty is to protect the steel. The RCS is usually minimized by not leaving abrupt shaped parts exposed on the deck / board and using inclined surfaces as much as possible but i know certain areas which a special paint was applied to, and possibly to keep the anti-ship missile away from there.
 

Cypro

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Akinci is the one most likely to replace f4's for air to ground attack. Since it is capable of handling heavy payloads like neb84 which aksungur simply could not.
Drones are much cheaper to service operate and they can stay airborne much longer.
Yes, 7 Akıncı or 11 Aksungur can replace one Phantom... nice...
 

Yasar_TR

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Yes, 7 Akıncı or 11 Aksungur can replace one Phantom... nice...
Nothing in Turkish Army’s current inventory can replace F4s.
In fact the only aircraft that can replace and do justice to f4, is F15. US airforce replaced the F4 with two more modern aircrafts; F15 and F16 for air operations, and with F14 Tomcat in the navy. That alone shows what a versatile platform it was at it’s time.
It is the fastest and highest altitude flight enveloped aircraft in the TuAF’s inventory. Only twin jet engined plane Turkey has. It also has the largest capacity for payload.
When you need large payloads to reach battlefield quicker, this is the type of plane to have.
For anti-terrorism operations within or close proximity to our borders, Akinci or Aksungur would be able to do the job almost as effectively even better and more economically, due to their loitering capability. But they can never replace f4s vis-a-vis. We will have to wait for MMU in beast mode for that.
 

TNAHN

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Yes, 7 Akıncı or 11 Aksungur can replace one Phantom... nice...
Jet-powered warplanes reach the operation area very fast, but they have to drop the bombs and return immediately. because it can stay in the air for 2-3 hours without refueling. But the uav don't have to arrive quickly on the scene. It can stay in the air for a long time. If you keep the uav in the air all the time, you eliminate the speed disadvantage of the uav. In Diyarbakir airbase, 15-20 akıncı can undertake most of the ground operations.
If the 2x1000 horsepower version of Akıncı can keep a 2000 kg bomb load in the air for 12 hours, it can undertake most of the ground operations.. 2000 kg means 2 neb bombs and we have no other bombs heavier and more effective than this. Let the tb-2s detect and convey the coordination to the akıncı, and the akıncı will drop bombs on the targets. At the end of 12 hours, the other akıncı will take off. or hold 2 akıncı uavs in the air at the same time, load bombs of different weights. Configure the UAV according to whatever you ultimately need.
 

Yasar_TR

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Jet-powered warplanes reach the operation area very fast, but they have to drop the bombs and return immediately. because it can stay in the air for 2-3 hours without refueling. But the uav don't have to arrive quickly on the scene. It can stay in the air for a long time. If you keep the uav in the air all the time, you eliminate the speed disadvantage of the uav. In Diyarbakir airbase, 15-20 akıncı can undertake most of the ground operations.
If the 2x1000 horsepower version of Akıncı can keep a 2000 kg bomb load in the air for 12 hours, it can undertake most of the ground operations.. 2000 kg means 2 neb bombs and we have no other bombs heavier and more effective than this. Let the tb-2s detect and convey the coordination to the akıncı, and the akıncı will drop bombs on the targets. At the end of 12 hours, the other akıncı will take off. or hold 2 akıncı uavs in the air at the same time, load bombs of different weights. Configure the UAV according to whatever you ultimately need.
Most of what you write is correct. But it is not the whole story.
For operations within or close proximity to our borders what you propose is doable.
But operating the drones in another country’s air space is another kettle of fish.
We mustn’t deceive ourselves; We need to get our facts right. These drones are not as exactly as what they are portrayed. Without any payload and full tank they go up to 40000ft and some of them may even stay up there for a reasonably long time.
But with full load, their altitude or their stay at air time is severely compromised.
So it is a compromise between; in the airtime/payload/altitude.
Anyone thinking that drones are going to replace a full fledged fighter jet, is deceiving himself big time. If that were the case including US, all the countries capable of producing advanced drones would have switched to drones from jet fighters.
That will start to happen after MIUS! Hopefully!
A small and because of that a stealthy drone like TB2, flying at 20000ft at a comparatively slow speed will be deadly to enemy ground positions at the front lines. Especially if it can be supported with good EW systems.
But Akinci and Aksungur are big birds and are difficult to hide.
Away from our boarders they need to have very good EW support to survive.
In fact if you check how all drones are used; you will find that they are predominantly at front lines. Not for deep strike missions. Unless you have full air superiority and the enemy skies are devoid of AD systems, it would be short of suicide to push drones in to deep enemy territory.
Akinci has flown for 25hours at 38000ft with no payload.
Then it has flown with full load (1360kg) and managed to stay in air for 13.5 hours at a maximum altitude of 30000ft. It is still a good feat of achievement. But not comparable to 2.2 Mach jet plane flying at an altitude of 60000ft.
(The F-4 has set 16 records for speed, altitude and time-to-climb. It established the world altitude record at 98,556ft in 1959 and speed record at 1,604mph on a 15-mile circuit in 1961.)
So please don’t compare a turboprop drone with an old beast like Phantom F4. Two different worlds!

 
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Cypro

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Jet-powered warplanes reach the operation area very fast, but they have to drop the bombs and return immediately. because it can stay in the air for 2-3 hours without refueling. But the uav don't have to arrive quickly on the scene. It can stay in the air for a long time. If you keep the uav in the air all the time, you eliminate the speed disadvantage of the uav. In Diyarbakir airbase, 15-20 akıncı can undertake most of the ground operations.
If the 2x1000 horsepower version of Akıncı can keep a 2000 kg bomb load in the air for 12 hours, it can undertake most of the ground operations.. 2000 kg means 2 neb bombs and we have no other bombs heavier and more effective than this. Let the tb-2s detect and convey the coordination to the akıncı, and the akıncı will drop bombs on the targets. At the end of 12 hours, the other akıncı will take off. or hold 2 akıncı uavs in the air at the same time, load bombs of different weights. Configure the UAV according to whatever you ultimately need.
I am being sarcastic huh!..calm down.. never mix apples with doughnuts.. Every platform has its own use, drones opened up a new level but they are far from replacing F16, F4s.. and I am sick of seeing people comparing them so I won't read these replies.
 

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