TR Artillery Systems & Projects

[Yasar_TR]

Then you will ask me to add the title in English, you will not complain "Why I cannot see the content in the article in front of me". Judging by the exclamation marks you put, you're the pragmatic and smug one.

You need to get a hold of your mannerism first. I warned you about the wrong language use. The exclamation marks are there to let you know that your post was not in English. Even now the article you have shared is in Turkish. But I gave you the benefit of the doubt and removed your warning. Added a sampler explanation.
Just give up this line of argument please. You know very well that you need to write in English in this forum. Any more, then you WILL get a warning and also these posts will be deleted. Don’t derail the thread please.

 

[Yasar_TR]

A couple interesting points here.

1. The first agreement was signed with Caterpillar to develop an engine with ITAR-free components together with Turkish engineers based on the core of an already existing Caterpillar engine.
This agreement was scraped later after L3 Harris offered a better deal in terms of financials.
2. German Company RENK has bought the L3 Harris Propulsion Systems Business with which the deal was signed.

The question here is, will this powerpack be ITAR-Free too? L3 Harris(RENK) touts it as "The Turkish Powerpack" but how much export freedom do we have? How smart was it to go into business with an company that has been bought by a german company with which we already have problems (Altay Transmission). Or have we gone into another business adventure where we will get the short end of the stick once we want to export our howitzers by having the german government be able to veto the transfer of engines?! Or even have further orders of powerpacks be cancelled by the german government and land at the same spot we were at with MTU?!

Essentially the question here is how much power has Germany over the RENK America Combat Propulsion Systems Company?

3. X1100™-5A4 Automatic Transmission has acc. to the article been developed solely for the Firtina-II by Allison Transmission. Is this true?

4. The article talks about a possible powerpack upgrade of the M60A3 fleet but I did not get the feeling it was a sealed deal.

5. Some Firtina-I will be upgraded to the Firtina-II standard. Why not upgrade all? Maybe some are just too old?

Going through straight logic and how international sales are conducted;
”MTU is owned by RR. But UK government has no say on it’s selling decisions. German government decides.
L3Harris is essentially an American company. So US will have a say in who they can sell and can’t. Germans don’t have a say in it.”
But at the end of the day unless we have full production and control in Turkey and full rights in our hand, I wouldn’t like to trust a US company either.

 

[TheInsider]

HST

Sahip olduğu nitelikli insan gücü ve sürekli geliştirdiği teknolojik altyapısı ile Türkiye ve dünyada lider sistem üreticilerinden olmaktır. HST kendisine, çalışan ve müşteri memnuniyeti ile ülkenin mutluluk ve refahını hedef edinir.

www.hstotomotiv.com.tr

English Link

HST

Technical power and production capacity of HST makes it one of the largest plants of its kind in the world. HST wants to keep its leading position in gear systems production among the world class companies.

www.hstotomotiv.com.tr

Faaliyet Alanları – NORBO

norbo.com.tr

This looks like it is a local production with export rights.

 

[Zafer]

And for those of us who use text to speech to listen to articles, my device does not read Turkish but only reads English. So it helps if it is in English even if we can read Turkish.

 

[Yasar_TR]

As per @TheInsider ‘s above post, it does look like a local production with all rights in hand. Since L3Harris has already given these rights to the Turkish company, there is no going back on it.

 

[TheInsider]

As per @TheInsider ‘s above post, it does look like a local production with all rights in hand. Since L3Harris has already given these rights to the Turkish company, there is no going back on it.

Well, the references section speaks for itself. It seems like HST will be responsible for the production of the power pack or at least the transmission part.
X1100-5A4 transmission can be coupled with engines up to 1500HP and can be used for vehicles up to 63.5 tonnes.

 

[Oublious]

When you are restricted like that, then you need to write a small explanatory note as a concise translation of the article. The language of the forum is English and we all have to abide by it. It has nothing to do with my comfort or pleasure! No need to be pragmatic and cocky!

Well if go read a topic in the Indonesian section i need to learn Indonasion?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Well if go read a topic in the Indonesian section i need to learn Indonasion?

Sorry! But your point? I didn’t quite understand what you meant. Can you please open it up a bit?
Indonesian section too has to provide a concise translation of the topic in English. They need to convey the basic information across in English for everyone to understand.
That goes for our Turkish friends too.

 

[UkroTurk]

HST

Sahip olduğu nitelikli insan gücü ve sürekli geliştirdiği teknolojik altyapısı ile Türkiye ve dünyada lider sistem üreticilerinden olmaktır. HST kendisine, çalışan ve müşteri memnuniyeti ile ülkenin mutluluk ve refahını hedef edinir.

www.hstotomotiv.com.tr

English Link

HST

Technical power and production capacity of HST makes it one of the largest plants of its kind in the world. HST wants to keep its leading position in gear systems production among the world class companies.

www.hstotomotiv.com.tr

Faaliyet Alanları – NORBO

norbo.com.tr

This looks like it is a local production with export rights.

Is Türkiye going to upgrade all m60s??

İ didn't understand.

Why not just producing new modern medium tanks ?

 

[TheInsider]

Is Türkiye going to upgrade all m60s??

İ didn't understand.

Why not just producing new modern medium tanks ?

No decision on that yet and I don't think upgrading all M-60s is logical .M-60TM weighs 56 tonnes while medium tanks weigh 35-40tonnes. M-60TM can be classified as a heavy tank. We also need to design a new turret for the medium tank because Cockerill doesn't sell us their turrets. Turret of the Kaplan MT is delivered directly to the customer country. Currently, M-60TM is the best tank we have.

 

[UkroTurk]

Old M60 weights heavier than a modern medium tank however the weight doesn't make M60 safer since the new gen armour technology is much more than thickness of iron.

But i totally agree about new turrets for medium tanks. Creating a new turret wouldn't be a problem for Turkish defence industry as we have been able to make smart autocannons.

 

[Stuka]

We also have the export rights of the powerpack. IMHO it is a great success. According to the link, 53 power packs will be delivered this year. The first one will be delivered in June. Those power packs can also be used for upgrading M60 tanks without any change or additional engineering redesign. It is fully compatible with the existing M60 tanks and requires no changes on the tank it is plug and play. Now there is no obstacle to a national SABRA upgrade package. I also have additional info that the BMC Power 1000HP powerpack will be used to power 35-40ton class heavy IFVs after securing this deal.

We should upgrade another 150-200 M60A3 tanks and bring those to M60T standards. 300 LEO2T, 250 Altay (40 T1/210 T2), and 300-350 M60T(currently 160+) can satisfy our needs for the foreseeable future. Altay T3 should be hugely redesigned to make it compatible with the new MBT trends.

Can you Elaborate on the BMC 1000HP Powerpack application.

Are you talking about the 2018 "YHZA" with 2952 Vehicles (1167 8x8, 6x6 AV + 1800 Tracked AV)

> The BMC 8x8s were supposed to fitted with 600hp AZRA Engines
> and The FNSS 8x8s with Tümosan 530hp Engines Respectively

Even though both use Cat C13 Engines currently.

 

[TheInsider]

Old M60 weights heavier than a modern medium tank however the weight doesn't make M60 safer since the new gen armour technology is much more than thickness of iron.

We are not talking about old M-60s here. We are talking about a SABRA level upgrade. Sabra can withstand hits from ATGMs. SABRA protected its crew many times with its add-on armor. I don't think a medium tank can take a hit from an ATGM and its crew survives to tell the tale.

 

[TheInsider]

Can you Elaborate on the BMC 1000HP Powerpack application.

View attachment 44859

Are you talking about the 2018 "YHZA" with 2952 Vehicles (1167 8x8, 6x6 AV + 1800 Tracked AV)

> The BMC 8x8s were supposed to fitted with 600hp AZRA Engines
> and The FNSS 8x8s with Tümosan 530hp Engines Respectively

Even though both use Cat C13 Engines currently.

No. I'm talking about something like Tulpar with add-on armor. That is over 40 tonnes in weight. A real tracked heavy IFV. A part of the 2900+ vehicles will consist of tracked heavy IFVs I don't know how many. Those will be similar to German Puma.

https://defense.otokar.com.tr/OtokarSavunma/media/Otokar-Savunma/arac-brosur/TULPAR-EN-BR-2021-(AP02EG-21)-onizleme.pdf

Puma (German infantry fighting vehicle) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Stimpy75]

that M60 upgrade is a very old project which nobdy ordered (from my tanknet.forum times and nobody really knew who's project that was!)...so i don't know why you shared that here?

 

[TheInsider]

that M60 upgrade is a very old project which nobdy ordered (from my tanknet.forum times and nobody really knew who's project that was!)...so i don't know why you shared that here?

M-60TM is a further upgrade of the SABRA Tank. Basically, an up-to-date upgrade of M-60T SABRAs. On top of that we are replacing every fire control system on SABRA tanks.

M60T tanklarına yerli ve milli Atış Kontrol Sistemi: Volkan-M

2022 yılında M60T tanklarındaki atış kontrol sistemlerinin yerli ve milli Volkan-M sistemiyle yenilenmesine başlanacak

www.defenceturk.net

If we upgrade M-60A3 with those above, a new Allison powerpack ( plug and play) and Roketsan armor package. This becomes a Turkish SABRA upgrade with up-to-date components.

 

[Stuka]

Firtina II Procurement Retrospect.

03/2020
Agrrement with L3 Harris for the AVDS-1790 Engines and Serial Production start at Arifiye.

FIRTINA-II’nin motor problemi çözüldü | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri’nin en stratejik ateş destek vasıtalarından biri olan T-155 FIRTINA Obüsü’nün yeni modeli olan FIRTINA-II, seri üretime geçiyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

12/2020
Initial Batch of 3 Firtina II were Produced

3 adet Fırtına-II Obüsü Ocak'ta teslim edilecek

25 yıllığına BMC firmasına kiralanan Sakarya'nın Arifiye ilçesindeki Tank Palet Fabrikası'ndan müjdeli bir haber geldi.

t54.com.tr

06/2021
3 more were delivered until June 2021.

TSK envanterine 140 adet Fırtına 2 alınacak

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, 2022-2027 yılları arasında Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri'nin envanterine 140 adet "T-155 Fırtına 2 Obüsü" alınacağının müjdesini verdi.

www.yeniakit.com.tr

Until 06/2021 BMC (ASFAT) have produced 6 Firtina IIs with MTU 1000HP Powerpacks used from Stocks at Arifiye Plant.

---

Interview from 04/2021

TSK envanterine 140 adet Fırtına 2 alınacak

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, 2022-2027 yılları arasında Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri'nin envanterine 140 adet "T-155 Fırtına 2 Obüsü" alınacağının müjdesini verdi.

www.yeniakit.com.tr

Muhsin Dere, Deputy Minister of National Defense:
"In Cooperation with BMC Defense We plan to take 140 T-155 Self-Propelled Storm Howitzers into the inventory between 2022-2027."
"The production of 3 New Howitzers was completed in December 2020, and it is anticipated that 3 more will be completed by June 2021."
> Production Line will start again some time in 2022.

News from 06/2022

FIRTINA-II K/M Obüsler için 1.200bg Motor Teslimatı Haziran 2022’de Başlıyor!

2018 yılında imzalanan anlaşma altında Kara Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı (KKK) için sipariş edilen Yeni Nesil FIRTINA (FIRTINA-II) Kundağı Motorlu (K/M) Obüsleri için bir süredir beklenen 1.200bg kapasiteli 12 silindirli (V12) AVDS-1790-9A Dizel Motoru teslimatlarına Haziran 2022’de başlanılıyor...

www.defenceturkey.com

53 AVDS-1790 Engines in 2022, From June to December.

If the Production of 140 Firtina II is supposed to be between 2022-2027 than this faster than needed.
140 Firtina II in 5 Years equals 2 per Month.

53 Engines a 2 Howitzer/Month = 26 Months
> Production until at least 07.2023 with AVDS-1790 Engines,

---

BMC Power 1000HP was stated to be completed in 2023.
Including Tests and Optimizations this will likely take till late 2023 early 2024.

We may see the switch to the National Powerpack around 2024

 

[what]

Afaik Germany doesnt control German companies foreign dependences, and many companies have used them in the past to evade certain embargoes. Also existing contract is and existing contract and would lead to heavy penalties if they were broken.

 

[TheInsider]

Firtina II Procurement Retrospect.

03/2020
Agrrement with L3 Harris for the AVDS-1790 Engines and Serial Production start at Arifiye.

FIRTINA-II’nin motor problemi çözüldü | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri’nin en stratejik ateş destek vasıtalarından biri olan T-155 FIRTINA Obüsü’nün yeni modeli olan FIRTINA-II, seri üretime geçiyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

12/2020
Initial Batch of 3 Firtina II were Produced

3 adet Fırtına-II Obüsü Ocak'ta teslim edilecek

25 yıllığına BMC firmasına kiralanan Sakarya'nın Arifiye ilçesindeki Tank Palet Fabrikası'ndan müjdeli bir haber geldi.

t54.com.tr

06/2021
3 more were delivered until June 2021.

TSK envanterine 140 adet Fırtına 2 alınacak

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, 2022-2027 yılları arasında Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri'nin envanterine 140 adet "T-155 Fırtına 2 Obüsü" alınacağının müjdesini verdi.

www.yeniakit.com.tr

Until 06/2021 BMC (ASFAT) have produced 6 Firtina IIs with MTU 1000HP Powerpacks used from Stocks at Arifiye Plant.

---

Interview from 04/2021

TSK envanterine 140 adet Fırtına 2 alınacak

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, 2022-2027 yılları arasında Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri'nin envanterine 140 adet "T-155 Fırtına 2 Obüsü" alınacağının müjdesini verdi.

www.yeniakit.com.tr

Muhsin Dere, Deputy Minister of National Defense:
"In Cooperation with BMC Defense We plan to take 140 T-155 Self-Propelled Storm Howitzers into the inventory between 2022-2027."
"The production of 3 New Howitzers was completed in December 2020, and it is anticipated that 3 more will be completed by June 2021."
> Production Line will start again some time in 2022.

News from 06/2022

FIRTINA-II K/M Obüsler için 1.200bg Motor Teslimatı Haziran 2022’de Başlıyor!

2018 yılında imzalanan anlaşma altında Kara Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı (KKK) için sipariş edilen Yeni Nesil FIRTINA (FIRTINA-II) Kundağı Motorlu (K/M) Obüsleri için bir süredir beklenen 1.200bg kapasiteli 12 silindirli (V12) AVDS-1790-9A Dizel Motoru teslimatlarına Haziran 2022’de başlanılıyor...

www.defenceturkey.com

53 AVDS-1790 Engines in 2022, From June to December.

If the Production of 140 Firtina II is supposed to be between 2022-2027 than this faster than needed.
140 Firtina II in 5 Years equals 2 per Month.

53 Engines a 2 Howitzer/Month = 26 Months
> Production until at least 07.2023 with AVDS-1790 Engines,

---

BMC Power 1000HP was stated to be completed in 2023.
Including Tests and Optimizations this will likely take till late 2023 early 2024.

View attachment 44861

We may see the switch to the National Powerpack around 2024

There is a chance but I highly doubt that.

 

[what]

Unrelated to our developments but still a good read about modern artillery:

The modern cannons that may make the difference in Ukraine

Who will pound harder?

www.economist.com