Turkish Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

TheInsider

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We literally had the Saudis kidnap and kill someone in their embassy in Istanbul and did not kick out their ambassador.
We don't know what bargains were made behind the doors and we got out of it.
 

TheInsider

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The Turkish is slightly off but in English they said they are maintaining compliance, while in Turkish it says they will comply. Interpreted very differently by different people, pro-Erdoganists believe he won and the US is taking a step back, for example.

Rorschach test

Even publishing something means a step back. Otherwise, the US should have said we are reiterating what we declared earlier. A country like the US doesn't need to do things like that.
 

mulj

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Telling a country to follow their domestic and international laws isn't really interfering, a joint statement against Mr Saudi Arabia who cut a human into pieces in Turkey, or expulsion of their ambassador would have been nice. Or maybe a joint Turkic statement on China
You lost me on first sentence :) how it is not?
 
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POOTIN

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You lost me on first sentence :) how it is not?

They are not attempting to change the judiciary conclusions, they are saying Turkey should follow Turkish law and international law - though it can be argued they are saying AKP are messing with judicial independence (which they are)

They have a point, how long was Osman's pre-trial detention? Why was it so long? Does it abide by Turkish law? Is there a timeline of the events? When was he convicted?

Of course the west will use it to target Erdogan, but they're not explicitly breaking rules in doing so. It's like a statement on Russia's elections being fraudulent, there is evidence to conclude so. Or on China. Where international law and domestic law is concerned, you cannot say this is our affairs for example. Otherwise states could do very bad things and nobody would have a right to say anything. Article 41 is more like, supporting politicians of one party, bribery, domestic involvement. If the ambassadors were making statements in favour of the CHP, these would be violations.

And there is nothing violating article 41 if assange is brought up in a statement if it is about domestic and international law being violated. Countries make statements like that all the time, like about Iran.

It is in European interests to target local authoritarians within their ranks, like Hungary. They don't care about outside Europe.

It's 2021 now, which is crazy to think that Gezi was so long ago.
 

mulj

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They are not attempting to change the judiciary conclusions, they are saying Turkey should follow Turkish law and international law - though it can be argued they are saying AKP are messing with judicial independence (which they are)

They have a point, how long was Osman's pre-trial detention? Why was it so long? Does it abide by Turkish law? Is there a timeline of the events? When was he convicted?

Of course the west will use it to target Erdogan, but they're not explicitly breaking rules in doing so. It's like a statement on Russia's elections being fraudulent, there is evidence to conclude so. Or on China. Where international law and domestic law is concerned, you cannot say this is our affairs for example. Otherwise states could do very bad things and nobody would have a right to say anything. Article 41 is more like, supporting politicians of one party, bribery, domestic involvement. If the ambassadors were making statements in favour of the CHP, these would be violations.

And there is nothing violating article 41 if assange is brought up in a statement if it is about domestic and international law being violated. Countries make statements like that all the time, like about Iran.

It is in European interests to target local authoritarians within their ranks, like Hungary. They don't care about outside Europe.

It's 2021 now, which is crazy to think that Gezi was so long ago.
Ok, in other words that is patronizing and you support that? Let me asure there is no country in world especially non western world were you can not find some bizzare and non aligned legal case within international law and within domestic laws also but those embassies does not go around and share lectures about it unless they do not want to push particular political agenda, which is fine and their legitimate source of aquiring influence but at other hand it is even more fine to tell them "fuck of".
 
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Ok, in other words that is patronizing and you support that? Let me asure there is no country in world especially non western world were you can not find some bizzare and non aligned legal case within international law and within domestic laws also but those embassies does not go around and share lectures about it unless they do not want to push particular political agenda, which is fine and their legitimate source of aquiring influence but at other hand it is even more fine to tell them "fuck of".

Yeah well Navalny is also a good example, constant statements about him. This occurs all the time.

Yes, those states saying "fuck off" they are free to do that as well.

In this case though, Erdogan is at fault and he is attempting to present it as a win to his voterbase. The west are being very delicate about damaging Erdogan but keeping Turkey.


20211025_174524.jpg
 

mulj

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Sure, no problem with that, he would be stupid if not use that opportunity given ba entitled high ground from western states.
I like to give simple analogies. You have son and you put him in some kind of detention and 10 others peoples from neighbourhood constantly tells you that you violate his rights bla, bla, bla. What you would do?
 

Sinan

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Even publishing something means a step back. Otherwise, the US should have said we are reiterating what we declared earlier. A country like the US doesn't need to do things like that.
- US and 9 other gives a joint statment.
- President of Turkey claims that statement doesn't fall under Vienna convention.
- US, refutes Erdogan's claim and says that their decleration falls under Vienna convention.

And you say this is a step back by US. Bro, many people here are not stupid, please don't make fun of the intelligence of the people of this forum.
 
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POOTIN

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Sure, no problem with that, he would be stupid if not use that opportunity given ba entitled high ground from western states.
I like to give simple analogies. You have son and you put him in some kind of detention and 10 others peoples from neighbourhood constantly tells you that you violate his rights bla, bla, bla. What you would do?

If I feel I am right I was say they are wrong, that they are putting their nose in my business.

Same analogy, your neighbour is beating his kid bloody. The other neighbours are talking about. You are suspicious the person living opposite you will begin to abuse his child as well. So a group of you make a statement saying to follow the rules which say not to abuse children. You feel more comfortable that this has made any other neighbours who were thinking of beating their child to reconsider. The one who was beating their child says you are not allowed to interfere in their business.

- US and 9 other gives a joint statment.
- President of Turkey claims that statement doesn't fall under Vienna convention.
- US, refutes Erdogan's claim and says that their decleration falls under Vienna convention.

And you say this is a step back by US. Bro, many people here are not stupid, please don't make fun of the intelligence of the people of this forum.

The wording is slightly different and more ambiguous in Turkish however, almost like they said they meant they will comply in the future. It's really strange. It seems they gave Erdogan a chance to de-escalate because they know he will take the country with him in spinning this for nationalist points for domestic voters.
 

Sinan

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Yeah well Navalny is also a good example, constant statements about him. This occurs all the time.

Yes, those states saying "fuck off" they are free to do that as well.

In this case though, Erdogan is at fault and he is attempting to present it as a win to his voterbase. The west are being very delicate about damaging Erdogan but keeping Turkey.


View attachment 34292
Looks like Çavuşoğlu, made Erdogan eat his words.

Well, Erdogan is no stranger to U-turns. Doesn't matter he adds one to the list.
 

Sinan

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The wording is slightly different and more ambiguous in Turkish however, almost like they said they meant they will comply in the future. It's really strange. It seems they gave Erdogan a chance to de-escalate because they know he will take the country with him in spinning this for nationalist points for domestic voters.
They said Erdogan should relase Kavala, and they didn't took it back.

I really don't care for who said what. There are talks of sanctions from Europe because of the human rights violations in Turkey. We shall see.
 

mulj

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If I feel I am right I was say they are wrong, that they are putting their nose in my business.

Same analogy, your neighbour is beating his kid bloody. The other neighbours are talking about. You are suspicious the person living opposite you will begin to abuse his child as well. So a group of you make a statement saying to follow the rules which say not to abuse children. You feel more comfortable that this has made any other neighbours who were thinking of beating their child to reconsider. The one who was beating their child says you are not allowed to interfere in their business.
So what is the problem? Turkey feels right about this case.

About second analogy, no one is is beated, as far as i know, only imprisoned.
 
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POOTIN

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So what is the problem? Turkey feels right about this case.

About second analogy, no one is is beated, as far as i know, only imprisoned.

It is pre trial detention for how long now? It is a violation. Yes Turkey can complain, but it doesn't come under the Vienna article. The main community that use this as a defence are the ones who will defend Erdogan with whatever they can, as Erdogan is Turkey to them.
 

Sinan

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It is pre trial detention for how long now? It is a violation. Yes Turkey can complain, but it doesn't come under the Vienna article. The main community that use this as a defence are the ones who will defend Erdogan with whatever they can, as Erdogan is Turkey to them.
I see you are trying to talk sense Erdogan fans. My humble advice is "just use ignore button".

These people even would defend Erdogan whatever he does.
 

mulj

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It is pre trial detention for how long now? It is a violation. Yes Turkey can complain, but it doesn't come under the Vienna article. The main community that use this as a defence are the ones who will defend Erdogan with whatever they can, as Erdogan is Turkey to them.
Ok, violation of convention it is, so what? How many conventions eu violate with borders fencing for example, all i say it is puting their nose which does not belong and sadly it pass as legit thing.
 
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Ok, violation of convention it is, so what? How many conventions eu violate with borders fencing for example, all i say it is puting their nose which does not belong and sadly it pass as legit thing.

I understand your sentiment, but:

Screenshot_20211025_185502.jpg


I thought this article was a good read. I like gladiator, good movie..

 

mulj

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I understand your sentiment, but:

View attachment 34294


I thought this article was a good read. I like gladiator, good movie..

Lol, who decide what are human rights and who violates them, anyway i get your position, only one more remark, eu can not teach Turkey about "human rights"unles in some really perverted sense of things.
 

Bogeyman 

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What happened behind the scenes at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs after Erdogan's statement that we are expelling the ambassadors;
Turkey: You gave us an ultimatum. This work goes as far as the expulsion of the ambassadors.
USA: No. we didn't give an ultimatum, we just put our "sensitivities" forward. Let's not prolong this matter any longer.
Turkey: You cannot save yourself like this. You will declare the notice invalid the same way you announced it.
USA: OK

Source TRT HABER live broadcast. Afternoon hours

Everyone is aware that the US has not stopped showing its "sensitivities". However, our friends who want to gloss over the issue are trying to bury that they gave an ultimatum.
 
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