Turkish History|Debate and Discussion

Ryder

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If you nitpick the most trivial works just to avoid self criticism than thats what I am going to call you.

I mean how immature, childish one must be to refuse to see Ottoman was a failed civilization. At the end of it, it was completely subjugated, occupied, diminished, destroyed, taken over, indebted, humiliated.

It isnt just a fallen empire. You cant explain it with "every empire rises and falls." Ottoman was a failed civilization.
British Empire also fell but British civilization has been successful.

So instead of acknowledging this very obvious fact and doing sth about it, twisting the history and nitpicking anectodes for historical revisionism and trying to exculpate a dead empire because of romaticism will make us fail the modern Turkey as well.

We have to acknowledge Ottoman mentality led this nation to a complete disaster and humiliation. Ataturk saw this and thats why he wanted to disassociate the newly founded young Turkish state with Ottoman Empire.

But islamist-populist governments dragged us backed to the darkness of Ottoman Empire again.

Nice to condemn a 600 year old empire because of the akp.

Once again the Ataturk fanboyism shows your bias yet again.

Also I say no matter how much you hate the Ottoman Empire you never will be Western or European. You are a Turk just like me.

So keep hating on your history.


Whole science and technology in the Ottoman Empire is a new field of study that has just being worked on.

Ottoman Empire was usually overlooked in European, Islamic and world history. Until now that people started studying them properly.

The Romans, Byzantines, Ummayads, Mongols, Abbassids, Timurids, Seljuks, Ghaznavids and other various empires and kingdoms fell. Does this make them failures???

Every empire and civilsation falls thats a fact of life. Ottomans like all empires has its birth grows then reaches its peak then dies off.

Also thanks for going off topic yet again.
 
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Yasar

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I have to ask users to stay on topic and conduct discussions without ad hominem and within courteous language limits.
posts containing personal insults will be deleted.
Please let us be nice to each other and respect each others point of views.
 
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Tornadoss

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The Ottomans made great achievements in art, science and medicines. European elites visited Istanbul (worldwide recognized as a artistic hub) for surgeries for example. They invented many medical tools what we are using today. Let alone Ottoman architecture with their stunning buildings, the reason why tourists are visiting Turkey today.

They are not visiting Turkey to see buildings build by the drunk Ismet In繹n羹, they are interested in Ottoman buildings made by Mimar Sinan and his students. They visit Turkey to see the map of Piri Reis, the first drawn worldmap and the most accurate of that period.

Ottomans invested a lot of money, time and brains in calligraphy, painting, poetry, mathematics, astronomy, carpet weaving techniques, ceramics, philosophy, music, geography and chemistry and today the Turkish republic is eating from their fruits.

Even the most anti-Ottoman Turks dont say that the Ottoman culture was a failed civilisation. Its the only history you got and the only reason that the world recognizes you. If you keep saying that your civilisation was a disaster, that means that you also are a disaster.

The world doesnt respect or fear you because of Mustafa Kemal and his tiny farmers republic without islands. They fear or respect you because of your great and massive Ottoman forefathers.

I guess you would say Ataturk also drunk but you don't have the courage so directing it to Inonu.
If it was not them you were visiting Istanbul with a passport, remember that. It was the Ottomans also who lost these lands. Ottomans are our past. But, that's it they are finished now you have to accept that we are living in Republic of Turkey. You need to release yourself from dreams of resurrecting the Empire back. The Ottomans achievements are mostly from 1400-1600s then decline is began. And they missed the every scientific and industrial developments.

People are also coming Turkey for the beaches, to see the ancient Greek Roman, Lydian, Hittitie cities.

Actually in Turkey respect there is contribution of Ataturk whether you like it or not.
 

Ryder

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I guess you would say Ataturk also drunk but you don't have the courage so directing it to Inonu.
If it was not them you were visiting Istanbul with a passport, remember that. It was the Ottomans also who lost these lands. Ottomans are our past. But, that's it they are finished now you have to accept that we are living in Republic of Turkey. You need to release yourself from dreams of resurrecting the Empire back. The Ottomans achievements are mostly from 1400-1600s then decline is began. And they missed the every scientific and industrial developments.

People are also coming Turkey for the beaches, to see the ancient Greek Roman, Lydian, Hittitie cities.

Actually in Turkey respect there is contribution of Ataturk whether you like it or not.

Nobody cares about the Greeks, Romans or hittities. Anatolia belongs to the Turks. Our ancestors built this land not the Romans, Greeks or the hittites.

Its the Turks who built Turkey this includes the Seljuks, Ottomans and Ataturks republic of Turkey.

Guys like Ardabas love hiding behind Ataturk to dish out their venom against the Ottomans. They will miss like 200 to 300 years of being strong while exclusively focusing on their decline and collapse only for them to call them a joke.

Ataturk is an Ottoman officer and fought for the Empire until its last breath. He was just smart enough to realise the empire was dead and cant be saved anymore.
 

Tornadoss

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Nobody cares about the Greeks, Romans or hittities. Anatolia belongs to the Turks. Our ancestors built this land not the Romans, Greeks or the hittites.

Its the Turks who built Turkey this includes the Seljuks, Ottomans and Ataturks republic of Turkey.

Guys like Ardabas love hiding behind Ataturk to dish out their venom against the Ottomans. They will miss like 200 to 300 years of being strong while exclusively focusing on their decline and collapse only for them to call them a joke.

Ataturk is an Ottoman officer and fought for the Empire until its last breath. He was just smart enough to realise the empire was dead and cant be saved anymore.
Yes yes there was no civilization before Turks in Anatolia. One of the most visited attraction in Istanbul Ayasofya which is the main architectural inspiration for the mosques in Turkey even today, built by the Romans. Efes Ancient city built by the Romans. All Aegean region is full of ancient cities. There is Sumela built by Romans. Newly discovered Gobeklitepe all full of domestic and foreign tourists. It might be hard to know these facts from Australia. Attributing everything to the Ottomans is not correct. Ottomans mostly invest in capitals and Balkans. Apart from that there is not much investment by Ottomans in Anatolia.
 

Ryder

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Yes yes there was no civilization before Turks in Anatolia. One of the most visited attraction in Istanbul Ayasofya which is the main architectural inspiration for the mosques in Turkey even today, built by the Romans. Efes Ancient city built by the Romans. All Aegean region is full of ancient cities. There is Sumela built by Romans all full of domestic and foreign tourists. It might be hard to know these facts from Australia. Attributing everything to the Ottomans is not correct. Ottomans mostly invest in capitals and Balkans. Apart from that there is not much investment by Ottomans in Anatolia.

Anatolia especially the interior is full of Seljuk history.

There were civilisations and empires before the Turks tookover. But who cares as the Turks tookover.

Anatolia became our home. Turkey is full of Seljuk and Ottoman history.

People are now visiting Sogut thanks to Dirilis. I dont like that show either but hey it works for Turkish tourism.

You look at Istanbul you see more Ottoman structures than the Romans/Byzantines.

In short when people talk about Turkey what comes to peoples minds its the Turks or the Ottomans not the Greeks, Romans or the Ancient Anatolians.
 

Ryder

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Greek, Roman and Ancient Anatolian places or ruins are only good for the tourist money.

Any Average Turk just does not care about the Greeks or the Romans because it does not form our identity.

I know the Ottomans used the title Kayser Al Rum. Well its just another political title to add. Everybody tried to claim the Roman Empire for political reasons like the HRE, Tsarist Russia and Naploeon Bonaparte. Also the Germans and Austrians used Kaiser which means Ceasar.
 

Ryder

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Gokturks and the Huns even the Mongols get more attention than the Hittities or any other ancient Anatolian civilisation.

Why do nomads get so much attention among the Turks???

Because it forms our identity and its part of our history. Gokturks or the Huns never ruled Anatolia but Central Asia has always been seen as the motherland/fatherland among the Turks.

Post Islamic you have the Karakhanids, Ghaznavids various other Islamic Turkic Empires. Which get more interest than the Greeks or Romans among the Turks.

Us Turks even name our sons Timur. I dont see any Turk naming their son Leonidas, Muwatalli or Octavius.
 

Ardabas34

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Nobody cares about the Greeks, Romans or hittities. Anatolia belongs to the Turks. Our ancestors built this land not the Romans, Greeks or the hittites.

Its the Turks who built Turkey this includes the Seljuks, Ottomans and Ataturks republic of Turkey.

Guys like Ardabas love hiding behind Ataturk to dish out their venom against the Ottomans. They will miss like 200 to 300 years of being strong while exclusively focusing on their decline and collapse only for them to call them a joke.

Ataturk is an Ottoman officer and fought for the Empire until its last breath. He was just smart enough to realise the empire was dead and cant be saved anymore.

I dont have any beef with Ottoman Empire. It is the stupidest thing to look at history with an emotional view.

Ottoman Empire just like every other place other than Europe be it China, India, Central Asia, Japan were a traditional authoritarian society.

This scientific, curious, renaissance mentality could only flourish in Western Europe.

Date of universities go as far back as medieval era in Europe. No, btw Istanbul University wasnt founded in 1453. It was just a madrasah. Turks didnt have a university until 1773 "M羹hendishane-i Berr簾-i H羹m璽y羶n"
30 years later it was literally 19th century and as with everything else in late Ottoman Empire it was founded for the modernisation of the military. It was a complete imitation of European technical universities. It didnt come from an Ottoman tradition.
They desperately hired European teachers to educate students.

Mentality of @Nein2.0(Nomad) is right now the ruling mentality of Turkey.
For them Europe achieved everything by enslaving people or robbing Aztec Empire. What of course they dont question is why Spain and Portugal are so behind while Germany is the most ahead.
Germany was flattened in 2nd World War. Japan was nuked, Korea was behind Turkey but they are all uncomparably better than Turkey right now.

Today they made Turkey indeed like the falling period of Ottoman Empire. Because they insisted on the mistakes of the Ottomans instead of learning from them. They declare every person critical of them traitors and they dont care about merit for state positions or at bids. Universities are filled with charlatan ass licker clowns like that Yaar Hac覺saliholu. They favor people like these for everything and the country is rotting from behind. If you criticise this, you are the traitor. Typical Ottoman mentality.

Chinese are now becoming the next superpower. Do you see a Chinese insisting on the success of Qing Empire?

They call it "the century of humiliation"

Today they became a superpower all thanks to their complete westernisation.
They will miss like 200 to 300 years of being strong


Ottoman Empire even in 16th century was a bad place to live save for the folks of Istanbul and couple of other cities.

Only 30 years after Suleiman the so called "Magnificent"s era, Celali rebellions and b羹y羹k ka癟gun begins. This was supposedly the golden age of Ottomans.

Ottomans had enourmous military and political power but they never were a wealthy state where the science has flourished.

Look at Nein2.0 now. How he got aggressive in his attitude because I criticised the mentality of a dead empire because he deems them as his ancestors.

No society can come to anywhere with this mentality. This is child mentality. You are destined to repeat thr mistakes and that is precisely what Turkey does.

In a previous arguement he also had defended tariqahs. Since Seljukids, since Baba Ilyas rebellions such tariqahs had harmed Turkish states. Just 5 years ago anotger one attempted a coup.
Right now Menzil tariqah is organising within the state institutions.
They dont acknowledge their mistakes. They stand behind them even if it means death. They simply say "that tariqah was bad but this one isnt" and continue.
 
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Ryder

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Ottomans ruled Greece for like 400 to 500 years.

Despite the Ottomans being part of their history. Ottomans just never form the identity of the Greeks.

Greeks form their identity from Ancient Greece, Roman Empire along with the Byzantine Empire.

I rest my case.
 

Ryder

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I dont have any beef with Ottoman Empire.
Ottoman Empire just like every other place other than Europe be it China, India, Central Asia, Japan were a traditional authoritarian society.

This scientific, curious, renaissance mentality could only flourish in Western Europe.

Date of universities go as far back as medieval era in Europe. No, btw Istanbul University wasnt founded in 1453. It was just a madrasah. Turks didnt have a university until 1773 "M羹hendishane-i Berr簾-i H羹m璽y羶n"
30 years later it was literally 19th century and as with everything else in late Ottoman Empire it was founded for the modernisation of the military. It was a complete imitation of European technical universities. It didnt come from an Ottoman tradition.
They desperately hired European teachers to educate students.

Mentality of @Nein2.0(Nomad) is right now the ruling mentality of Turkey.
For them Europe achieved everything by enslaving people or robbing Aztec Empire. What of course they dont question is why Spain and Portugal are so behind while Germany is the most ahead.
Germany was flattened in 2nd World War. Japan was nuked, Korea was behind Turkey but they are all uncomparably better than Turkey right now.

Chinese are now becoming the next superpower. Do you see a Chinese insisting on the success of Qing Empire?

They call it "the century of humiliation"

Today they became a superpower all thanks to their complete westernisation.



Ottoman Empire even in 16th century was a bad place to live save for the folks of Istanbul and couple of other cities.

Only 30 years after Suleiman the so called "Magnificent"s era, Celali rebellions and b羹y羹k ka癟gun begins. This was supposedly the golden age of Ottomans.

Ottomans had enourmous military and political power but they never were a wealthy state where the science has flourished.

Prople who want the Ottoman Empire to comeback are brainless.

I used to be those types in my teenage years while also larping about how cool Nazi Germany was due to me playing lots of Cod.

If Erdogan uses Ottoman nostalgia because its huge among a lot of conservatives and nationalists.

Not just Turks who have nostalgia even the Russians are engaging in it by looking back at the Tsarists and the Soviets.

We all know the Erdogan and Putin will never bring these empires back.

If Erdogan wanted to bring the Ottomans back he knows it will be the end of his power and career. The Ottoman royal family still exists this would lead to Erdogan sacrificing his power to make way for the royal family.

Akp elites are already enjoying being at the top why wpuld they sacrifice it for some nostalgia.

Nostlagia is even seen among Westerners and Europeans who loved the days of being at the top.

As I said before im against the very thing of any empire coming back. I acknowledge the Ottoman Empire is dead along with our figures like Babur, Alparslan, Kilic Arslan, Atilla and Mete Han.

But they all left their legacies. Turkey today is the Republic of Turkey nobody denies this and Ataturk is the father figure of the Repubic which he founded.

When it comes to a lot of stuff like colonialism, industrial revolution and the age of sail along with the scientific revolution.

Us Turks not participating in this hurt us in the long run as Europe got stronger we declined and collapsed.

I critised this before many times the Ottomans turned their back or were just arrogant or maybe we just did not care. So many questions to ask.

When the Europeans were engaging in colonialism we should have participated and challenged them.

Colonialism played a big role in Europe setting off the industrial revolution

Barbarossa Hayreddin even wanted to do expedition into the Americas but Ottoman highers said no and focus on the Med.

My biggest criticism of us Turks is the economy. Us Turks always make Non Turks run our economy this has been the norm with the Seljuks and the Ottomans. Capiulations became enormous damage in the long run.
 
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Tornadoss

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Gokturks and the Huns even the Mongols get more attention than the Hittities or any other ancient Anatolian civilisation.

Why do nomads get so much attention among the Turks???

Because it forms our identity and its part of our history. Gokturks or the Huns never ruled Anatolia but Central Asia has always been seen as the motherland/fatherland among the Turks.

Post Islamic you have the Karakhanids, Ghaznavids various other Islamic Turkic Empires. Which get more interest than the Greeks or Romans among the Turks.

Us Turks even name our sons Timur. I dont see any Turk naming their son Leonidas, Muwatalli or Octavius.

I am not debating what you write here. But for people who are interested in history everything is important in Turkey. For me not just Ottomans, not just Seljuks. BTW, Do you think you have %100 central Asian DNA? The people lived in this geography didn't disappeared suddenly they mixed up with the new comers event you have a little percent of them in your blood.
 

Ryder

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I am not debating what you write here. But for people who are interested in history everything is important in Turkey. For me not just Ottomans, not just Seljuks. BTW, Do you think you have %100 central Asian DNA? The people lived in this geography didn't disappeared suddenly they mixed up with the new comers event you have a little percent of them in your blood.

Well im not going to disagree here.

Greeks, Romans and the Hittites are interesting no doubt I tend to focus on Turkic history both Pre Islamic and Post Islamic and Islamic history when I look into other history like German, Native American its secondary for me.

When it comes to Dna of course we are not pure we are all mixed.

What matters is culture, customs and language. Turkish language is a Turkic language and Turkey is a Turkic country. No matter how many foreign words we have in Turkish it does not change anything that is a Turkic language of the Oghuz Branch.

Thats why we tend to focus so much on Turkic history because it explains our identity and who we are.

We do have dna from the people who lived here before the Turks came but at the end they themselves became Turks.
 

Ryder

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Most Turks regardless of their political views will never welcome a monarchy back even if it was a constiutional one

Republican views are strong in Turkey but its also growing worldwide including in Australia.

A lot of political experts believe monarchies wont be surviving in the future not even constitutional monarchies.

Maybe they could be wrong but if we compared the past to the future.

Monarchy has shrunk worldwide as we have more republics than monarchies.

Then again North Korea could also count as an unoffical monarchy. Due to the sucession of father to son.
 

Ardabas34

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Ottomans ruled Greece for like 400 to 500 years.

Despite the Ottomans being part of their history. Ottomans just never form the identity of the Greeks.

Greeks form their identity from Ancient Greece, Roman Empire along with the Byzantine Empire.

I rest my case.

No empire up until the rise of colonial empires changed the identities of its citizens.

People dont get how weak authorities states had over their people before the modern states.

State in Ottoman Empire was the annoying tax officer/sipahi that visited your village twice a year.

There was no school, no government institutions, no newspaper nothing.

Ottoman Empire also was a Christian majority state even at the foundation. Plus Cizye tax was an important revenue source. So it wasnt wise to convert Christians.

The reality is that European Empires exploited better because they had more developed imperialist institutions to exploit their subjects.

Even in 17th century Ottomans had to give state positions to Celali rebels so they would stop rebelling.

It also didnt rule all those places shown in the map. They just bound kings to themselves in foreign affairs. Vassalized them. Even in Eastern Anatolia it was the local Kurds who were only allied with the Ottoman Empire.

Long story short Ottoman Empire lacked the authority and the advanced imperial inatitutions to exploit its subjects like European Empires. Of course it wasnt a matter of good intention as the neo-Ottomanist, Islamist propagandists say.

People think I am annoyed at Ottoman Empire for stating these fact. Ottoman Empire wasnt any different than Iran, India, China, Japan or anywhere else but Europe. It is the Europe that found the right path.

Though I am annoyed by the Ottoman fanboys.

China, Japan understood what it had to understood and completely adopted the western mentality and prospered. They didnt have a vile population mass insisting on how Confucionist ideology is superior.
Turkey also did and has become successful but it has become as successful as Kemalism and failed as much as how much of islamism/ottomanism there is in the population.
Unfortunately for the last 20 years that part took over and we have been suffering and going back in all the civilizational parameters.
 

Ryder

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No empire up until the rise of colonial empires changed the identities of its citizens.

People dont get how weak authorities states had over their people before the modern states.

State in Ottoman Empire was the annoying tax officer/sipahi that visited your village twice a year.

There was no school, no government institutions, no newspaper nothing.

Ottoman Empire also was a Christian majority state even at the foundation. Plus Cizye tax was an important revenue source. So it wasnt wise to convert Christians.

The reality is that European Empires exploited better because they had more developed imperialist institutions to exploit their subjects.

Even in 17th century Ottomans had to give state positions to Celali rebels so they would stop rebelling.

It also didnt rule all those places shown in the map. They just bound kings to themselves in foreign affairs. Vassalized them. Even in Eastern Anatolia it was the local Kurds who were only allied with the Ottoman Empire.

Long story short Ottoman Empire lacked the authority and the advanced imperial inatitutions to exploit its subjects like European Empires. Of course it wasnt a matter of good intention as the neo-Ottomanist, Islamist propagandists say.

People think I am annoyed at Ottoman Empire for stating these fact. Ottoman Empire wasnt any different than Iran, India, China, Japan or anywhere else but Europe. It is the Europe that found the right path.

Though I am annoyed by the Ottoman fanboys.

China, Japan understood what it had to understood and completely adopted the western mentality and prospered. They didnt have a vile population mass insisting on how Confucionist ideology is superior.
Turkey also did and has become successful but it has become as successful as Kemalism and failed as much as how much of islamism/ottomanism there is in the population.
Unfortunately for the last 20 years that part took over and we have been suffering and going back in all the civilizational parameters.

Christian majority of the empire is what led to expansion in the middle east.

For the ottomans it was a smart move.

To say they had no schools and instituions are wrong. Madrassas were literally schools not just religious. Madrassas became religious schools due to modern schools.

Mahmud II actually made madrasas into religious schools. Madrassas before taught a wide range of subjects.

To say the Ottomans had no schools or even science is wrong and goes against historical facts.

I get your criticism but you got to critique with constructive arguments rather than calling the Ottomans or even Seljuks a dead empire with no education is eurocentric. Even calling them a joke. I critise the Ottomans a lot but I do it right. If I was a fanboy I wont be critique a lot of the Turkic Empires while at the same time I praise them in a lot of things.

Japan's modernisation is an interesting one. Because they had no competing ethnic groups neither did they had to worry about external wars. Emperor Meiji was a smart and wise guy.

So many Japanese Feudal lords were against modernisation or even industrialisation was due to privledges none of them wanted to lose their way of life.

Same with a lot of traditionalists like the Jannisaries who cared more about their privledges.

If you compare both the Ottomans and China. China was in a much worse state.

Ottomans despite some resistance could at least adapt to whatever Europe can throw. China was a complete conservative country and also loved isolating itself.

China mainly took off due to Mao Zedong. I dont support communism but China becoming what it is today came at an enormous cost in casualties and even the destruction of its culture.

Turkey in the future is neither going to be Ottomanist or even Kemalism.

A lot of the youth are becoming liberal or social democrat. Its a global trend.

Ottomans ruled from the gates of Vienna to the borders of Morocco. The lands we ruled had so much potential especially in resources. If we were keen on explorations even expeditions we could have even taken Australia. We had no capitalist mindset or the mindset of exploiting the lands we ruled.

We never even bothered to Turkify the places we conquered.

Turks ruled simple. Pay your taxes, pledge alleiginace to the leader. Become our tributary or vassals and we will largely leave you alone.

Mongols also ruled like this too they will largely leave you alone if you submit.

The Kurdish issue well the Ottomans had to fight the Safavids. Safavids used Alevis as a proxy against the Ottoman empire while the Ottomans used the Kurds as a proxy to combat the Safavids and their Kizilbash soldiers. It made sense especially at those times.

I know the Ottomans committed some awful atrocities but the Safavids also committed their fair share. Overall the Ottoman and Safavid wars were bloody and messy. Shah Ismail invasion of Uzbekistan was pretty bloody.
 

Ardabas34

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Christian majority of the empire is what led to expansion in the middle east.

For the ottomans it was a smart move.

To say they had no schools and instituions are wrong. Madrassas were literally schools not just religious. Madrassas became religious schools due to modern schools.

Mahmud II actually made madrasas into religious schools. Madrassas before taught a wide range of subjects.

To say the Ottomans had no schools or even science is wrong and goes against historical facts.

I get your criticism but you got to critique with constructive arguments rather than calling the Ottomans or even Seljuks a dead empire with no education is eurocentric. Even calling them a joke. I critise the Ottomans a lot but I do it right. If I was a fanboy I wont be critique a lot of the Turkic Empires while at the same time I praise them in a lot of things.

Japan's modernisation is an interesting one. Because they had no competing ethnic groups neither did they had to worry about external wars. Emperor Meiji was a smart and wise guy.

So many Japanese Feudal lords were against modernisation or even industrialisation was due to privledges none of them wanted to lose their way of life.

Same with a lot of traditionalists like the Jannisaries who cared more about their privledges.

If you compare both the Ottomans and China. China was in a much worse state.

Ottomans despite some resistance could at least adapt to whatever Europe can throw. China was a complete conservative country and also loved isolating itself.

China mainly took off due to Mao Zedong. I dont support communism but China becoming what it is today came at an enormous cost in casualties and even the destruction of its culture.

Turkey in the future is neither going to be Ottomanist or even Kemalism.

A lot of the youth are becoming liberal or social democrat. Its a global trend.

Ottomans ruled from the gates of Vienna to the borders of Morocco. The lands we ruled had so much potential especially in resources. If we were keen on explorations even expeditions we could have even taken Australia. We had no capitalist mindset or the mindset of exploiting the lands we ruled.

We never even bothered to Turkify the places we conquered.

Turks ruled simple. Pay your taxes, pledge alleiginace to the leader. Become our tributary or vassals and we will largely leave you alone.

Mongols also ruled like this too they will largely leave you alone if you submit.

The Kurdish issue well the Ottomans had to fight the Safavids. Safavids used Alevis as a proxy against the Ottoman empire while the Ottomans used the Kurds as a proxy to combat the Safavids and their Kizilbash soldiers. It made sense especially at those times.

I know the Ottomans committed some awful atrocities but the Safavids also committed their fair share. Overall the Ottoman and Safavid wars were bloody and messy. Shah Ismail invasion of Uzbekistan was pretty bloody.

Emrah Safa Gurkan talked about the madrasas of the Ottoman Empire. He says Ottoman society was a non-book reading society. Thats why printing press didnt come actually. Because there was no demand because people had no habit of reading books. The amount of books madrasah students read were so limited in numbers.

Also you are forgetting Ottoman Empire was a direct neighbour of Europe whereas Chinese met them in a pretty late state.
 

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The Ottomans made great achievements in art, science and medicines. European elites visited Istanbul (worldwide recognized as a artistic hub) for surgeries for example. They invented many medical tools what we are using today. Let alone Ottoman architecture with their stunning buildings, the reason why tourists are visiting Turkey today.

They are not visiting Turkey to see buildings build by the Republic, they are interested in Ottoman buildings made by Mimar Sinan and his students. They visit Turkey to see the map of Piri Reis, the first drawn worldmap and the most accurate of that period.

Ottomans invested a lot of money, time and brains in calligraphy, painting, poetry, mathematics, astronomy, carpet weaving techniques, ceramics, philosophy, music, geography and chemistry and today the Turkish republic is eating from their fruits.

Even the most anti-Ottoman Turks dont say that the Ottoman culture was a failed civilisation. Its the only history you got and the only reason that the world recognizes you. If you keep saying that your civilisation was a disaster, that means that you also are a disaster.

The world doesnt respect or fear us because of our tiny farmers republic without islands. They fear or respect us because of our great and massive Ottoman forefathers.
 

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