TR Propulsion Systems

[Osman]

Does tf 6000 really exist? Or is it just a speculation? Apart from this forum, I have not read anything about it. When we will be able to see it you think friends?

 

[Nilgiri]

I have no doubt about Tusas making the plane to the specs given without a problem. Especially with the twin F110 engines as a 4++ generation fighter. But when it comes to the 35000lbf class engines that TR Motor was designing, it seemingly has a somewhat larger diameter than the aircraft can accommodate. Prof Aksit sounded like having a bit of sour grapes since they were not involved in this project. But he did say that the producing the plane before the engine being not correct was his opinion.
If you have engines like US has, readily available under your hand, then it is no big deal if you produce the plane before the engine. But if you are like us with difficulty in obtaining the right sized engine, then it is imperative to guarantee supply of the correct engine first.
Also if your prospective engine dimensions are not known and you produce the plane first, you could be jeopardising the program. This is going to be a stealth plane. If the engine diameter is bigger than what you have planned for, then you may have to re design the whole fuselage and airframe.
You could fit a F414 in to a Gripen in place of a F404. But you could have problems with say an EJ-200. Although not impossible.
If memory serves, when Gripen engine was changed in the new E and F block planes to F414, from f404; the plane’s airframe was redesigned by Akaer Group of Brazil to get the best out of the new engine, in spite of the almost identical dimensions of both engines.

The other option is to design (the airframe) with some measure of flexbility for the powerplant's "range" (governing its physical dimensions and thrust).

i.e rather than design for a strict axbxc volume producing X lbf thrust and weighing Y kg (modelled on centroid etc)..... you design for suitable +/- range governing these.

It is doable in today's design process and software (I can vouch for that)....of course at compromise of detailed design not getting frozen for some time, but staying in an earlier relatively conceptual + fluid tier (which is still useful working reference when you do ultimately select the powerplant to input and then take forward to detailed design).

But it is an option if the powerplant is not secure....and you want to get design process underway while the powerplant decision resolves more firmly.

It will illustrate which parts of the airframe are less sensitive too (vis a vis powerplant choice)....detailed design can commence there along with the design and research intensive components they hold. Those will effectively plug and play into any larger detailed design downroad.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Does tf 6000 really exist? Or is it just a speculation? Apart from this forum, I have not read anything about it. When we will be able to see it you think friends?

Good question!
let me reply with another question;
Why would you obtain a patent of TF6000 engine if you weren’t going to produce one?

 

[Siper>MMU]

TF6000 exists, at least a TEI personell told me the design purpose of it.

 

[Osman]

For mius?

 

[mulj]

I have impression that Kale will become more significant engines developer then TEI due ownership structure.

 

[Hexciter]

KaleArge will develop a turbofan engine!

General Manager Cüneyt Kenger:
"As Kale Arge, while we care about focusing on properly carrying out 4 different turbojet projects at the same time, developing a turbofan engine is both on our roadmap and in our hearts."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1521791340849287168

 

[Lool]

KaleArge will develop a turbofan engine!

General Manager Cüneyt Kenger:
"As Kale Arge, while we care about focusing on properly carrying out 4 different turbojet projects at the same time, developing a turbofan engine is both on our roadmap and in our hearts."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1521791340849287168

Isnt that a no-brainer considering that they made a partnership with Rolls Royce for the TFX engine? Or will the TFX engine be a turbojet variant?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Isnt that a no-brainer considering that they made a partnership with Rolls Royce for the TFX engine? Or will the TFX engine be a turbojet variant?

Tfx engine has to be a turbofan. Not turbojet. It should ideally be a variable by-pass turbofan. But that will take some time yet. May be in much later blocks.
Turbojets are inefficient at lower altitudes. But they perform more efficiently at very high altitudes. For planes like Concorde and SR71, turbojet engines are the natural choice. But for fighter planes it has to be turbofans.

 

[B.t.N]

Tfx engine has to be a turbofan. Not turbojet. It should ideally be a variable by-pass turbofan. But that will take some time yet. May be in much later blocks.
Turbojets are inefficient at lower altitudes. But they perform more efficiently at very high altitudes. For planes like Concorde and SR71, turbojet engines are the natural choice. But for fighter planes it has to be turbofans.

I have always thought a variable by-pass turbofan was relatively easier to attain, since it is a mechanical process to divide the air current, and the harder part to be the high-tech material (production and application) in use (esp. on fifth gen. engines). I would very much like to hear (at your convenience, of course) the difficulties in such an apllication…

 

[Oublious]

I hope that Aksit start the MMU engine project without be a part, if he manages a engine like that he still could sell it to third countries. Or it can work as backup engine, like Gurkan Okumus started G-40 missile project with no green light of SSB.

 

[Zafer]

I hope that Aksit start the MMU engine project without be a part, if he manages a engine like that he still could sell it to third countries. Or it can work as backup engine, like Gurkan Okumus started G-40 missile project with no green light of SSB.

They seem to have already done preliminary studies to find out if he can really make it. But starting an official development work is arguably too big a deal to go for without external budget allocation.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Probably currently the roadmap of the domestic turbofan engine project is being created by SSB. During these weeks the SSB delegation would visit RR and eventually partnership structure will be established between Turkish companies and RR.

Prior to RR's withdrawal from the tender, Kale-RR JV group was a competitor of TEI and TEI had previously offered to develop an engine from scratch and had determined average development period including certification to be 14 years. Now the engine project is being reconsidered and SSB doesn't want a risky roadmap. Rather than developing an engine from scratch and risking not being equivalent to the F110 in diameter, they are taking steps to co-develop a powerful turbofan core that can provide power in the 35000-40000lb range with a technological partner like RR. Therefore, the focus is on solving some of the issues that RR had question marks about. To satisfy the RR, as the first step, the shares of Trmotor, which undertook the design of the domestic engine project, were purchased by TAI and the design and development process of the domestic engine will likely be carried out in partnership with RR-Trmotor and Kale now. It is possible that SSB is planning to involve TEI in the mass production phase as well. That's why TEI wants to emphasize that they can design and develop this engine without the need for a foreign partner and Mr Akşit works that TEI can get more shares in this strategic project. This is my current reading about this subject.

 

[Oublious]

Probably currently the roadmap of the domestic turbofan engine project is being created by SSB. During these weeks the SSB delegation would visit RR and eventually partnership structure will be established between Turkish companies and RR.

Prior to RR's withdrawal from the tender, Kale-RR JV group was a competitor of TEI and TEI had previously offered to develop an engine from scratch and had determined average development period including certification to be 14 years. Now the engine project is being reconsidered and SSB doesn't want a risky roadmap. Rather than developing an engine from scratch and risking not being equivalent to the F110 in diameter, they are taking steps to co-develop a powerful turbofan core that can provide power in the 35000-40000lb range with a technological partner like RR. Therefore, the focus is on solving some of the issues that RR had question marks about. To satisfy the RR, as the first step, the shares of Trmotor, which undertook the design of the domestic engine project, were purchased by TAI and the design and development process of the domestic engine will likely be carried out in partnership with RR-Trmotor and Kale now. It is possible that SSB is planning to involve TEI in the mass production phase as well. That's why TEI wants to emphasize that they can design and develop this engine without the need for a foreign partner and Mr Akşit works that TEI can get more shares in this strategic project. This is my current reading about this subject.

they should compete Kale/RR with TEI.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Just a couple months ago I asked a TEI personell about PD170, he said tests are still going and current production Anka and Aksungur's still using foreign engine (for whose still thinks PD170 is in service!) . He also said PD170 with localised engine block is just assembled.

If the PD170 engine is not ready yet, what do they plan to put on the TB3 ? Assuming PD220 is also not ready ?

 

[Quasar]

Tfx engine has to be a turbofan. Not turbojet. It should ideally be a variable by-pass turbofan. But that will take some time yet. May be in much later blocks.
Turbojets are inefficient at lower altitudes. But they perform more efficiently at very high altitudes. For planes like Concorde and SR71, turbojet engines are the natural choice. But for fighter planes it has to be turbofans.

Befor anything else I guess KALE may/should go for a turbofan engine for Gezgin. Not may be in the early Gezgin since there is already an ongoing turbojet project for Gezgin but I am almost certain that eventually Gezgin will have a turbofan engine, since as you stated very correctly ''Turbojets are inefficient at lower altitudes'' and gezgin will be a terrain hugging long range cruise missile. It is safe to assume that KALE will come up with a cheap simple turbofan engine for Gezgin at some point. Ok turbofan engine for ''LONG RANGE'' cruise missile is may be not the norm but the most efficent and logical solution.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Befor anything else I guess KALE may/should go for a turbofan engine for Gezgin. Not may be in the early Gezgin since there is already an ongoing turbojet project for Gezgin but I am almost certain that eventually Gezgin will have a turbofan engine, since as you stated very correctly ''Turbojets are inefficient at lower altitudes'' and gezgin will be a terrain hugging long range cruise missile. It is safe to assume that KALE will come up with a cheap simple turbofan engine for Gezgin at some point. Ok turbofan engine for ''LONG RANGE'' cruise missile is may be not the norm but the most efficent and logical solution.

If you are aiming for a 2500km range cruise missile, a turbofan engine is the logical choice. But if your missile is going to travel around 800-1200km, then a turbojet will also suffice. These engines are expendable engines. So they need to be cheap. Turbojets are a lot cheaper than turbofans. French Scalp naval cruise missile travels well over 1000km with a turbojet engine.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I have always thought a variable by-pass turbofan was relatively easier to attain, since it is a mechanical process to divide the air current, and the harder part to be the high-tech material (production and application) in use (esp. on fifth gen. engines). I would very much like to hear (at your convenience, of course) the difficulties in such an apllication…

An engine operates most efficiently when the exit velocity closely matches the speed of the airframe. Hence all current engines are optimised and only operate at moderate efficiency.
Technically, adding a new flow duct that operates as and when the bypass ratio needs to be altered to give the best efficiency does not give the intended result. But more elaborate addition of a fan structure is needed. This will mean finding space in an already constricted nacelle structure.
This is mainly due to the fact that in a variable bypass engine set up the compressor section and the turbine section will have to be redesigned. The bypass fan with multiple bypass fan blades is mated to a low-pressure shaft segment. A second low-pressure shaft segment includes a low-pressure compressor and a low-pressure turbine to which it is connected. Engine also includes a clutch, coupled between the two low-pressure shaft segments, and is configured to selectively couple and decouple the two low-pressure shaft segments. It is not a simple open a valve when needed or close it when it is not.
Tempest engine probably will be a variable bypass engine.

Technology for Innovative Entrepreneurs & Businesses | TechLink

techlinkcenter.org

 

[Yasar_TR]

Science fiction becoming reality!
A manned/unmanned plane that can reach anywhere on earth within an hour.
A turbojet engine will help the plane take off and reach Mach 3 speeds. Then the ramjet takes over and allows the plane to achieve close to mach6 speeds (low hypersonic) for a few minutes.

But with the help of the DMRJ (Dual Mode Ram Jet) the flow of air thorugh the combustion chamber becomes supersonic and the scramjet kicks in. Theoretically this could give up to 14500 miles per hour speed (18 Mach) to the plane.
Chinese are so worried of this tech becoming real that they have allocated a satellite to follow the development of this plane.
If and when this becomes operational the air warfare will become a totally different ball game. Slowly and gradually but definitely we are advancing towards space wars.
This also makes it so much more important the work being carried out by Tubitak Sage, on Ramjet and Scramjet technologies.

Hypersonic SR72 and the Trijet engine | NextBigFuture.com

There are some more details about the Lockheed Mach 6 hypersonic plane.

www.nextbigfuture.com

Boeing Unveils Hypersonic ‘Son-Of-Blackbird’ Contender |

Boeing Unveils Hypersonic ‘Son-Of-Blackbird’ Contender Continue reading →

www.aerospacengineering.net

 

[TheInsider]

I think we should kick start dual-mode engine projects with an aim to reach 4+mach on unmanned systems. This can be done with existing turbofan/turbojet and ramjet technologies. Hypersonic is a really hard nut to crack we should go for high supersonic as a realistic target.