Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Gary

Experienced member
Messages
7,360
Reactions
21 11,979
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
I'll once again engage in your whataboutism. Billy Mitchell was born in 1879, Giulio Douhet in 1869. Both men died even before WWII. This is who you look to for guidance? The world has since moved on. Of the four wars you listed only two involved what you call the hypocritical West, yet coincidentally both of your examples prove the opposite point:

1. Gulf War air campaign - 1 month
10,000–12,000 Iraqi military killed
2,000–3,000 Iraqi civilians killed

2. Operation Allied Force (Kosovo War) - 2 months
1000 Serb military killed
Human Rights Watch estimate: 489–528 civilians
Yugoslav estimate: 1,200–2,000 civilians killed

So what terrorizing are you talking about? In Mariupol alone, which had a pre-war population of 450,000, some estimates of civilians killed go as high as 100,000 (Timothy Snyder from Yale), but even conservative estimates are over 20,000.

You've just made your first wrong move, but I'll address this in the geopolitical thread. Because of the constant whinning.

Wait
 

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,775
Reactions
16 19,850
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
Dear members, everyone can express their opinion freely. even if it contradicts your ideas.
 

Dmitry

Committed member
Ukraine Correspondent
Messages
239
Reactions
4 841
Nation of residence
Ukraine
Nation of origin
Ukraine
THE THIRD ASSAULT BRIGADE ASSAULTS THE OCCUPIERS IN BAHMUT

Very interesting moments in the video: the drone operator fully controls the movement, indicates and corrects where to throw grenades and notifies the location of the enemy

 

GoatsMilk

Experienced member
Messages
3,328
Reactions
9 8,737
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
I'll once again engage in your whataboutism. Billy Mitchell was born in 1879, Giulio Douhet in 1869. Both men died even before WWII. This is who you look to for guidance? The world has since moved on. Of the four wars you listed only two involved what you call the hypocritical West, yet coincidentally both of your examples prove the opposite point:

1. Gulf War air campaign - 1 month
10,000–12,000 Iraqi military killed
2,000–3,000 Iraqi civilians killed

2. Operation Allied Force (Kosovo War) - 2 months
1000 Serb military killed
Human Rights Watch estimate: 489–528 civilians
Yugoslav estimate: 1,200–2,000 civilians killed

So what terrorizing are you talking about? In Mariupol alone, which had a pre-war population of 450,000, some estimates of civilians killed go as high as 100,000 (Timothy Snyder from Yale), but even conservative estimates are over 20,000.

His argument was misplaced.

For me or any other individual or non state actor to call the Russian operations acts of terrorism is quite reasonable.

I presume he came at it from the perspective that the western governments calling Russia a terrorist state was hypocritical and to a degree he has a point. But that point has nothing to do with a Turkish poster or me, or you calling Russian acts terrorism, because they are evil, despicable terrorist actions.

Many of us have lived through wars that the UK, USA, France engaged in together based on complete lies and then when they went in they turned nations upside down, iraq, afghanistan and libya are recent examples. We never got the same scale of outrage against these nations that we get against Russia. And none of these wars were about freedom or democracy, they were about power, control and pillage.

As a Turkish person living in england, the english because of their media see erdogan as some terrible despot dictator, but if we take the last 50 years of geopolitical adventurism, France and England have been far more deadly and destructive then Turkiye has been. But these countries are presented as beacons of the free world. We don't perceive england or france to be as dangerous as Turkiye, but they have been and continue to be.

Anyway long story short it doesnt matter if the entire world does the same thing in war, its still evil terroristic bullshit. Its not argument to claim because other nations have done similar things in history, that today what Russia does is justified.
 

contricusc

Committed member
Messages
297
Reactions
1 417
Nation of residence
Panama
Nation of origin
Romania
As a Turkish person living in england, the english because of their media see erdogan as some terrible despot dictator, but if we take the last 50 years of geopolitical adventurism, France and England have been far more deadly and destructive then Turkiye has been. But these countries are presented as beacons of the free world. We don't perceive england or france to be as dangerous as Turkiye, but they have been and continue to be.

I think this has to do with incendiary statements made by Erdogan, such as coming in one night and invading a Greek island. Such statements create the impression of a dangerous leader, and in extension country.

While in the past 50 years the UK and France have been involved in more conflicts than Turkey, the perception of how dangerous a country is rests on the political positions and actions of the very recent leaders. You no longer have Tony Blair as a prime minister in UK, and the more recent leaders (Sunak, Johnson, Cameron) have not been involved in military adventurism or threatening declarations.

This is the big advantage of democracies that change leaders frequently. Old leaders no longer have any power and when they are gone, their bad legacy no longer taints the country. A democratic country has fresh starts every few years when it comes to its leadership, so it holds less baggage than dictatorships that have the same leaders for decades.
 

Gary

Experienced member
Messages
7,360
Reactions
21 11,979
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
His argument was misplaced.

For me or any other individual or non state actor to call the Russian operations acts of terrorism is quite reasonable.

I presume he came at it from the perspective that the western governments calling Russia a terrorist state was hypocritical and to a degree he has a point. But that point has nothing to do with a Turkish poster or me, or you calling Russian acts terrorism, because they are evil, despicable terrorist actions.

Many of us have lived through wars that the UK, USA, France engaged in together based on complete lies and then when they went in they turned nations upside down, iraq, afghanistan and libya are recent examples. We never got the same scale of outrage against these nations that we get against Russia. And none of these wars were about freedom or democracy, they were about power, control and pillage.

As a Turkish person living in england, the english because of their media see erdogan as some terrible despot dictator, but if we take the last 50 years of geopolitical adventurism, France and England have been far more deadly and destructive then Turkiye has been. But these countries are presented as beacons of the free world. We don't perceive england or france to be as dangerous as Turkiye, but they have been and continue to be.

Anyway long story short it doesnt matter if the entire world does the same thing in war, its still evil terroristic bullshit. Its not argument to claim because other nations have done similar things in history, that today what Russia does is justified.

Ahh here comes the coward who can't even press the reply button. misplaced ? Which part is misplaced ? The only reason you and your brigade calls it terrorism is the fact that you have a particular disdain for that country. If your country or any of the country you sympathize with does the same, that will not be a problem.

The thing is the very manual of airpower and its applications are derived from people's like Douhet and Mitchells thought, the very basic standard of which your country air force and every other are built upon. Simply because when airpower was introduced, due to technical limitaitions unless you're US, UK, France , Italy and Germany every other country is mostly watchers and onlookers, that means the science of airpower itself is based on these people thoughts and the country which they served and other simply adopted it. Yes its very much an attack on civilian and intentional, but that's war and that's how everybody conducts one. Irrelevant of what color the country is.

Russia doing it is simply them and their effort of following this manual, simple as that. If following that manual is terrorism, then every air force in existence are terroristic in nature,You don't like that ? that's your problem pal.
 
Last edited:

Ecderha

Experienced member
Messages
4,385
Reactions
4 7,600
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
The Kerch Bridge connecting russia with ocupaied Crimea is only 5 years old .
It is aligns with the quality we are used to see from russian origin
Corrupt regime and incompetent managers whose primary skill is Rear-Rissing while selling half of the materials on the Black Market.
Result is that many bridge legs are already with cracks

 

Relic

Contributor
Canada Correspondent
Messages
1,184
Reactions
10 2,068
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
Canada
USA 🇺🇸 has purchased an undisclosed number of Gepard anti-aircraft systems from Jordan 🇯🇴. The systems formerly belonged to the Dutch, who sold 60 of them to the Jordainians. The contract value is $118 million USD and is thought be for between 40-60 of the units.


As much as purchases such as these are helpful, especially against drones, I'd rather see countries like Canada 🇨🇦, who can afford such a purchase, but who don't have a ton of our own military supplies to spare, purchase these items from 3rd parties, allowing the United States to focus their support on thr key items that only they have an abundance of. For example, for $118 milli8lon USD, USA could have probably sent an additional 40 Bradley M2 ODS IFVs, including shipping costs and costs associated with training Ukrainians in Germany.
 
Last edited:

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,245
Reactions
5 17,697
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
Ahh here comes the coward who can't even press the reply button. misplaced ? Which part is misplaced ? The only reason you and your brigade calls it terrorism is the fact that you have a particular disdain for that country. If your country or any of the country you sympathize with does the same, that will not be a problem.

The thing is the very manual of airpower and its applications are derived from people's like Douhet and Mitchells thought, the very basic standard of which your country air force and every other are built upon. Simply because when airpower was introduced, due to technical limitaitions unless you're US, UK, France , Italy and Germany every other country is mostly watchers and onlookers, that means the science of airpower itself is based on these people thoughts and the country which they served and other simply adopted it. Yes its very much an attack on civilian and intentional, but that's war and that's how everybody conducts one. Irrelevant of what color the country is.

Russia doing it is simply them and their effort of following this manual, simple as that. If following that manual is terrorism, then every air force in existence are terroristic in nature,You don't like that ? that's your problem pal.

Modern Warfare itself actually blurred the line of combatants and non combatants. Treated both the same.

Not to say in Ancient times, Medieval times early modern period that civilians were not targeted as we can see in sieges that civilians were targeted to cause maximum carnage.

War is bloody and destructive and brings out the worst in people.

We always call the ancient or medieval times as barbaric because they use swords and spears while we have bombs that can kill hundreds to millions in one go.
 

Relic

Contributor
Canada Correspondent
Messages
1,184
Reactions
10 2,068
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
Canada
New USA 🇺🇸 defense package for Ukraine has been announced. The value of the package is in excess of $300 million USD. Contents of the package include the following...

- Additional Avenger anti-aircraft systems.
- Additional PAC 2/3 Patriot air defense missiles.
- Additional AIM-7 Sea Sparrow missiles for BUK air defense systems.
- Additional Kamikaze drones.
- Additional Stinger anti-aircraft systems.
- Additional GMRLS for HIMARS
- Additional 155mm artillery shells.
- Additional 105mm artillery shells.
- Additional 105mm tank rounds.
- Additional ZUNI aircraft rockets.
- Additional AT-4 anti armor rockets.
- Additional Aerial drone munitions.
- Additional 30 million rounds of small arms ammunition.
- Demolition munitions for obstacle clearing.
- Night vision devices.
- Spare parts, generators and equipment.

 

Mailman

Active member
Messages
99
Reactions
183
Nation of residence
Estonia
Nation of origin
Estonia
Ahh here comes the coward who can't even press the reply button. misplaced ? Which part is misplaced ? The only reason you and your brigade calls it terrorism is the fact that you have a particular disdain for that country. If your country or any of the country you sympathize with does the same, that will not be a problem.

The thing is the very manual of airpower and its applications are derived from people's like Douhet and Mitchells thought, the very basic standard of which your country air force and every other are built upon. Simply because when airpower was introduced, due to technical limitaitions unless you're US, UK, France , Italy and Germany every other country is mostly watchers and onlookers, that means the science of airpower itself is based on these people thoughts and the country which they served and other simply adopted it. Yes its very much an attack on civilian and intentional, but that's war and that's how everybody conducts one. Irrelevant of what color the country is.

Russia doing it is simply them and their effort of following this manual, simple as that. If following that manual is terrorism, then every air force in existence are terroristic in nature,You don't like that ? that's your problem pal.
Is there a possibility for you, Gary, that world has changed during last centuries? Mongols looted and pillaged greatly in Europe and Russia 800 years ago, but does this really justify the means and methods used today by Russia in Ukraine?
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,245
Reactions
5 17,697
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
Is there a possibility for you, Gary, that world has changed during last centuries? Mongols looted and pillaged greatly in Europe and Russia 800 years ago, but does this really justify the means and methods used today by Russia in Ukraine?

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Boundaries shift, new players step in; but power always finds a place to rest its head.
 

Dmitry

Committed member
Ukraine Correspondent
Messages
239
Reactions
4 841
Nation of residence
Ukraine
Nation of origin
Ukraine
Russian blogger tells how Russian propaganda destroys families. Since 2014, I have heard many stories about quarrels in Russian families, as well as a break in relations between relatives in Ukraine and Russia. In 2022, this problem has become even more urgent.

 

GoatsMilk

Experienced member
Messages
3,328
Reactions
9 8,737
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Do you actually read anything anyone writes

yeah it just seems to me like a lack of comprehension skills. The completely unrelated tangent of pointing out how other nations and other empires have done similar acts has no bearing whatsoever on what i was saying. Its completely irrelevant.

Now if they want to argue with each other over that, that's fine, but its got nothing whatsoever to do with what i was saying. Absolutely nothing.

Whether americans, english, french, turks, iranians, indians, chinese drop bombs on civilians or rape their citizens, its evil terroristic shit. Now even if all of them do it in war, its still evil and morally wrong.

Like i said in the past as much as i'm a proud Turk, you can never really ever justify imperialism or empire. But that topic is too big to discuss here. But this quote generally sums up my personal opinion on war.

"Unless a nation's life faces peril, war is murder." MK Ataturk.

Let alone the acts of genocide, rape, torture, abduction of children etc, its all evil and morally corrupt. And when it comes to such things Russia is near the top.
 
Last edited:

Gary

Experienced member
Messages
7,360
Reactions
21 11,979
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Modern Warfare itself actually blurred the line of combatants and non combatants. Treated both the same.

Not to say in Ancient times, Medieval times early modern period that civilians were not targeted as we can see in sieges that civilians were targeted to cause maximum carnage.

War is bloody and destructive and brings out the worst in people.

We always call the ancient or medieval times as barbaric because they use swords and spears while we have bombs that can kill hundreds to millions in one go.
I see you understand what this is all about.

The gist of these people's argument is always 'hey but it happens in X timeframe, we're no longer in Y timeframe, it is no longer acceptable'. Them equate everything to the contemporary, masking it as 'modern times'.

These people are the kind of people that finds itself mega shocked that slavery existed and continue to exists. These are the very same people that when they saw the statue of colonialists like Colombus, instead of understanding what is the situation of the world when Colombus first colonialize America's, decide to torn it up. Yes he's pretty much a savage, but then the world is pretty much full of savages at the time of his living.

Times comes and pass by, but the basic of human needs remained the same, the need to multiply, the need to grow and expand, the need to provide etc. Human doesn't stop having sex just because sex itself comes from the human being after all right ?

War is the best medium/breeding ground of radicalism and extreme conduct, yet for these poobah's they masked their disdain for a particular country by putting their heads in the sand, calling it barbaric for the current times, yet if they EVER find once that their country is doing the same, they will find all sorts of justifications to do so. I have been in multiple war thread in this forum and I know what people's opinions are in regards to war, and depends who is the party of war they're either angels preaching rights or just a bunch of cheerleaders cheering for more destruction.

So yes, you're pretty much right with the examples of the sword and the bomb. Tools are no way to distract the intent. in the mid century tehy use catapult to torn walls added with siege's to cripple the population, in today's world they use bombers and all sorts of methods including sanctions to cripple the will of the opposing population. Like we saw with Russia wrt to Ukraine, and the West wrt to Russia.

Simple as that, but then not all people understand or willing to understand, because they're so full of ignorance masked behind whatever excuse they invent😉
 
Last edited:

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom