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NEKO

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Assume can be like that, which most likely not, it will only permissible to deter PRC. Else than that, especially with anti-western worldview, Indonesian military build up will be seen as a potential threat by US, Japan, Australia etc
India have AC, Australia have mini AC, China have AC, Japan have mini AC, Korea wants AC, why can't Indonesia?

Must we keep sucking to the west? Can't we stand for our own interest?

For Indonesia its Indonesia First.
 

schuimpjes

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Can't we stand for our own interest?

For Indonesia its Indonesia First.
What is the interest?

If the people are sympathetic with Iranian Ayatollah or other malign actors just because they are ‘with Palestine’, aren’t that threatening?

Since before Reformasi even, support toward Saddam Hussein were high even though he invaded Kuwait.

What is the interest? Be clear with that at first
 

Gary

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What is the interest?

If the people are sympathetic with Iranian Ayatollah or other malign actors just because they are ‘with Palestine’, aren’t that threatening?

Since before Reformasi even, support toward Saddam Hussein were high even though he invaded Kuwait.

What is the interest? Be clear with that at first

And it's that wrong? I don't see anything bad from Iran that the West hasn't done or excel in it themselves.

Just because most Indonesian simply doesn't agree with the West doesn't mean that we must limit potential.

But then again for Western simps like you. It's prolly better for Indonesia to be put on the backfoot until Indonesians satisfy the ideological standard of the West.

And this is the same guy who accused Muslims of being foreign agent, while proudly posting Western interference in the country. LOL Without us this country wouldn't exist.
 
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NEKO

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If the people are sympathetic with Iranian Ayatollah or other malign actors just because they are ‘with Palestine’, aren’t that threatening?
How come strengthening Indonesia got anything to do with Iran or Israel-Palestine issues?

I don't give a damn about Iran.

Is it only ok for Indonesia to be stronger only if Indonesia is slave to the west?

As for AC itself, i think its still too soon for us for now, but would be good to have in the future.
 

schuimpjes

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How come strengthening Indonesia got anything to do with Iran or Israel-Palestine issues?

I don't give a damn about Iran.
Hey, it’s not about Iran or Palestine itself, but other tendencies that usually follows that sympathies.

At least @Gary is better by more straightforward than you.
 

Gary

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Hey, it’s not about Iran or Palestine itself, but other tendencies that usually follows that sympathies.

At least @Gary is better by more straightforward than you.

Let me even put it straighter than ever. What you meant is Islam. Simply put Indonesia's majority Muslim will always be at odds with whatever the West came up with in the past, currently and increasingly in the future and for you, it is imperative for the Muslims to be transformed Western style so that we could play buddy-buddy with the likes of the US in spreading 'liberal democracy' all over the world,. The Muslims you find here are not the ideal Muslims .ie the kind of 'Muslim's that supported Zionism, the kinds of Muslims that would make Snouck Hurgronje proud by going against the teachings of its religion, the kind of Muslims that will put it's weight to help people in need like in Palestine and not like the 'Muslim' of Azerbaijan that proudly wave the flag of Israel in Central Baku.

This is what you fear, in fact I could readily tell that you would support the U.S invading this country if Islamist ever find itself in power.
 

schuimpjes

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Let me even put it straighter than ever. What you meant is Islam. Simply put Indonesia's majority Muslim will always be at odds with whatever the West came up with in the past, currently and increasingly in the future and for you, it is imperative for the Muslims to be transformed Western style so that we could play buddy-buddy with the likes of the US in spreading 'liberal democracy' all over the world,. The Muslims you find here are not the ideal Muslims .ie the kind of 'Muslim's that supported Zionism, the kinds of Muslims that would make Snouck Hurgronje proud by going against the teachings of its religion, the kind of Muslims that will put it's weight to help people in need like in Palestine and not like the 'Muslim' of Azerbaijan that proudly wave the flag of Israel in Central Baku.

This is what you fear, in fact I could readily tell that you would support the U.S invading this country if Islamist ever find itself in power.
Can’t be naive, Indonesia geopolitically part of Muslim World with all of its tendencies. However anyone tries to hide that, someone gonna came up with it.

More dangerous, sometimes the naïveté itself that destroy who not in favor of it
 

NEKO

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Hey, it’s not about Iran or Palestine itself, but other tendencies that usually follows that sympathies.

At least @Gary is better by more straightforward than you.
Yeah sure.

How is Israel? Many people here hates your country tho, many of them also has vile dream of massacre all the Jews there.
I can guarantee you, if some anti-semitic shits are flying at you in Indonesian forum here, I'll help you to put them to dirt.
Btw. Its time for you to put @Gary to dirt, because he's been too anti Israel.
 

Gary

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Can’t be naive, Indonesia geopolitically part of Muslim World with all of its tendencies. However anyone tries to hide that, someone gonna came up with it.

More dangerous, sometimes the naïveté itself that destroy who not in favor of it

Yes that's true, the fact that we has yet to recognize Israel, speaks volume. Had it been that easy than Soeharto would've done it loooooooong time ago. The weight of Muslims simply deterred even the mightiest of generals.

There will be no such thing as 100% integration with the West, we are simply different, built different, see things differently and have very different priorities. We will take what's best from them, learn when it suits us, and that's it. You can kiss goodbye to a future where we could sing kombayaa with Israel. Our relationship with the West is transactional.

We have learned what the Turks has done with abandoning their religion (and still get rejected by the West) we wouldn't want to repeat such mistake.
 

schuimpjes

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Had it been that easy than Soeharto would've done it loooooooong time ago. The weight of Muslims simply deterred even the mightiest of generals.
Not just that actually tho, but also about other Muslim World votes in UNGA about East Timor. There were fear that Indonesia lost its support. We were no better than Muslim World’s enemy Israel about it. Same case, occupation.

Just about reported A-4 from Israel, Iranian started to against Indonesia for East Timor in UNGA Resolution about it in 1979, yes, another variable of ‘79 revolution must be included, different Iranian regime.
There will be no such thing as 100% integration with the West, we are simply different, built different, see things differently and have very different priorities. We will take what's best from them, learn when it suits us, and that's it. You can kiss goodbye to a future where we could sing kombayaa with Israel. Our relationship with the West is transactional.
At least not threatening, but impossible.
 

Gary

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Not just that actually tho, but also about other Muslim World votes in UNGA about East Timor. There were fear that Indonesia lost its support. We were no better than Muslim World’s enemy Israel about it. Same case, occupation.

Just about reported A-4 from Israel, Iranian started to against Indonesia for East Timor in UNGA Resolution about it in 1979, yes, another variable of ‘79 revolution must be included, different Iranian regime.

At least not threatening, but impossible.

Your (at best) mediocre English is sometimes hard to decrypt, but if you're implying that Muslims in Indonesia which are mostly Sunnis are such a big fan of Shia Iran, then you're fooling yourself. Many of Indonesians are getting sympathetic to Iran is because the fact that it's them who supplied Palestinian resistance with weapons, something that is missing from the usual local champion Saudi Arabia and Turkiye. Whatever happens in '76 is irrelevant, Israel could've openly support us and we will still hate them.

The local chapter of Zionist wishes that we will accept their occupation of Quds, will never happen, we're merely waiting time. The Jews has made such an enmity in the Islamic world, that Shiite and Sunnis actually pause their quarell. And we will treat their local ally the same way.
 

schuimpjes

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Your (at best) mediocre English is sometimes hard to decrypt,
Yes, it is, I admit lol
but if you're implying that Muslims in Indonesia which are mostly Sunnis are such a big fan of Shia Iran, then you're fooling yourself. Many of Indonesians are getting sympathetic to Iran is because the fact that it's them who supplied Palestinian resistance with weapons
Read it again
If the people are sympathetic with Iranian Ayatollah or other malign actors just because they are ‘with Palestine’, aren’t that threatening?
“Or other malign actors just because they are ‘with Palestine’.”

I’m not talking specific creed of Sunni or Shia only. Don’t people understand that Al-Wala wal Bara don’t allow them to be with Mushrikeen Shia. This doctrine of ‘who’s friend who’s enemy and befriend or not with them’ the one that make Islamic State less flexible.
 

Gary

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Yes, it is, I admit lol

Well the Hasbara need to up the ante, next time they post it in LinkedIn please make it a requirement to have at least TOEFL of 550 or IELTS band 7.
Read it again

“Or other malign actors just because they are ‘with Palestine’.”

There's no such thing as malign actor. Iran is a malign actor for the U.S/Israel not for us, it's their problem not ours.

Anything bad the likes of Iran, Russia did, the West has did it as well, if not excel it.

Maybe this is why Indonesia, despite being independent for almost 8 decades. Has yet to figure out how to produce long range missiles, attack drones and all those fancy stuff. Because we are the follower not a leader or challenger to the so called 'rules based' order
 

schuimpjes

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Well the Hasbara need to up the ante, next time they post it in LinkedIn please make it a requirement to have at least TOEFL of 550 or IELTS band 7.
Holy shit lol. Meet me at real life at least before accusing people of being paid. When?

Nuduh mah gampang, mang, tinggal sebut atau nunjuk. Tanpa bukti apa artinya? Sama kayak Tuhan yang gak ada buktinya, entah ada apa gak, kalo ada pun entah Tuhan yang mana, tapi deterrent nya tetep ditakuti.

Minimal bukti, bukti, bukti
Because we are the follower not a leader
What ideas Indonesia gonna bring? CONEFO?
 

NEKO

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Tanpa bukti apa artinya? Sama kayak Tuhan yang gak ada buktinya, entah ada apa gak, kalo ada pun entah Tuhan yang mana, tapi deterrent nya tetep ditakuti.
This answer lots of questions in my head.
 

Gary

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What ideas Indonesia gonna bring? CONEFO?
Even at a relatively young age of 20. The leaders at the time understand that the UN is at their very core :Western.

And Indonesia, a non-Western country from inception is not destined to be a UN member forever, rather it must come up with a challenger to the UN, that accommodate the needs and vision of non white country.

The fall of this country from a challenger to a mere followers is a tragedy that's worth a movie.

Meanwhile theocracies the likes of Iran, who built their country on the foundation of rejection of the West now could boast missiles that penetrated Israelis vaunted Arrow system. Because the political stance as a challenger compel them to be self sufficient, unlike Indonesia.


One example where theocracies>>democracies
 

Gary

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About what? How dare against Islam I am without fear?

You're thinking too much about yourself. In this country, Islamophobe could express their hatred towards Islam and gets away with it. You're not brave at all, because you know nothing will happen to you.


You want to see bravery? When I post my refutation of democracy, I basically put myself in danger, knowing full well who runs the show behind the scene

Stop thinking too high about yourself
 

schuimpjes

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The leaders at the time understand that the UN is at their very core :Western.
It’s about 5 veto powers. Whatever crime you do, if 1, only need 1, veto power against the resolution that pointed at you, you’re good.

ICC? That just delusional court without enforcement capabilities. Its existence not even from UN.
 

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