What's behind Pakistan's rumoured purchase of Chinese fighter jets?

Dalit

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Islamabad’s rival in New Delhi has already acquired the French Rafale jets and the Chinese J10-C jets are viewed as a direct response to the Indian acquisition.

which are Beijing's most modern and heaviest warplanes equipped with the most advanced technology. ( Ng Han Guan / AP Archive )
Pakistan and India, have been locked in various disputes, primarily on the status of Kashmir, since the two countries gained their independence from the British in 1947.

The two have fought four wars, costing tens of thousands of lives, and constant border skirmishes force a tense political atmosphere to linger between the two states.

Continuing tensions have pushed Pakistan to purchase Chinese J-10C fighter jets, according to Muhammad Athar Javed, a defence analyst and the Director General of Pakistan House, a Denmark/Pakistan-based think tank on international affairs, whose sources in the Pakistani government confirmed Islamabad’s procurement of the warplanes.

While there is no official confirmation from Islamabad, Ejaz Haider, a Pakistani military analyst, also says that “the purchase has been made and the first batch will fly on 23rd March, which is Pakistan's Republic Day,” according to multiple reports.

The primary threat against Pakistan comes from India, resulting in wars and conflicts, says Haider, reminding us that the most recent escalation happened in Feb 2019 “when India aggressed against Pakistan.”

Why now?

“India operates the French Rafale and the capability is boosted by the Russian S-400 A2-AD system. As a result, that threat has to be tackled not just in relation to intentions but also capabilities. Pakistan cannot afford to allow major asymmetries in relation to its adversary,” Haider tells TRT World, explaining why Pakistan is making the purchase.

In July, the Indian defence ministry announced its purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France. Interestingly, Pakistan will also procure 36 warplanes from China, suggesting it’s a direct retaliation against New Delhi’s move.

“Pakistan’s F-16 fighters are aging already and Pakistan’s own JF-17 Thunder is in the making. We actually needed to create a deterrent to face India’s purchase of Dassault Rafale,” Javed tells TRT World.

an air show in Karachi, February 27, 2020.(Reuters Archive)
While Pakistanis cannot create a direct symmetry with the Indians considering the size of New Delhi’s military, Islamabad wants to ensure with the purchase of Chinese jets that it can compete in near-equal terms, according to Javed.

“The Pakistan air force is one of the top air forces in the world,” he says.

Haider agrees with that assessment.

“PAF is a professional air force which, despite constrained resources, has performed brilliantly against the Indian Air Force. The February conflict proved that once again. That said, even top-shelf human resource and training requires state-of-the-art platforms,” he says.

Why Chinese jets?

China is a close ally of Pakistan due to various clashing points between Beijing and New Delhi across South Asia as Asia’s two major powers compete with each other to secure their political and economic interests in the strategically vital region.

This equation means Pakistan and China share plenty of common ground on a number of issues, developing strategic ties and increasing military cooperation. But there are also other reasons for Pakistan’s purchase of Chinese jets.

“Pakistan Air Force needs a 4.5 generation multirole fighter. European fighters are very expensive and the US is not an option because of suspension of security assistance with Islamabad, despite Pakistan being nominally a Non-Nato Ally,” Haider says.

“Pakistan faces remarkable sanctions from the US despite its purchase of F-16s,” Javed says. As a result, like Turkiye, Pakistan has moved to create indigenous solutions to develop its military hardware in the face of US opposition, he says.

Even operating F-16s is problematic for Pakistan because Washington places restrictive conditions on their use, Javed says. There are also problems related to its repair process, he adds. China does not usually place conditions on the weapons it sells to other countries.

'Iron brothers'

Javed says increasing partnership between China and Pakistan led some to call the two countries “iron brothers”.

The ongoing PAC JF-17 Thunder project, which aims to produce a lightweight, single-engine, fourth-generation multirole combat aircraft, is one of the products of this iron brotherhood. The Chinese name of the joint project is Xiaolong or 'Fierce Dragon'. The project is mainly crafted to replace Pakistan’s A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V combat aircraft.

But either the joint project or Pakistan’s purchase of Chinese J-10C fighters should not be exaggerated in the face of India’s recent armament, Javed says. “India is one of the top buyers of arms, according to various military sources. They are buying from anywhere in the world, including Russia,” he says.

While Washington was angered by Turkiye’s purchase of Russian S-400s, the US has not shown its wrath against India after the country bought the same air defense systems from Moscow.

“For Pakistan, the J-10C model is important,” Javed says, referring to the aircraft’s technologically advanced features.

But it does not mean Pakistan is leaving the Western alliance, he adds, saying it is Pakistan's right to defend itself.

Javed also notes that Pakistan’s purchase of Chinese jets does not mean that it wants war with India. “We want to be friends with India,” he says, referring to Pakistan’s long efforts to create “a system of communication” with New Delhi.

But India’s illegal unilateral change of its constitution in regard to the political status of the internationally disputed region of Kashmir makes things worse, he argues.

Despite differences, all of the Pakistani establishment is still on the same page saying “Pakistan and India should work together,” Javed adds. “If we come together, most of the solutions are there.”

 

Dalit

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JF-17 block 3 and the J-10C are set to dethrone the US made F-16. Highly unlikely that PAF will be getting anymore F-16s from this point onwards.
 
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Bilal Khan(Quwa) 

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The J-10CE news shouldn't be a surprise.

In 2015, the PAF started looking for new fighters -- both new F-16s and another type. The team under ACM Sohail Aman had looked at the Su-35, Typhoon, Gripen and the J-10. The PAF told IHS Jane's in 2016 they're looking to acquire around 30-40 new fighters.

In 2017, ACM Sohail Aman straight-up said, "We need new fighters. We have Chinese and Russian options" to Bol Narratives.

In 2020, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan said that if the situation requires a new fighter, the PAF will pursue it.

Realistically, the PAF only had one viable option for its fighter requirement -- the J-10CE. So, it was a matter of 'when' and not 'if' (provided the PAF was still seeking an off-the-shelf fighter, which had been the case since 2015).

However, the reality of PAF fighter acquisitions is that it never adds a new platform unless it intended to build a fleet of 90+ units. This was the case with every fighter-type the PAF bought using national funds: Mirage III/5, F-6, F-16, F-7P, and JF-17. The money going into funding 90+ J-10CEs through the 2020s will come from abstract programs like Project AZM. IMO, the latter -- and the pursuit of an NGFA as a whole -- will roll into either TFX or J-35/J-21.
 

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Every country has a right to defend itself based on threat perception and availability of resources. India is always playing catch up with China and Pak is always playing catch up with India to maintain some kind of equilibrium.

No clue about the aircraft itself though. Is it reverse engineered from something Russian?
 

Dalit

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The J-10CE news shouldn't be a surprise.

In 2015, the PAF started looking for new fighters -- both new F-16s and another type. The team under ACM Sohail Aman had looked at the Su-35, Typhoon, Gripen and the J-10. The PAF told IHS Jane's in 2016 they're looking to acquire around 30-40 new fighters.

In 2017, ACM Sohail Aman straight-up said, "We need new fighters. We have Chinese and Russian options" to Bol Narratives.

In 2020, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan said that if the situation requires a new fighter, the PAF will pursue it.

Realistically, the PAF only had one viable option for its fighter requirement -- the J-10CE. So, it was a matter of 'when' and not 'if' (provided the PAF was still seeking an off-the-shelf fighter, which had been the case since 2015).

However, the reality of PAF fighter acquisitions is that it never adds a new platform unless it intended to build a fleet of 90+ units. This was the case with every fighter-type the PAF bought using national funds: Mirage III/5, F-6, F-16, F-7P, and JF-17. The money going into funding 90+ J-10CEs through the 2020s will come from abstract programs like Project AZM. IMO, the latter -- and the pursuit of an NGFA as a whole -- will roll into either TFX or J-35/J-21.

Regardless, superb news as PAF is finally realizing that waiting for additional F-16 is not an option anymore. Uncle Sam won't approve and that too is a blessing in disguise. PAF cannot afford to rely on sanction prone F-16s. The F-16 fanboys must accept the new reality. The F-16 era is over. US footprint in Pakistan through political, economic and military deception is swiftly coming to an end. As you rightly claim, after J-10C and perhaps other subsequent versions of the same fighter PAF is getting a 5th gen fighter through Azm. The current F-16 fleet will be worn out and discarded.
 
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Zapper

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No clue about the aircraft itself though. Is it reverse engineered from something Russian?
Chegdu's original proposal of the J-10 is based on it's cancelled J-9 program which in turn is based on Saab's 37 Viggen. After the fall of Soviet Union, the chinese hired Russian engineers to build most of their weapons systems which is why you see a ton of similarities between chinese & Russian platforms

For the J-10 in particular, it has been built with Russian & Israeli assistance with a ton of tech borrowed from the cancelled Israeli "Lavi" project
 

Kaptaan

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For the J-10 in particular, it has been built with Russian & Israeli assistance with a ton of tech borrowed from the cancelled Israeli "Lavi" project
If you go back it's possible to trace US, European and Russian jet fighters to reverse enginered German jet fighters of WW2, The post war Russian Migs and American Sabres were rip off of German designs and often even used captured German engineers.

This is how technology evolves. You can only invent it once, after that it just sort of refines through decades. So no need for grinding that axe "reverse, reverse" as is want of your people just because it's Chinks doing it.

F-16 fighters
These fighters still pack a punch and will continue to play a very important role in PAF. They are cost effective as PAF has long learned how to service and keep them flying. Turkey can be depended on to handle more complex work. The JF-17 is a great fighter but it just does the job of filling out the line squadrons.

Chinese J10-C jets
Great news. These are needed to provide the tip to spear any future head shakers crossing the border to sample cup of fine Pakistan chai.
 

Gary

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If you go back it's possible to trace US, European and Russian jet fighters to reverse enginered German jet fighters of WW2, The post war Russian Migs and American Sabres were rip off of German designs and often even used captured German engineers.
WRONG! both UK and US had already experimented with fighter jets while the war still rages on


What the Germans achieved is the first mass use of combat jets, not the inventor of jets themselves.
 

Jackdaws

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If you go back it's possible to trace US, European and Russian jet fighters to reverse enginered German jet fighters of WW2, The post war Russian Migs and American Sabres were rip off of German designs and often even used captured German engineers.

This is how technology evolves. You can only invent it once, after that it just sort of refines through decades. So no need for grinding that axe "reverse, reverse" as is want of your people just because it's Chinks doing it.


These fighters still pack a punch and will continue to play a very important role in PAF. They are cost effective as PAF has long learned how to service and keep them flying. Turkey can be depended on to handle more complex work. The JF-17 is a great fighter but it just does the job of filling out the line squadrons.


Great news. These are needed to provide the tip to spear any future head shakers crossing the border to sample cup of fine Pakistan chai.
What do you mean "your people"?
 

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Kaptaan

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Gessler

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What people aren't talking about is what this will mean for factors such as maintenance, serviceability, annual flight hours & sortie rate - all crucial factors.

In these aspects, the J-10CE with its Lyulka AL-31 is a definite downgrade compared to F-16 with GE/P&W engines.

A useful metric to gauge this is the engine's Time Between Overhaul (TBO) figure. That of AL-31FP/AL-41F1-S is roughly 1,000 hours (though older variants like AL-31FN are lower), WS-10 on other hand (improved version, I think called WS-10B) is about only 500 hours. Original WS-10 was only 300 hours. I believe that's part of the reason why PAF decided against switching to Chinese engines (WS-13) even on Block-III JF-17, instead sticking with RD-93 (700 hour TBO).

In comparison, the TBOs of most Western engines are considerably higher. GE F404 is between 2,000 & 3,000 hours. I'd think F100/F110 are similar. The discrepancy in terms of Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) of major components is also likely to be similar.

Sources for Chinese TBOs: https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/CASI/documents/Research/Infrastructure/CASI_Aeroengines 041520.pdf?ver=2020-04-22-133912-480

The above mentioned factors are going to hit PAF considerably in the coming decades. One way of at least partially making up for these limitations is to go for much larger numbers. But invariably that will mean much higher costs both upfront (for purchase) and over service life of said product (maintenance).

Qualitatively, in the above respects I'd think even the most modern J-10 is a step backwards compared to even a Block-50/52 F-16. And the ORBAT of PAF is going to have to change significantly taking these new realities into account.
 
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Dalit

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What people aren't talking about is what this will mean for factors such as maintenance, serviceability, annual flight hours & sortie rate - all crucial factors.

In these aspects, the J-10CE with its Lyulka AL-31 is a definite downgrade compared to F-16 with GE/P&W engines.

A useful metric to gauge this is the engine's Time Between Overhaul (TBO) figure. That of AL-31FP/AL-41F1-S is roughly 1,000 hours (though older variants like AL-31FN are lower), WS-10 on other hand (improved version, I think called WS-10B) is about only 500 hours. Original WS-10 was only 300 hours. I believe that's part of the reason why PAF decided against switching to Chinese engines (WS-13) even on Block-III JF-17, instead sticking with RD-93 (700 hour TBO).

In comparison, the TBOs of most Western engines are considerably higher. GE F404 is between 2,000 & 3,000 hours. I'd think F100/F110 are similar. The discrepancy in terms of Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) of major components is also likely to be similar.

Sources for Chinese TBOs: https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/CASI/documents/Research/Infrastructure/CASI_Aeroengines 041520.pdf?ver=2020-04-22-133912-480

The above mentioned factors are going to hit PAF considerably in the coming decades. One way of at least partially making up for these limitations is to go for much larger numbers. But invariably that will mean much higher costs both upfront (for purchase) and over service life of said product (maintenance).

Qualitatively, in the above respects I'd think even the most modern J-10 is a step backwards compared to even a Block-50/52 F-16. And the ORBAT of PAF is going to have to change significantly taking these new realities into account.

Says an Indian whose air force is buying fighters right and left from every nook and corner. Have you ever had a look at the IAF that is already dealing with a logistical nightmare.

You don't worry about PAF. It is a professional air force that knows how to tackle IAF. This was demonstrated very vividly recently when Abhinandan had to be rescued by the Americans.
 

Dalit

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Chegdu's original proposal of the J-10 is based on it's cancelled J-9 program which in turn is based on Saab's 37 Viggen. After the fall of Soviet Union, the chinese hired Russian engineers to build most of their weapons systems which is why you see a ton of similarities between chinese & Russian platforms

For the J-10 in particular, it has been built with Russian & Israeli assistance with a ton of tech borrowed from the cancelled Israeli "Lavi" project

LOL Don't flatter yourself. We will find out soon enough when the J-10C takes on Indian Rafale. It will happen sooner or later.

Remember how Su-30 and flying coffin were supposed to be sufficient to raze Pakistan to rubble? That tune has changed considerably lately LOL Rafale is now the new Indian saviour.
 
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Zapper

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LOL Don't flatter yourself. We will find out soon enough when the J-10C takes on Indian Rafale. It will happen sooner or later.

Remember how Su-30 and flying coffin were supposed to be sufficient to raze Pakistan to rubble? That tune has changed considerably lately LOL Rafale is now the new Indian saviour.
Looks like your trigger happy thought process is mired with serious comprehension issues. Where did I even compare Rafale's competency with the J-10? I was simply briefing about the origin of J-10

Secondly, our authorities sucked when it came to disinfo warfare compared to your ISPR and his bot army but where was the second pilot which you're ISPR claimed was being treated in CMH. If he was another Indian pilot (that too of Su-30's), y'all would've surely paraded him to score more brownie points

When it comes to some politicians and even IAF officials talking about the Rafale, it was primarily to justify the acquisition and convince the parliament & public to get more. Every force operating Russian platforms have been struggling with maintenance, serviceability and availability of spares issues and western platforms are considerably better in that regard.
 

Zapper

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Says an Indian whose air force is buying fighters right and left from every nook and corner. Have you ever had a look at the IAF that is already dealing with a logistical nightmare.
While you're response is in no way apt to Gessler's post which again reflects your blind hatred, which fighter jets is IAF buying after the Balakot incident?

The MMRCA was first envisioned in 2008 for 126 jets in which Rafale was finalized but due to political and economic issues, it was later reduced to 36 jets in 2015. Currently, IAF is not looking at any foreign fighter except that paid media articles popped up every now n then from Mig, Saab, LM, Boeing, EFT etc that IAF was interested in theirs

Currently, IAF has only placed an order for 83 Tejas Mk-1A and once Mk-2 MWF comes into the picture, we'd place more orders...all this while actively retiring Mig-21s and non-upgraded Jaguars all which account for 200 fighter jets to say the least
 

Lonewolf

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While you're response is in no way apt to Gessler's post which again reflects your blind hatred, which fighter jets is IAF buying after the Balakot incident?

The MMRCA was first envisioned in 2008 for 126 jets in which Rafale was finalized but due to political and economic issues, it was later reduced to 36 jets in 2015. Currently, IAF is not looking at any foreign fighter except that paid media articles popped up every now n then from Mig, Saab, LM, Boeing, EFT etc that IAF was interested in theirs

Currently, IAF has only placed an order for 83 Tejas Mk-1A and once Mk-2 MWF comes into the picture, we'd place more orders...all this while actively retiring Mig-21s and non-upgraded Jaguars all which account for 200 fighter jets to say the least
AnOther tranche of 36 rafale can be purchased as the base and infra allows it , rest all is bullshit
 

Zapper

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AnOther tranche of 36 rafale can be purchased as the base and infra allows it , rest all is bullshit
Lol...that's what fanboys have been saying since 2015. Even if we sign a deal today, it'll be way too late since we're last in line given Dassault's order book and most world countries would start inducting 5th gen fighters. Wouldn't be surprised if china offers PAF their J-31 or the likes
 

Lonewolf

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Lol...that's what fanboys have been saying since 2015. Even if we sign a deal today, it'll be way too late since we're last in line given Dassault's order book and most world countries would start inducting 5th gen fighters. Wouldn't be surprised if china offers PAF their J-31 or the likes
U read can be right , it means it is one possibility ,other is no purchase and last is iaf going bonkers and buying 114 mmrca , but that's the least likely
 

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