TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[UkroTurk]

As per @heartbang mentioned our subs‘ tonnage is too small to accommodate a Bora class missile as well.
S Koreans have developed these two stage 4.8 ton missiles to carry a ton of explosives to destroy North’s underground missile silos.

But South Korean submarine that launches SRBM weights just 3000 ton and the sub is diesel/electric not nuclear powered. Seems quite compact for a SRBM submarine.

I would love to see 6x 5 ton SRBM with 1000kg warhead in 3000 ton MILDEN.

 

[Oublious]

I think able to fire BM from a submarine will give a edge to our navy fire power. A VLS that can be used for BM and later cruise missiles, maybe we would able fire a anti ship ballistic missil ASBM in the future. Imagine firing a BM from the south of Greece coast, it means they have to defend ther country from 2 side. If we build 4 MILDEN should turn 2 of them in to BM capable sub, 1 for cruise missiles and 1 for multi mission like we do with our subs.

 

[Heartbang]

I think able to fire BM from a submarine will give a edge to our navy fire power. A VLS that can be used for BM and later cruise missiles, maybe we would able fire a anti ship ballistic missil ASBM in the future. Imagine firing a BM from the south of Greece coast, it means they have to defend ther country from 2 side. If we build 4 MILDEN should turn 2 of them in to BM capable sub, 1 for cruise missiles and 1 for multi mission like we do with our subs.

totally agree. having a cruise missile capable sub will help in the elimination of Greek AFB's, negating the edge brought on by F35 purchases.

 

[Yasar_TR]

These South Korean subs are actually 3600tons, 83m long vessels with 9.6m beam.
Our 214 Reis class is 1800tons, 68.5 m long with 6.3m beam.
Our Milden subs would have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate a missile like Bora if such a need arose.
But the question is; What are we going to do with a submarine that has ballistic missile launching capability?
250+km range Atmaca will be more than adequate to deter any navy. In fact a Ramjet Anti-Ship missile like a Brahmos, launched from a submarine will be more devastating than a Bora. Indian Navy is developing a version of this missile that will be smaller and will fit in to the torpedo tubes of the submarines. As they can be sea skimming, by the time the enemy gets the wind of it it would be too late. A 3.5 Mach speed ramjet powered anti ship missile travelling at 1200metres/second will be visible to enemy ship’s radars 20 seconds before impact. But a missile like Bora will be noticed shortly after it was fired. (Just check out the number of Iskander missiles both Azerbaijan and Ukraine AD systems downed.)
I would rather see supersonic cruise missile launching capability than a ballistic one for our subs.

 

[Oublious]

These South Korean subs are actually 3600tons, 83m long vessels with 9.6m beam.
Our 214 Reis class is 1800tons, 68.5 m long with 6.3m beam.
Our Milden subs will have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate a missile like Bora.
But the question is; What are we going to do with a submarine that has ballistic missile launching capability?
250+km range Atmaca will be more than adequate to deter any navy. In fact a Ramjet Anti-Ship missile like a Brahmos, launched from a submarine will be more devastating than a Bora. Indian Navy is developing a version of this missile that will be smaller and will fit in to the torpedo tubes of the submarines. As they can be sea skimming, by the time the enemy gets the wind of it it would be too late. A 3.5 Mach speed ramjet powered anti ship missile travelling at 1200metres/second will be visible to enemy ship’s radars 20 seconds before impact. But a missile like Bora will be noticed shortly after it was fired. (Just check out the number of Iskander missiles both Azerbaijan and Ukraine AD systems downed.)
I would rather see supersonic cruise missile launching capability than a ballistic one for our subs.

View attachment 44307

Something like American Seawolf-class, with 50 Gezgin firing capabalities .

Seawolf-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Yasar_TR]

Something like American Seawolf-class, with 50 Gezgin firing capabalities .

Seawolf-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even the Americans themselves realised they were far too big, expensive and unnecessary when they could have the smaller 1 billion dollar cheaper Virginia class instead. So they cancelled 26 of the 29 planned for production.
Even those with bottomless pockets had to be more reasonable.
But we can all dream. May be one day we may have even something better. It is not the quantity or size that matters. It is the quality and effectiveness of the system that is important. Our ULAQ and small STM500 submarines may yet prove to be frigate and destroyer killers. (Just like TB2 being a tank killer)

 

[B.t.N]

Even the Americans themselves realised they were far too big, expensive and unnecessary when they could have the smaller 1 billion dollar cheaper Virginia class instead. So they cancelled 26 of the 29 planned for production.
Even those with bottomless pockets had to be more reasonable.
But we can all dream. May be one day we may have even something better. It is not the quantity or size that matters. It is the quality and effectiveness of the system that is important. Our ULAQ and small STM500 submarines may yet prove to be frigate and destroyer killers. (Just like TB2 being a tank killer)

The longer Virginia Block 5 has over twenty additional slots I hear, that means more tomahawks in slots compared to Seawolves?

 

[Heartbang]

The longer Virginia Block 5 has over twenty additional slots I hear, that means more tomahawks in slots compared to Seawolves?

thats for fitting hypersonic missiles, which are projected to be bigger than tomahawks.

 

[B.t.N]

thats for fitting hypersonic missiles, which are projected to be bigger than tomahawks.

As a Gezgin equivalent, in reference to Oublius’ post…

 

[Yasar_TR]

The longer Virginia Block 5 has over twenty additional slots I hear, that means more tomahawks in slots compared to Seawolves?

U.S. Navy's Virginia Class Submarines To Get 76% More Firepower - Naval News

Quantity has a quality all of its own. And when the quality relates to U.S. Navy missiles, having more of them is inevitably a massive increase in capabilities. The latest Block V Virginia Class submarine will greatly increase the number of missiles which can be carried. In effect this will make...

www.navalnews.com

The Virginia Class Block V submarine will have an additional 28 missile slots in an extended section behind the sail. This will make the submarine much longer but will increase the total number of Tomahawk sized weapons to 65. This is more than the Seawolf Class (50).

That is one long submarine. Must be a real nightmare for engineers to design and build. Cost over 3 billion dollars.
I would rather have 5 Soryu class with Li-Ion batteries (non API) submarines at 600million dollars a piece.
I have a feeling our submarine design bureau may be seriously considering going Li-Ion route for our Milden subs too.

 

[TheInsider]

A missile is a vehicle that is propelled through air by a rocket engine or a jet engine.
A rocket is a vehicle that can be propelled through vacuum and air.
Rockets that are designed to fly predominantly in space and are very different to those that are designed to fly back to earth following a ballistic trajectory.
A 2500kg Lora will be very different to the 1.6-1.8 ton Lora that is in use today. Current Lora with 300km range carry more explosive (570kg). By replacing some of the weight of the explosive with fuel it manages 430km range. If you build a 2500kg weight Lora it will have to have much sturdier construction to carry extra weight. It will have to be bigger and heavier. Yes it will manage to carry more fuel. But a good deal of that fuel will be used to propel that extra weight. There is a trade off of weight and fuel. I have given you examples of 1000km rockets in use. They are much bigger in size and weight. Russians and Chinese have been building these rockets for decades. Do you think they are too dumb not to be able to produce a 2500kg rocket that will go 1000km?
One important point that needs to be considered is that these quasi ballistic missiles when attacking their targets MUST have an angle of attack as perpendicular as possible to avoid easy interception and maximum terminal speed. This particular necessity will also limit the range that will be available to them.
You can’t simply say yes 2500kg Lora will go 1000km.
I say it can’t. If you say it can then prove it!

The submarines we are building do not have vertical launch capability. Any missiles that they can launch are restricted to the 533mm diameter torpedo tubes that are available. As per @heartbang mentioned our subs‘ tonnage is too small to accommodate a Bora class missile as well.
S Koreans have developed these two stage 4.8 ton missiles to carry a ton of explosives to destroy North’s underground missile silos.

Let's calculate it then using the rocket equation and see who's right.

Δv=ve*ln(m0/mt)

ve=Isp*g0

Δv= Isp*g0*ln(m0/mt)

Δv= Difference in velocity.
ve= Effective exhaust velocity
Isp=Specific Impulse in seconds
g0=gravity
m0= Initial mass (launch weight)
mt= Final Mass (weight without fuel)

Propellant Mass Fraction= 1- (m0/mt)

The specific impulse of a modern composite solid fuel is around 260s ( TABLE 1 https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/techdigest/pdf/V04-N03/04-03-Billig.pdf )
The initial mass of next-generation Bora is 2500kg
The final mass of next-generation Bora is 800kg
The propellant mass fraction is 0.68 which is on the "low" side. That can be improved even more. (It means %68 of the rocket's total weight is fuel)


https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/delta-v when we calculate it from here we found a delta-v of ~2.9 km/s (10440 km/h)

This is enough delta-v to reach 900+km.

BTW PrsM currently uses the existing 227kg WDU-18/B unitary high-explosive warhead. A New 200-pound warhead is in development for the 1000+km multi-mode seeker version. There are also plans to make it compatible with the existing or newly developed cluster munition warheads.

Real-life telemetry data of a 1000km ballistic missile.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let's calculate it then using the rocket equation and see who's right.

Δv=ve*ln(m0/mt)

ve=Isp*g0

Δv= Isp*g0*ln(m0/mt)

Δv= Difference in velocity.
ve= Effective exhaust velocity
Isp=Specific Impulse in seconds
g0=gravity
m0= Initial mass (launch weight)
mt= Final Mass (weight without fuel)

Propellant Mass Fraction= 1- (m0/mt)

The specific impulse of a modern composite solid fuel is around 260s ( TABLE 1 https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/techdigest/pdf/V04-N03/04-03-Billig.pdf )
The initial mass of next-generation Bora is 2500kg
The final mass of next-generation Bora is 800kg
The propellant mass fraction is 0.68 which is on the "low" side. That can be improved even more. (It means %68 of the rocket's total weight is fuel)


https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/delta-v when we calculate it from here we found a delta-v of ~2.9 km/s (10440 km/h)

This is enough delta-v to reach 900+km.

BTW PrsM currently uses the existing 227kg WDU-18/B unitary high-explosive warhead. A New 200-pound warhead is in development for the 1000+km multi-mode seeker version. There are also plans to make it compatible with the existing or newly developed cluster munition warheads.

Real-life telemetry data of a 1000km ballistic missile.

View attachment 44331

There is so much that is wrong about this that I don’t know where to start.
1. According to what you say, Bora has 320kg dry weight when totally empty. Surely….? (480kg payload??)
2. No country actually gives out specifics of their missile weights etc unless it is missiles like DF3 where it is used both for space travel and ballistic use and are for export or that have been captured like El-Hussein of Iraq or Scud-B.
3. Hence most of the figures you are quoting here are imaginary and/or suppositions.
4. Bora, Lora, Iskander, B611 are missiles that do not go higher than 50-60000metres. (Quasi Ballistic) . Bora doesn’t go higher than 40km as it is. Tsiolkovsky‘s rocket equation that defines delta-V is really for vacuum of space flight. It only considers the momentum exchange between the rocket and the exhaust, so it ignores the effects of all external forces. There are too many external variables that makes it almost non applicable to quasi ballistic flight in atmosphere, like constantly changing air resistance and varying change in weight of rocket in question, angle of flight, gravity etc etc. It is perfect for space flight and it can be used for launches from ground if you can account for these losses separately.
In practice, rocket ascent trajectories are curved so the actual Δ𝑣Δv including gravity (and drag, steering losses, etc.) depends on the exact ascent path and must be computed through numerical integration.
For a more rule-of-thumb kind of estimation, it is common to write the actual Δ𝑣Δv as that given by the Tsiolkovsky equation (ignoring external forces) minus various delta-v “losses” due to the non-included effects
5. Don’t mix apples and pears. One is space flight trajectory kinematics; The other is semi ballistic flight trajectory.
Here is an excerpt taken from an MIT paper published on difficulties of ballistic missile development versus range:

Range vs. difficulty for ballistic missile development.

It may help you understand ballistic rocket flight kinematics.
There is no point in doctoring figures and bending them to desperately prove a point.
Had it been possible to squeeze 1000km range out of a 1800kg or 2500kg Lora, be sure that the Israelis would have done it. Then it wouldn’t be Lora!
I think we have kept this thread busy on this subject long enough.
You believe what you believe and I know what I believe. And let us leave it at that.

 

[TheInsider]

There is so much that is wrong about this that I don’t know where to start.
1. According to what you say, Bora has 320kg dry weight when totally empty. Surely….? (480kg payload??)
2. No country actually gives out specifics of their missile weights etc unless it is missiles like DF3 where it is used both for space travel and ballistic use and are for export or that have been captured like El-Hussein of Iraq or Scud-B.
3. Hence most of the figures you are quoting here are imaginary and/or suppositions.
4. Bora, Lora, Iskander, B611 are missiles that do not go higher than 50-60000metres. (Quasi Ballistic) . Bora doesn’t go higher than 40km as it is. Tsiolkovsky‘s rocket equation that defines delta-V is really for vacuum of space flight. It only considers the momentum exchange between the rocket and the exhaust, so it ignores the effects of all external forces. There are too many external variables that makes it almost non applicable to quasi ballistic flight in atmosphere, like constantly changing air resistance and varying change in weight of rocket in question, angle of flight, gravity etc etc. It is perfect for space flight and it can be used for launches from ground if you can account for these losses separately.
In practice, rocket ascent trajectories are curved so the actual Δ𝑣Δv including gravity (and drag, steering losses, etc.) depends on the exact ascent path and must be computed through numerical integration.
For a more rule-of-thumb kind of estimation, it is common to write the actual Δ𝑣Δv as that given by the Tsiolkovsky equation (ignoring external forces) minus various delta-v “losses” due to the non-included effects
5. Don’t mix apples and pears. One is space flight trajectory kinematics; The other is semi ballistic flight trajectory.
Here is an excerpt taken from an MIT paper published on difficulties of ballistic missile development versus range:

Range vs. difficulty for ballistic missile development.

It may help you understand ballistic rocket flight kinematics.
There is no point in doctoring figures and bending them to desperately prove a point.
Had it been possible to squeeze 1000km range out of a 1800kg or 2500kg Lora, be sure that the Israelis would have done it. Then it wouldn’t be Lora!
I think we have kept this thread busy on this subject long enough.
You believe what you believe and I know what I believe. And let us leave it at that.

1) %15 structural weight is completely normal for the missiles. There are missiles with a 0.90 mass propellant fraction. Besides why only use the existing 470kg warhead? We can at least cut that in half with an improved warhead design(we are producing all kinds of explosives now thermobaric, HMX, RDX, etc.) as I said earlier we are designing a next-generation platform. 0.68 mass propellant fraction is already an extra safe number.
4) Bora, Iskander, and Lora don't go higher than those but a 1000km ballistic missile(you are suggesting this) reaches altitudes between 200 to 300km. This is a light SRBM and not a tactical missile that flies with a depressed trajectory. Rocket equation is a good approximation tool atmospheric drag and air resistance are not that important unless you are going for a pinpoint calculation, the main loss is against gravity (ICBMs lose around 1 km/s to gravity) and I'm proving that such ranges are possible with a launch weight of 2500kg.
5)Rocket equating can be used to calculate both. It is possible and we are already witnessing it happening. Lora is a 2000s technology BTW it is only one generation ahead of Bora. We are in 2022. The main problem with ballistic missiles is due to their nature their precision was bad and to compensate that people stuffed them with heavy warheads. The missile gets heavier exponentially when you want to carry a heavier payload. Bora can easily double its range with the same warhead by applying up-to-date technologies and production methods. It can possibly reach 1000km and above with cutting some corners like designing a new lighter warhead.

 

[Test7]

Aselsan- Wing-Assisted Guidance Kit

KGK is a wing-assisted GPS/INS
guidance kit that converts existing
unguided 1,000 lb MK-83 and 500 lb MK-82 general purpose bombs into long-range smart weapons. By KGK, the bombs have the capability of precision hit up to 10m error from 100km range, in all weather conditions.

 

[Khagan1923]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532394939740565505

Presentation about the Cakir Cruise Missile by Dr Yigit Koray at the 9th Air and Avionics Seminar.

 

[TheInsider]

Roketsan: You can literally touch Atmaca and Çakır missiles if you raise your hand when they are cruising.

 

[Cenkcnk]

Roketsan: You can literally touch Atmaca and Çakır missiles if you raise your hand when they are cruising.

"...If you really hate your arm"

 

[NitricAcid]

National ammunition is landing on the field one by one:

​

​

The serial production of the laser-guided miniature ammunition Bozok, developed for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) within the Turkish defense industry, has begun.​

Goksel Yildirim |04.06.2022

Photograph: Mustafa Ciftci/AA

Ankara​

❮❯

National ammunition is landing on the field one by one​

Gürcan Okumuş, Director of the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey (TÜBİTAK) Defense Industry Research and Development Institute (SAGE), told Anadolu Agency (AA) that the demand for defense industry products is increasing day by day with the effect of cyclical developments.
Stating that as the Institute, new ones have been added to the existing projects in order to provide R&D, development and capability to the existing products, Okumuş stated that while the mass production of the cruise missile SOM project continues at ROKETSAN, the studies for adding capabilities to different variants of the missile and nationalization of the sub-components are continuing.

Informing that successful shootings were carried out within the scope of the project, Okumuş said, "We have come to an important stage in SOM-J. Our F-16 shots have started. Our shots that provide engagement to the target have also started. SOM-J is a project that we care about as a cruise missile that can also be launched from UAVs. Close At the same time, we will see very important results there, we can say that the project is at the completion stage." said.
Stating that the tests of air-to-air missiles continue and that there will be different test campaigns this year, Okumuş said, "Our preparations for mass production continue. Our Gökhan project has started, our work on our ramjet air-air missile continues intensively." he said.

New capabilities coming to guidance kits​

Pointing out that guidance kits are used extensively in operations, Okumuş made the following assessments:
"We saw how quickly ammunition stocks were melted down in the Ukrainian operation. We are also working intensively on guidance kits in this regard. We are focusing on different seekers, especially laser seeker, to gain new capabilities, increase nationality rates. HGK-82, HGK-83. We continue to work on winged guidance kits with lasers and other seeker heads, different capabilities, anti-jamming antennas, and improvements for faster production. Guidance kits will also be used as weapons for our new UAVs with high carrying capacity."

Kuzgun is close to the first order​

Stating that UAV-oriented ammunition projects are also progressing rapidly, Okumuş gave the following information about the modular ammunition family Kuzgun project:
"Kuzgun is a project we care about a lot. We are making significant progress in Kuzgun. There are different variants of Kuzgun: free floating, turbojet and solid fuel. All three continue in parallel. First of all, the tests of the free float will be completed and we are very close to the order stage.

We gave great importance to the studies on the solid fuel of the Kuzgun, which we will make its first shot from an unmanned sea vehicle. This year, we will see the Raven being thrown from an unmanned sea vehicle, and in 2023, we will make significant progress in the turbo-jet model. Work continues on Kayı, which we call the younger of Kuzgun."

Bozok's potency and range increase​

Gürcan Okumuş stated that mass production has started in Bozok, the first UAV ammunition of the institute and its qualification has been completed.
Stating that they have developed Bozok's penetrating warhead, Okumuş said, "We will have some test shots on it. We are working on extending the range. There were shots at Bozok that exceeded 15 kilometers. We are looking at where we can bring it. We aim for a longer range in Bozok." said.
Okumuş stated that they will make deliveries in batches with mass production.

Navigation and explosive material solutions​

Informing that they continue to develop navigation products while the system projects continue, Okumuş said that the navigation packages that can be used in fast boats and ships have made significant progress.
Stating that they have started to deliver nearly 20 deliveries within the scope of an order, Okumuş said, "Our shipyards are working especially with high export potential. We aim to use our navigation products there. The inertial measurement unit we call navigation, the global positioning receiver Kaşif. Mass production has started, but it continues to develop." he said.
Pointing out that they are also experts in explosive and energetic materials, Okumuş continued:
"R&D studies are still continuing on this subject. We developed Turkey's first thermobaric explosive, Tendürek. We developed very different, very cost-effective versions of it, and it became qualified and started to be used. We have products such as Kor and Alaz. Within the scope of the Volkan project. "Powder thermobaric works have been completed, mass production will be made by the Machinery and Chemical Industry. As powder thermobaric, we are progressing in ammunition systems and energetic materials that can be used in different products."

Cooperation with military factories​

Stating that a project of 1000 units for the HGK-82 with ASFAT, the Military Factory and Shipyard Operation Joint Stock Company, is about to be completed, Okumuş said, "We are in talks. We will continue to provide support if they have different needs. We continue to support in different projects to use the production capabilities of our military factories. will." used the expressions.





Source: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/bilim-teknoloji/milli-muhimmatlar-birer-birer-sahaya-iniyor/2605504

 

[Bayraktar TB2]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1533052386343800833

 

[Avanti]

What is the stage of Gökhan?