Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Umigami]

Putin launch a different kind of war with other European nation and now they experiencing economic issues as a result. I dont think Puttin nor NATO want an open war, they both know the final result even before the war started.

For sure not, that's why those who backed Ukraine little hesitant to gives Ukraine high profile lethal aid that may could lead Russia think that they fight really against NATO countries as many those who give lethal aid are member countries.

Recently, Putin announced partial mobilization. Still not nuclear option yet, for sure this the last option. If this mobilization doesn't work, which have to be like that, Putin must be mad lol. He have to appears as strongman not a loser.

Election interference. Active Measures to backed political candidates that in favor of Putin from whatever political spectrum, the wildest can be seen was protest in Czech few days/weeks ago, far-right and far-left were both in the same protest lol, really red-brown anti-NATO alliance, nice specimen of horseshoe theory.

Enough with OOT

 

[Gary]

Is F3r still available after 2024 production lot?

There's no structural difference between an F3R and the F4. An F3R could be upgraded to F4 and vice versa an F4 could be downgraded to F3R without the necessary software upgrade that makes an F4.

The main difference of the F4 over the F3R could be seen here.

Press kits - Dassault Aviation

Consult all press information on Dassault Aviation operations. © Dassault Aviation

www.dassault-aviation.com

New functions will also be developed to improve the aircraft’s capabilities (upgrades to the radar sensors and front sector optronics, helmet-mounted display capabilities), and new weapons will be integrated (Mica NG air-to-air missile and 1,000-kg AASM Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon).

Lastly, with regard to availability, we are working under a through-life support contract which will become more “top-down” under the authority of the aircraft manufacturer. F4 will include a new Prognosis and Diagnostic Aid System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimization features are scheduled, particularly with solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Lastly, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit.

 

[JATOSINT]

There's no structural difference between an F3R and the F4. An F3R could be upgraded to F4 and vice versa an F4 could be downgraded to F3R without the necessary software upgrade that makes an F4.

There is a structural difference starting from F4.2: https://omnirole-rafale.com/avionique/evolutif/

 

[Umigami]

There is a structural difference starting from F4.2: https://omnirole-rafale.com/avionique/evolutif/

So, delay second batch and wait for F4.2 instead?

 

[Gary]

There is a structural difference starting from F4.2: https://omnirole-rafale.com/avionique/evolutif/

I stand corrected

 

[JATOSINT]

So, delay second batch and wait for F4.2 instead?

Interesting

 

[FPXAllen]

So, delay second batch and wait for F4.2 instead?

That will be a bad idea, IMHO.

It's always tempting for most people to have the "latest and greatest" of anything, but that doesn't necessarily mean a good thing in terms of military hardware - especially if we haven't gathered enough experience in operating and maintaining the "previous version" of said hardware.

Combine that with our air force's urgent needs to modernize and expand its arsenal as soon as possible, having a full complement of 42 Rafale F3R in, say, the early 2030s will be much more meaningful rather than having to wait for a few more years for the same amount of F4.2 version - especially given our geographical condition and the geopolitical situation.

Besides, modern jet fighters are just one part of the whole equation for any nation's air defense. A slightly less capable fighter type but supported by a full range of air defense radars and early warning network, as well as solid logistics can still deliver a lot of pain to the invaders. I dare to say that it will be even better performing than the most advanced fighter type that only has tattered and convoluted supports behind it.

 

[Umigami]

BILLIONS DOLLAR QUESTION:
Stay with IFX or go all in with Rafale ?

(Consider KAI and Dassault plan in the future)

 

[JATOSINT]

That will be a bad idea, IMHO.

It's always tempting for most people to have the "latest and greatest" of anything, but that doesn't necessarily mean a good thing in terms of military hardware - especially if we haven't gathered enough experience in operating and maintaining the "previous version" of said hardware.

Combine that with our air force's urgent needs to modernize and expand its arsenal as soon as possible, having a full complement of 42 Rafale F3R in, say, the early 2030s will be much more meaningful rather than having to wait for a few more years for the same amount of F4.2 version - especially given our geographical condition and the geopolitical situation.

Besides, modern jet fighters are just one part of the whole equation for any nation's air defense. A slightly less capable fighter type but supported by a full range of air defense radars and early warning network, as well as solid logistics can still deliver a lot of pain to the invaders. I dare to say that it will be even better performing than the most advanced fighter type that only has tattered and convoluted supports behind it.

It will depend on many things such as when we will be able to pay for the 2nd batch and how long the F3R production line will still be opened

I acknowledge the 'experience' aspect but how big is the learning curve/technological jump between F3R and F4.2 anyway? One may argue that since Rafale is, indeed, a completely new toy for us, we should just buy the newest version as well when we can afford it (biar sekalian belajarnya). We have done this before when we procured the latest variant of apache, slyshield, etc

 

[Gundala]

Stay with IFX or go all in with Rafale ?

Rafale = diversification and mature product, IFX = road to 5th gen and unproven design. Unless the next President change the course we would have both as planned. Under the condition that we should go all the way to block III and the permit to modify (Electronic Suites wise). Or we going to stuck with block 1 for a long time...

 

[Gundala]

It will depend on many things such as when we will be able to pay for the 2nd batch and how long the F3R production line will still be opened

I acknowledge the 'experience' aspect but how big is the learning curve/technological jump between F3R and F4.2 anyway? One may argue that since Rafale is, indeed, a completely new toy for us, we should just buy the newest version as well when we can afford it (biar sekalian belajarnya). We have done this before when we procured the latest variant of apache, slyshield, etc

France 6th gen fighter plan has been delayed schedule wise, so I think F3R production will still be there along with F4.2. The F3R market demand would still be there as Franco might not be willing to sell the latest version to certain country.

I agree on Allen that we should not wait for the F4.2. We can have slightly longer learning curve line with F4.2 but the risk of having longer time to reach IOC/FOC is unacceptable in current geopolitic condition.

I hope we can execute the Rafale purchase plan like we wanted to at least partially next year, or else we going to stuck with 6 rafale with no munition for a while.....

 

[JATOSINT]

I agree on Allen that we should not wait for the F4.2. We can have slightly longer learning curve line with F4.2 but the risk of having longer time to reach IOC/FOC is unacceptable in current geopolitic condition.

IOC/FOC for F4.2 (2nd batch) should not be that long because we already operating 6 F3R, no?

I agree with the delivery time concern. Still, it will be very interesting if there is little to no delivery time difference between F4.2 and F3R (if we can financially and politically buy the F4.2 of course)

 

[Umigami]

Rafale = diversification and mature product, IFX = road to 5th gen and unproven design. Unless the next President change the course we would have both as planned. Under the condition that we should go all the way to block III and the permit to modify (Electronic Suites wise). Or we going to stuck with block 1 for a long time...

And to simplify logistics, how about integrating French missile into IFX (Mica instead of Iris T, Scalp instead of taurus, etc) ?

...as "pengganti" for not getting more ToT.

 

[Umigami]

View attachment 47966

With this sacrifice I hope we got that 2nd batch Rafale.

 

[Lordimperator]

With this sacrifice I hope we got that 2nd batch Rafale.

Doubt

 

[Gundala]

IOC/FOC for F4.2 (2nd batch) should not be that long because we already operating 6 F3R, no?

Depends on alot of things. For example; a simple radar range upgrade require certain sop to be changed as well or even a simple Monitor or button location change need some time to get used to. That would require training, and training usually take months to get used to if we dont have the updated equipment such as simulator etc. Its a jet fighter pilot we are talking about here where a second late reaction is crucial for the end result.

And to simplify logistics, how about integrating French missile into IFX (Mica instead of Iris T, Scalp instead of taurus, etc) ?

I am under the assumption Kemenhan already knew that or at least will work towards what we already have in our navy inventory. Tho we have to understand that the heart of IFX radar is made from elsewhere, the software/coding might need to be modify by "them".

 

[Umigami]

Tho we have to understand that the heart of IFX radar is made from elsewhere, the software/coding might need to be modify by "them".

Are you talking about Korean or ... ?

 

[Soman45]

So now skadron 14 using F-16 from skadron 16 and those shukois are balik kandang

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[Umigami]

So now skadron 14 using F-16 from skadron 16 and those shukois are balik kandang

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View attachment 48025

because their future fighters are NATO oriented

 

[Gary]

because their future fighters are NATO oriented

I think it's more about infrastructure, the F-16s supporting infrastructure is in Java (Skatek 042) rather than the Makassar based Flanker (Skatek 044).