TR Aircraft Carrier and Amphibious Ship Programs

[uçuyorum]

Why do you guys always make it a "political" thing. National defense industry is what our state needs, independent of what political party ever.

An aircraft carrier is inherently more political than most other platforms as it signals a significant shift in geopolitical approach and priorities.

 

[B_A]

Best defense is offense!

If you do not have the means to strike your defenses are incomplete. I support the aircraft carrier, we need to be able to have a foothold in Africa.

We should follow the idea of Soviet navy,we will use our carrier to have a foothold,also mainly use submarine to against the enemy s great fleet

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Why do you guys always make it a "political" thing. National defense industry is what our state needs, independent of what political party ever.

Bro, AC is actually related to the official vision of our country and level at which it positions itself for future, which some of us aren't aware of at the moment and which we will benefit a lot in the future. This project has emerged in line with predetermined objectives and has been shaped entirely by wishes of Naval Forces.

I say this by excluding those who talk about technical difficulties and cost of such a big scale project on our economy. At the beginning of every major project, you can hear very similar "political" statements on social media and forums. This was also case when TFX-KAAN project was decided in a SSIK Meeting. Many well-known accounts of today were having fun with project after it was announced, talking about political motivation and electoral investment but it took for them 10+ years of menthal development and maturity to see the strategic vision of their country with truths. Now they have all found right way. For some people, it will be the same with all such large-scale projects costs too much money

Btw, This AC target is not new, it dates back to maybe 20 years back but it is a target that couldn't be realised due to the economic problems and technological levels. Now, it has been decided to crown this big goal along with many ongoing warship projects and concrete steps taken in aviation industry. This goal will be followed by Tf2000, Milden and a naval Multi-role variant fighter aircraft and finally Turkiye will emerge as a very effective and strong naval power...

 

[Cabatli_TR]

In my opinion, to make these assets useful, the amphibious force should evolve dramatically. It is not practical to have an M48 with a simple 4x4 for amphibious operations. Amphibious forces need to be as capable as land forces if the intention is to use these platforms as it is intended. Frankly I am waiting for a few more solid steps on this as currently the amphibious forces seem to remain untouched and not equipped to the point these carriers indicate.

I think we need a light tank, wheeled APC design suitable for the Navy with optional turret designs, mobile EW systems, mobile air defence, tracked IFV-APCs etc. These are all missing at the moment.

Turkish navy was also very interested in Zubr-like hovercrafts for a while. I expect a project in this field within next 5 years. In addition, I think that amphibious IFV with a strong turret can be purchased for Naval Forces in NGIFV program with domestic powerpack whose contract will be signed with 4digit figures.

 

[Sanchez]

There was a talk of employing hovercrafts for the marines about 10 years ago, even LCAC for Anadolu which I believe can carry a single one instead of 4 LCMs. Didn't hear anything for ages. If there will be 2 LHDs and maybe even 6 LSTs, marine battalion will indeed need to be expanded, to a full on command.

 

[UkroTurk]

The countries that have AC also have great nuclear deterrence. Noone could dare attacking USN, RN, FN,PLAN and Indian Navy thank to nuclear weapons.

We could use AC against just small African tribes that wouldn't have Antiship capabilities. On the other hand, until Turkish AC is comissioned most of little countries will have Antiship capabilities.

Remember Falkland war. With limited several exocets from super etendars , how could Argentina challenge Royal Navy.
If GB hadn't been nuclear power, Argentina could have gone further.

 

[UkroTurk]

There is the obvious solution to that problem.

IMO without AC we could defend our EEZ in the Mediterranean and in the Egean sea. We Just need more quantity of modern frigates.

İf you have interests with Africa and east Asia , Submarines with ballistic missiles would be more effective and lethal. For us There is no need making DRAGON WALK with AC and destroyers in the blue waters. İt's my humble opinion.

 

[Zafer]

IMO without AC we could defend our EEZ in the Mediterranean and in the Egean sea. We Just need more quantity of modern frigates.

İf you have interests with Africa and east Asia , Submarines with ballistic missiles would be more effective and lethal. For us There is no need making DRAGON WALK with AC and destroyers in the blue waters. İt's my humble opinion.

Remember French AC coming to our shores to bully, why not patrol near France as it is free sailing for everyone.

 

[UkroTurk]

Remember French AC coming to our shores to bully, why not patrol near France as it is free sailing for everyone.

But Could French AC have attacked on Türkiye, or The French AC wasn't an easy target for TN and TurAF? İt was just a show without a profit. French AC could not scare Türkiye.
Türkiye anasını sikerdi istese o ACnin. Rezil olurlardı.

I would prefer investing in nuclear powered submarines rather than AC.

 

[Zafer]

But Could French AC have attacked on Türkiye, or The French AC wasn't an easy target for TN and TurAF? İt was just a show without a profit. French AC could not scare Türkiye.

They didn't come over for nothing, they were thinking it would be intimidating for us before we showed our EW magic.

 

[UkroTurk]

They didn't come over for nothing, they were thinking it would be intimidating for us before we showed our EW magic.

So Aircraft Carriers are not the best tool for saving national interest.

 

[Zafer]

So Aircraft Carriers are not the best tool for saving national interest.

Unless you have everything else to complement them. We are lacking nuclear propulsion, everything else we can deal with easier. But the seas we are interested in only streches from the west coasts of Africa to south China see in the east. So we can afford to go without nuclear propulsion in the next couple decades when we don't have nuclear propulsion. It has a big role for show off of power which is a solid show of what a nations is capable of. When you have it running well it shows that you have everything else.

 

[UkroTurk]

Unless you have everything else to complement them. We are lacking nuclear propulsion, everything else we can deal with easier. But the seas we are interested in only streches from the west coasts of Africa to south China see in the east. So we can afford to go without nuclear propulsion in the next couple decades when we don't have nuclear propulsion. It has a big role for show off of power which is a solid show of what a nations is capable of. When you have it running well it shows that you have everything else.

Forget about Asia. PRC and India wouldn't allow.

You might be right about Africa. AC might be used for interests about Africa. But for Mediterranean conflicts having AC is absolutely too much risky.

Edit: waste of source.
İt's a kinda : giving UMTAS ATGM or SUNGUR MANPADS to police officer.

 

[Zafer]

Forget about Asia. PRC and India wouldn't allow.

You might be right about Africa. AC might be used for interests about Africa. But for Mediterranean conflicts having AC is absolutely too much risky.

It hasn't even been a month yet when the prime minister of Maldives visitied Türkiye because of their being fed up with Indians. We will need a location at the equatorial region to use as a spaceport for launching heavy payloads beyond a couple hundred kilograms. The two locations cited includes Somalia and Indonesia. I would add Maldives to the list for good meausure. We are also interested in selling weapons systems to the countries in that region. There are regions in that location who flied Turkish flags in their skies and looked up to Türkiye for guidance.

 

[UkroTurk]

It hasn't even been a month yet when the prime minister of Maldives visitied Türkiye because of their being fed up with Indians. We will need a location at the equatorial region to use as a spaceport for launching heavy payloads beyong a couple hundred kilograms. The two locations cited includes Somalia and Indonesia. I would add Maldives to the list for good meausure. We are also interested in selling weapons systems to the countries in that region. There are regions in that location who flied Turkish flags in their skies and looked up to Türkiye for guidance.

I quit because i already said. Attığın taş vurduğun kuşa değecek mi? TN has to deal with real other priorities and limited financial resources.

Show us more Milgems

 

[Zafer]

I quit because i already said. Attığın taş vurduğun kuşa değecek mi? TN has to deal with real other priorities and limited financial resources.

Show us more Milgems

The things is working on an AC will not prevent us from making Milgems and all but will support making them as we will need more of them. As to finances we are above 80% self reliant and going towards 95% self relient by the time we start building the AC.

 

[Nutuk]

Bro, AC is actually related to the official vision of our country and level at which it positions itself for future, which some of us aren't aware of at the moment and which we will benefit a lot in the future. This project has emerged in line with predetermined objectives and has been shaped entirely by wishes of Naval Forces.

I say this by excluding those who talk about technical difficulties and cost of such a big scale project on our economy. At the beginning of every major project, you can hear very similar "political" statements on social media and forums. This was also case when TFX-KAAN project was decided in a SSIK Meeting. Many well-known accounts of today were having fun with project after it was announced, talking about political motivation and electoral investment but it took for them 10+ years of menthal development and maturity to see the strategic vision of their country with truths. Now they have all found right way. For some people, it will be the same with all such large-scale projects costs too much money

Btw, This AC target is not new, it dates back to maybe 20 years back but it is a target that couldn't be realised due to the economic problems and technological levels. Now, it has been decided to crown this big goal along with many ongoing warship projects and concrete steps taken in aviation industry. This goal will be followed by Tf2000, Milden and a naval Multi-role variant fighter aircraft and finally Turkiye will emerge as a very effective and strong naval power...

I know bro, I still have the journal "ulusal strateji" from 1999 in which the navy was advocating for an aircraft carrier. But tell that to some who cannot differentiate between state policy and political party policy.

All these political arguments kill the discussions and make it stray from technical to political preferences. Makes me kinda fed up.

 

[dBSPL]

The UK Navy is considering the possibility of divesting or early retirement of one of the Albion-class LPDs after HMS Ocean due to personnel and sustainment issues.

Many European navies are facing similar problems. There are personnel problems, and most navies have not developed doctrinal approaches appropriate to the post-cold war era, and therefore have inventory structures that are difficult to adapt to today's conditions. Below tier 1, medium-sized navies have also a terrible combat readiness problem.

Meanwhile, the Turkish navy is conducting simultaneous exercises in three seas with a +100-piece fleet, and is slowly sharing its platform plans for the next 30 years with the public.

France has a special position due to its naval policies and political interests, and we cannot ignore ambitious modernization plans like Italy. Of course, there are many naval projects that we follow with interest. However, the situation is that the economies of these countries do not have the huge gap against potential competitors in their spheres of influence as they did 30 years ago, and they have been slow to renew their strategies and planning in line with the changing world conditions. On top of all this, there is an aging population and human resource problems.

The world is in a period of change. In fact, it is certain that this will be one of the major nodes in the history of the world we are living in, which happens every few hundred years. It will not be limited to the transfer of assets, but will be characterized by the transfer of power, and this process will create new military powers, countries that seemed insignificant just a few decades ago will become important actors of the new era with the leverage of geopolitics.

 

[dBSPL]

Won't happen!

It is like did we build engines before building armored vehicles, tank??? Did we build ship engines, VLS before building frigates? Do we build naval aircraft before and aircraft carrier?

Some things are build when there is a demand, when there is a need. An aircraft carrier will act as an engine that produces needs. Sounds odd but things work like this, when an aircraft carrier needs a battle group it will be build, not the other way around.

Excellent spotting. The National AC program will be the Apollo program of Turkish naval aviation.

 

[boredaf]

Won't happen!

It is like did we build engines before building armored vehicles, tank??? Did we build ship engines, VLS before building frigates? Do we build naval aircraft before and aircraft carrier?

Some things are build when there is a demand, when there is a need. An aircraft carrier will act as an engine that produces needs. Sounds odd but things work like this, when an aircraft carrier needs a battle group it will be build, not the other way around.

Then we are shite planners, building an aircraft carrier before we build all the necessary structure around it is simply stupid. What is going to happen to the carrier until those other ships are built? Just sit in a drydock? Or be a sitting duck in the water against an enemy? Or, siphon most of our surface fleet with it, leaving us vulnerable in other fronts?

We are not even *the* regional power in terms of naval power, thinking about "projecting" power in Africa, for example, by sending most of our surface fleet with it is just ridiculous. And please don't tell me, "we don't have to have as many ships as US/UK has for a carrier group", you either properly protect a carrier, or you don't build it. This is an extremely expensive ship that is vulnerable without adequate support.

Even UK can't "project power" by itself despite having a bigger fleet than us, its cvs have either been used with NATO or at least with other country's ships around them. And there is no guarantee that in 20 years time we are going to have "allies" we can trust to support our carrier. Either we properly support and protect it ourselves, or we would be better off allocating those resources to other ships.