TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Merzifonlu]

IMO, the reason for the delay in the delivery of the Gökbey helicopter is the LHTEC CTS-800 engine, which is planned to be used in the first batches. I don't have any proof, but I feel like there is a deliberate delay in the license for that engine.

I think if the TS-1400 engine enters mass production without any problems, then suddenly (!) and magically (!) the licensing issue for the CTS-800 is solved. If there are problems in the mass production of the TS-1400, the license of the CTS-800 will also be delayed. LOL

 

[Yasar_TR]

IMO, the reason for the delay in the delivery of the Gökbey helicopter is the LHTEC CTS-800 engine, which is planned to be used in the first batches. I don't have any proof, but I feel like there is a deliberate delay in the license for that engine.

I think if the TS-1400 engine enters mass production without any problems, then suddenly (!) and magically (!) the licensing issue for the CTS-800 is solved. If there are problems in the mass production of the TS-1400, the license of the CTS-800 will also be delayed. LOL

We are becoming paranoid about the West and embargoes. Yes. There are undisclosed embargoes related to many a defence equipment when it comes to Turkey. But a RR owned company like Honeywell that has already signed an agreement and advertised Gokbey being flown by CTS800 engines in it’s site, is not going to drag it’s feet about license issues; Even if there are any!

quote:
Turkish Aerospace Industries and the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company, a 50-50 partnership between Honeywell International Inc. and Rolls-Royce, have signed an agreement to supply CTS800 turboshaft engines for Turkish Light Utility Helicopter, a program of the Undersecretary for Defence Industry.
unquote

CTS800

A class-leading, high tech engine family

www.rolls-royce.com

 

[TR_123456]

We are becoming paranoid about the West and embargoes. Yes. There are undisclosed embargoes related to many a defence equipment when it comes to Turkey. But a RR owned company like Honeywell that has already signed an agreement and advertised Gokbey being flown by CTS800 engines in it’s site, is not going to drag it’s feet about license issues; Even if there are any!


View attachment 64366
quote:
Turkish Aerospace Industries and the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company, a 50-50 partnership between Honeywell International Inc. and Rolls-Royce, have signed an agreement to supply CTS800 turboshaft engines for Turkish Light Utility Helicopter, a program of the Undersecretary for Defence Industry.
unquote

CTS800

A class-leading, high tech engine family

www.rolls-royce.com

So,why the delay then,what other reason can there be?

 

[Sanchez]

So,why the delay then,what other reason can there be?

There could be many things we are not privy to. Small example, you would expect high altitude tests to be done years ago, not 3 months after first production variants were to be delivered.

 

[Yasar_TR]

So,why the delay then,what other reason can there be?

As @Sanchez has pointed out there may be many reasons. These first helicopters may not have some of the Gendarmerie requested specifications yet, and need to be passed through certain tests. Hence delaying actual deliveries. We will find out soon, when they are ready.

 

[Sanchez]

New video on possible T925 models.
We know that Forestry Service model is already coming and it's the first one shown here as well. As well as the air ambulance and offshore support version. And given MTOW is now 12 tons, instead of 11. This thing gains weight faster than me. At this point, I'm expecting a three engine design...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745541623398715445

 

[Merzifonlu]

At this point, I'm expecting a three engine design...

Nice nice, but which engine?

 

[Zafer]

Nice nice, but which engine?

A 3x TS1400 engine helicopter can perform acceptably well.

NHIndustries NH90 - Vikipedi

tr.wikipedia.org

NHIndustries NH90 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Anmdt]

New video on possible T925 models.
We know that Forestry Service model is already coming and it's the first one shown here as well. As well as the air ambulance and offshore support version. And given MTOW is now 12 tons, instead of 11. This thing gains weight faster than me. At this point, I'm expecting a three engine design...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745541623398715445

The part that shows it as a CG SAR helicopter on the CG Corvette is a bit off scale. There is no way that utility helicopter is going to look that small on that ship, been there, seen it, and they make it look like it will occupy the same area as the UH-1.

 

[Sanchez]

The part that shows it as a CG SAR helicopter on the CG Corvette is a bit off scale. There is no way that utility helicopter is going to look that small on that ship, been there, seen it, and they make it look like it will occupy the same area as the UH-1.

Yup, Dost Class is a nice little ship, no way this monster fits that hangar. Not sure if the helipad can even accommodate it.

 

[Merzifonlu]

A 3x TS1400 engine helicopter can perform acceptably well.

No, power is insufficient. Considering that the helicopter will be 11 tons or even 12 tons, 3x1400 = 4200 HP means insufficient power. Especially if high&hot performance is sought. I think 6000 HP is what she needs.

 

[Zafer]

No, power is insufficient. Considering that the helicopter will be 11 tons or even 12 tons, 3x1400 = 4200 HP means insufficient power. Especially if high&hot performance is sought. I think 6000 HP is what she needs.

Much of the work the helicopter will do will be at sea level and for hot and high you simply operate it with less fuel and payload. The 10600kg MTOW helicopter is powered by 2*2115 = 4230 hp and the TS1400 delivers 4200 without breaking a sweat and it can actually go as high as 1680 hp in emergency situations. It would be better to have a more powerful engine but it is best to be able to use what you already have. Helicopters are not designed to rely on just one power level they can be tuned to work with several levels of engine power. TAI should simply start with such a 3 engine configuration and employ other engine options as they go. They will probably make a dozen or so with the Ukrainian engine already but if the engine supply is cut they should quickly be able to continue production with a 3 engine option which will be fantastic. Also note that in he TAI promotion video it talks about a 16+ passenger count while the helicopter in the example carries 20+ .

 

[Merzifonlu]

TAI should simply start with such a 3 engine configuration and employ other engine options as they go.

This part of your message made a lot of sense to me, although I still think the power is insufficient. If T925 is designed with 3 engines from the beginning and the engine chambers are kept large, the capacity of the helicopter can be easily increased in the future.

 

[Zafer]

This part of your message made a lot of sense to me, although I still think the power is insufficient. If T925 is designed with 3 engines from the beginning and the engine chambers are kept large, the capacity of the helicopter can be easily increased in the future.

They can keep the rotors of the helicopter intact and tune the MTOW with the power of the engine and that is a different version of the helicopter right there. Because helicopters are not so very aerodynamically optimized their engine compartment size will not be very critical anyway. As we already have the Gökbey that can handle hot and high operations the T925 need not be top grade powerful initially. Further in the future if we make more powerful engines or we source foreign licensed engines more and more capable version can be built.

 

[fushkee]

I don't remember where but as if Akşit hoca would consider to develop a kind of TS3000 turboshaft engine to use T925 and T929 helicopters. Although there is no any news about that, maybe it is still under development. Who knows!

 

[uçuyorum]

3 engine config would completely change the entire gearbox and transmission, which is basically building a new helicopter.

 

[Zafer]

I don't remember where but as if Akşit hoca would consider to develop a kind of TS3000 turboshaft engine to use T925 and T929 helicopters. Although there is no any news about that, maybe it is still under development. Who knows!

They will more likely than not make that engine at some point in time but priorities of development seem to keep it neglected for now. The more pressing matter is if the need for that power level engine can be satisfied somehow from Ukraine, from GE or by using a three engine setup. If the easier alternatives can be utilized than the making of such an engine will keep being postponed.

 

[Zafer]

3 engine config would completely change the entire gearbox and transmission, which is basically building a new helicopter.

You are keeping everything else intact and only making a new gearbox with 3 engine input, shouldn't be too hard to develop for the maker who already makes a twin engine gearbox. Acquiring this technology will be useful for more powerful machines in the future so it is very well worth investing in.

 

[Sanchez]

I don't remember where but as if Akşit hoca would consider to develop a kind of TS3000 turboshaft engine to use T925 and T929 helicopters. Although there is no any news about that, maybe it is still under development. Who knows!

They're gonna have to eventually, we can't move on medium size helicopters with Mi-17 engines. Apart from being wholly different than what we are building with TS1400, TV3 engine is also ancient. T929 and T925 is a dead end without local 2400+ hp engines.

 

[hawk21]

The complete failure of the NH-90 has created a massive opportunity for the T-925 to secure orders globally. Right now, nobody wants the NH-90 and apart from new customers the existing customers also need replacements. The options, particularly for ASW, are limited to the 10.5 ton MH-60R (800km+, 3.5 hours) and the 15 ton AW101 (1500 km, 7 hours).

All TAI has to do is come up with a reliable helicopter that is adapted for naval conditions. Ideally a navalized T-925 should be positioned somewhere between the NH-90 NFH and the AW-101 ASW version, so 12-13 tons is a good spot. Range/Endurance should also be better than the MH-60R and here I think the T-925 needs improvement.