TR Army Artillery Systems & Projects

[TheInsider]

I guess why not? Fatah-iI is really good and cost effective.

Yeah Fatah 2 is a good system. Pakistan showing interest in a lot of Turkish products so offset deals will likely happen in the future.

 

[Khagan1923]

Although Fatah-iI is really good and Turkey doesn’t have anything similar in class for that range, but Roketsan could easily develop one. So, I really doubt TAF will want to buy it.

250km range? We have Bora for that. Why would we waste money on a product that we already possess. Makes no sense. Probably just a courtesy visit by officials.

 

[Afif]

250km range? We have Bora for that. Why would we waste money on a product that we already possess. Makes no sense. Probably just a courtesy visit by officials.

400km. It has better maneuverability than Bora from the looks of it.

 

[Khagan1923]

400km. It has better maneuverability than Bora from the looks of it.

No export is 250km. 400km is for the Pakistan Armed Forces.

Mushaks were also a waste of money.

In any case no need for this. If TSK wants Roketsan can carry out improvements on Bora and just sell them Bora-II.

 

[Yasar_TR]

No export is 250km. 400km is for the Pakistan Armed Forces.

Mushaks were also a waste of money.

In any case no need for this. If TSK wants Roketsan can carry out improvements on Bora and just sell them Bora-II.

Looking at this missile on the surface, it is similar to Bora.
Bora made for TAF has a 360+km range. We have seen in at least two firing videos how accurate it is as it hit it's targets with precision within less than a meter.

FATAH-2 uses Sat/nav and INS for precision strikes. We all know how Sat/Nav signals can be jammed in the battlefield.

There isn't enough technical data about the Fatah-2. But on the face of it, it isn't something we would be keen on getting interested in.

Besides with the arrival of Tayfun, we have a much more developed version of the Bora with more extended range - probably in to 7-800km level. According to recent information given, Tayfun can manoeuvre during it' s flight, to make itself more difficult to be detected.
Also it flies most of it's trajectory at hypersonic speeds according to the time and distance given for it's first flight. It is also just as accurate as Bora.
In addition it is mentioned that it can hit moving targets as well as being fired from naval platforms.

When there is a missile called Cenk in the pipeline too, why on earth should TAF be interested in Fatah-2?

 

[Afif]

Looking at this missile on the surface, it is similar to Bora.
Bora made for TAF has a 360+km range. We have seen in at least two firing videos how accurate it is as it hit it's targets with precision within less than a meter.

FATAH-2 uses Sat/nav and INS for precision strikes. We all know how Sat/Nav signals can be jammed in the battlefield.

The reason Bora is so precise is because of the same GPS*+GLONASS** Aided INS***. Which can be jammed also. No INS only missile can hit at 300km with 1/2 meter precision.

 

[Trakya_forever]

First it is a MLRS system not a tactical balistic missile. So it is cheaper than Bora.
It has 8 missiles in a truck so it has a big firepower.
If there is a joint production we will have 400 km variant.
We need something having a longer range than TRG300 as GMLRS. Fatah can be a solution as a ready system.
We can use our own trucks and antijam GNSS during the production.
It can be a nice solutions for our needs.

 

[Trakya_forever]

Meanwhile jamming balistic missiles is not simple and easy. You need strong and complex systems. They are not drones.

 

[Yasar_TR]

First it is a MLRS system not a tactical balistic missile. So it is cheaper than Bora.
It has 8 missiles in a truck so it has a big firepower.
If there is a joint production we will have 400 km variant.
We need something having a longer range than TRG300 as GMLRS. Fatah can be a solution as a ready system.
We can use our own trucks and antijam GNSS during the production.
It can be a nice solutions for our needs.

With all due respect, according to the limited information released on this missile :

Quote:
Fatah-II seems to be a two-round G-MLRS, based on the video released by Pakistan's military media wing. The rocket is “equipped with ...
Unquote.

In other words two-round Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System. Not 8 rounds.

They are however smaller and More economically produced than similar missiles. Hence giving them easier expendability.

It is true that anti jamming systems applied to these missiles make them quite a bit less susceptible to outside interference. But nevertheless it is a fact that GPS jamming is there to be tackled with.
The Bora missile uses GNSS Aided INS navigation system. This improves accuracy compared to Stand alone GNSS and INS.

Understanding Pakistan’s Rationale for the Fatah-II Rocket

The new guided multiple-launch rocket system upgrades Pakistan’s deterrent as India brings its Cold Start Doctrine closer to fruition.

thediplomat.com

 

[EternalTurk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1754152249566355948

 

[Tornadoss]

What is the diameter of Fatah II?

 

[Afif]

What is the diameter of Fatah II?

Closer to or 610mm.

 

[Chocopie]

I think there‘re some conflicting specs about Fatah II going around.

According to an article by Pakistani Qura defense media, there was a much slimmer, older Fatah II design before the new much heavier Fatah II was tested and revealed.

Pakistan Tests New Fatah-II Surface-to-Surface Missile - Quwa

On 27 December 2023, the Pakistani military announced that it test-fired a new 400 km-range surface-to-surface missile, the Fatah-II.

quwa.org

„In 2023, Global Industrial and Defence Solutions (GIDS), the commercial arm representing a number of Pakistan’s state-owned defence contractors, showcased a “Fatah-II” that was an evident evolution of the Fatah-I. This earlier Fatah-II inherited the core design attributes of the Fatah-I, but with an improved range of over 250 km and accuracy of 10 m circular error probe (CEP), compared to the Fatah-I’s range and accuracy of 140 km and 50 m CEP, respectively.

In contrast, this ‘new’ Fatah-II not only offers a far greater range at 400 km, but it also seems to be a larger missile. For example, the Fatah-I used an eight-cell launch system (which the original Fatah-II design would have likely reused), while the new Fatah-II seems to leverage a twin-cell system. Finally, the design of the new Fatah-II also exhibits several key differences, such as the lack of fins on the nosecone, for example.“

1. Older, slimmer Fatah II with cone wings, 150 kg warhead and 250 km range with CEP <10m

GIDS - Road-to-Future

www.gids.com.pk

2. Tested new heavier Fatah II (domestic version) with 400 km range and CEP <50 m or CEP <10 m?
(exact diameter? warhead mass?)

3. Export version shown at WDS 2024 with 290 km range, 365 kg warhead and CEP <50 m (exact diameter?

WDS 2024: Pakistan's GIDS showcases its Fatah-II MRL - European Security & Defence

During WDS 2024, held in Riyadh from 4-8 February, Pakistan’s GIDS presented its largest stand ever, which included the Fatah-II MRL.

euro-sd.com

Pakistan unveils advanced Fatah-II rocket system with extended range a

google_ad_client = "pub-4068738923530102"; /* 468x15 data sheet menu top dark green */ google_ad_slot = "3500417247"; google_ad_width = 468; go

www.armyrecognition.com

This CEP <10 m for the new 400 km Fatah II reported widely might be false stemming from data of the smaller Fatah II design shown on GIDS producer website.

If the CEP is in reality <50 m, that‘s worse than similar caliber guided multi-launch rockets with high precision from US, Israel, Korea or China.

Edit: warhead data, link added.

 

[Afif]

It has a CEP of 10 meters. (I don't think TSK will go for something with 50 meters CEP)

 

[Chocopie]

It has a CEP of 10 meters. (I don't think TSK will go for something with 50 meters CEP)

Over the distance of 400 km? They never said it was tested at this distance, only stated the capable range.

At WDS the export model had declared 290 km range and below 50 m CEP. Why offering a worse CEP than established competitors in the export market?

Lowering range under 300 km because of MTCR is usual practice but not worsening the precision of your product.

 

[TheInsider]

Pakistan successfully tested a ballistic missile capable of carrying MIRV warheads. A big strategic capability increase.

 

[Afif]

Pakistan successfully tested a ballistic missile capable of carrying MIRV warheads. A big strategic capability increase.

Something just now, or from the previous year?

 

[Chocopie]

Pakistan successfully tested a ballistic missile capable of carrying MIRV warheads. A big strategic capability increase.

Sure, what‘s the connection to long range GMLR or TBM?

A nuclear BM with MIRV has CEP of 500 m to several kilometers. No high precision needed for an atmospheric nuclear blast.

Btw, Ababeel‘s claimed MIRV capability from 2017 is unproven:

Pakistan’s claim that Ababeel uses MIRV technology has not be verified and remains a point of debate. Reports indicate the missile can be outfitted with both nuclear and conventional warheads.

MIRV Doubts
Some experts have expressed skepticism as to whether Pakistan has indeed surmounted the various technological hurdles required for MIRVed missiles. MIRV warheads are typically much smaller than unitary warheads, and thus require greater miniaturization. It is unclear if the country has manufactured a miniaturized nuclear warhead small enough to use in a MIRV.6 The missile’s larger nose-cone section, however, may be an attempt to compensate for a lack of warhead miniaturization.

Ababeel | Missile Threat

The Ababeel is Pakistan’s first surface-to-surface medium range ballistic missile (MRBM), reportedly capable of carrying Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs). The three-stage, solid-fuel missile was unveiled in a test on January 24, 2017. Ababeel Development Development of...

missilethreat.csis.org

 

[Merzifonlu]

MDK Project system qualification was completed successfully.

It reduces the distribution of artillery ammunition to less than 50 meters at all elevations and ranges, has sensitive, delayed, approach and timed fuze modes, is insensitive to electronic deception, jamming and electronic warfare methods, has a 5-fold increase in effectiveness compared to unguided ammunition, and can track multiple ammunition simultaneously in the air. With its and guidance capabilities, MDK will be the precision strike force of Turkish artillery.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1763097213918458028

Very good news!

 

[Kartal1]

MDK Project system qualification was completed successfully.

It reduces the distribution of artillery ammunition to less than 50 meters at all elevations and ranges, has sensitive, delayed, approach and timed fuze modes, is insensitive to electronic deception, jamming and electronic warfare methods, has a 5-fold increase in effectiveness compared to unguided ammunition, and can track multiple ammunition simultaneously in the air. With its and guidance capabilities, MDK will be the precision strike force of Turkish artillery.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1763097213918458028

Poor man's "Escalibur".