TR Defence Exports & Updates

[_Mu_]

I also didn't mentioned Wagner usage of Bayraktars. The name of Bayraktar even uttered next to a junta and Russians is enough for our dear friends from all around the world to start slandering Turkiye let alone civilian casualties.

A whole UN report was written because of a 7kg drone with questionable reputation because it has an AI implemented in it and it can follow routes autonomously. They presented it as a weapon that got out of a Terminator movie, searching, finding and destroying whatever it sees while this has nothing to do with the reality. Today we sell TB-2s with which they are hitting civilians and tomorrow we will sell them Kizilelmas. This is wrong. Turkish weapons must not be labeled as the cheap toys with which dictators are killing their own citizens and Turkiye must do whatever is needed to prevent this from happening.

Well, I may have confused your comment with others I have seen recently. I completely understand your point of view, and I certainly agree with you about the need not to give free rein to the support of military regimes whose main function is to oppress their people, and that is the only thing that matters. Forget the rest, because in this region of the world it has no meaning whatsoever.Perhaps the Haftar-Wagner, Greece, Cyprus, France alliance is not far away...
I recently read some reports, and I shared one of them here, that most of the recommendations of the top European research centres believe that Turkey's policy in this region is one of the most successful policies and a real threat to the influence of all the traditional players, and that they must not only learn from it, but find all possible opportunities for cooperation... The recent rumours about Turkish-American cooperation in Somalia also fit into this context.
So I think that some of what I sometimes see here is a terrible distortion, that Turkey supports them with some cheap weapons and the story is over. The team of the state that is responsible for this matter is in fact running it with success that everyone can testify to, and I think they see very well what you mentioned. We hope that this transitional period will end quickly, and that if there is a need for such policy that leaves innocent victims now, it will not be so in the future.

 

[Kartal1]

Well, I may have confused your comment with others I have seen recently. I completely understand your point of view, and I certainly agree with you about the need not to give free rein to the support of military regimes whose main function is to oppress their people, and that is the only thing that matters. Forget the rest, because in this region of the world it has no meaning whatsoever.Perhaps the Haftar-Wagner, Greece, Cyprus, France alliance is not far away...
I recently read some reports, and I shared one of them here, that most of the recommendations of the top European research centres believe that Turkey's policy in this region is one of the most successful policies and a real threat to the influence of all the traditional players, and that they must not only learn from it, but find all possible opportunities for cooperation... The recent rumours about Turkish-American cooperation in Somalia also fit into this context.
So I think that some of what I sometimes see here is a terrible distortion, that Turkey supports them with some cheap weapons and the story is over. The team of the state that is responsible for this matter is in fact running it with success that everyone can testify to, and I think they see very well what you mentioned. We hope that this transitional period will end quickly, and that if there is a need for such policy that leaves innocent victims now, it will not be so in the future.

The latest claims about misuse are from Somalia, but in Somalia we can do a lot to prevent this from happening. While Somalia has its own problems, there still is some kind of stability left. In situations as that in Mali and Ethiopia we can't do much. These countries are under constant pressure and the environment is suitable for coups. We know the recent history of Mali and a coup in Ethiopia is prevented just 1 year ago. Due to this lack of stability even if we send advisors, give courses to personnel this knowledge and expertise can not be accumulated for long. Technology is a good thing to have and drones are a very good technologically advanced tool to keep in check terrorist organizations in the region, but just drones are not enough.

Wherever possible we must send advisors until the personnel and military officers adopt the needed expertise and adapt their rules of engagement and criteria according to a higher standard as the standard of TSK for example. And where this is not possible it is better not to export such weapons.

 

[_Mu_]

The latest claims about misuse are from Somalia, but in Somalia we can do a lot to prevent this from happening. While Somalia has its own problems, there still is some kind of stability left. In situations as that in Mali and Ethiopia we can't do much. These countries are under constant pressure and the environment is suitable for coups. We know the recent history of Mali and a coup in Ethiopia is prevented just 1 year ago. Due to this lack of stability even if we send advisors, give courses to personnel this knowledge and expertise can not be accumulated for long. Technology is a good thing to have and drones are a very good technologically advanced tool to keep in check terrorist organizations in the region, but just drones are not enough.

Wherever possible we must send advisors until the personnel and military officers adopt the needed expertise and adapt their rules of engagement and criteria according to a higher standard as the standard of TSK for example. And where this is not possible it is better not to export such weapons.

I'm the last one to put conspiracy first as an explanation, but I can't help but bring up the late Mr Hakan Fidan's talk about the botched Uludere air strike and the February 2012 raid by Turkish security forces on the PKK camp in northern Iraq that resulted in the deaths of 34 Turkish citizens, if these events can happen within the country's system and border, Imagine what could happen in a country like Somalia which is barely on its feet and the government there is by no means in full control, I am not saying they are innocent of guilt, I just don't know, but doesn't it raise suspicion after such a milestone of cooperation and the first successful, at least in PR terms, of targeting Al-Shaabab with Bayraktar, out of nowhere these incidents happen?
I also highly doubt that there aren't already Turkish military advisors there.
We'll see what comes out of this, but I personally take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Heartbang]

I also didn't mentioned Wagner usage of Bayraktars. The name of Bayraktar even uttered next to a junta and Russians is enough for our dear friends from all around the world to start slandering Turkiye let alone civilian casualties.

A whole UN report was written because of a 7kg drone with questionable reputation because it has an AI implemented in it and it can follow routes autonomously. They presented it as a weapon that got out of a Terminator movie, searching, finding and destroying whatever it sees while this has nothing to do with the reality. Today we sell TB-2s with which they are hitting civilians and tomorrow we will sell them Kizilelmas. This is wrong. Turkish weapons must not be labeled as the cheap toys with which dictators are killing their own citizens and Turkiye must do whatever is needed to prevent this from happening.

If they're willing to amplify the voice of the FUCKING AL-QAEDA to slander our name, that drags their name more than ours. It shows the desperation they're in.

Between great powers, shitflinging in all shapes and sizes happen all the time. Its a better response to fling some of our own right the fuck back, other than kvetching around about the caca they have thrown.

Keep calm and BTFO the Westoids and their puppets.

 

[Sanchez]

Huge tender if Otokar or Nurol can capture it. 1059 vehicles for Romania. One third will be direct built, rest will be built in Romania. ToT included. 1 Billion$ tender. Sherpa Light looks to be current favorite.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1701545340061495796

EXCLUSIV MApN pune la bătaie aproape un miliard de euro pentru 1.059 de blindate 4x4. Favoriții, americanii de la Oshkosh, nu au primit acceptul Congresului SUA să transfere tehnologie în România și nu vor participa

EXCLUSIV MApN pune la bătaie aproape un miliard de euro pentru 1.059 de blindate 4x4. Favoriții, americanii de la Oshkosh, nu au primit acceptul Congresului SUA...

defapt.ro

Otokar seems to be only entrant left! If they can sign this, i believe it will be the single biggest armored vehicle export to date. Joint production in Romania is mentioned, which of course makes sense for a deal this big. Romania would be the biggest user of Cobra II.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770506915799290366

Per the piece user quoted, it's a 1 billion$ program(without tax), with 9 total variants. With basic maths, it would be million apiece.

 

[boredaf]

Otokar seems to be only entrant left! If they can sign this, i believe it will be the single biggest armored vehicle export to date. Joint production in Romania is mentioned, which of course makes sense for a deal this big. Romania would be the biggest user of Cobra II.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770506915799290366

Per the piece user quoted, it's a 1 billion$ program(without tax), with 9 total variants. With basic maths, it would be million apiece.

That is extremely cheap, to the point that I doubt they are going to make much profit from this, and they are also talking about ToT, not just joint production. It looks like Otokar is accepting a bad deal just to get this tender.

 

[Nutuk]

Kinda like the landrover deal how Otokar started with military vehicles

 

[Afif]

That is extremely cheap, to the point that I doubt they are going to make much profit from this, and they are also talking about ToT, not just joint production. It looks like Otokar is accepting a bad deal just to get this tender.

I think it is a good deal for Otokar. Iirc, BD bought 102 Cobra ii for 600k each.

 

[Baryshx]

That is extremely cheap, to the point that I doubt they are going to make much profit from this, and they are also talking about ToT, not just joint production. It looks like Otokar is accepting a bad deal just to get this tender.

Considering the prices of labour, parts and iron and steel in Turkiye, it is very profitable.

Don't think in dollars, think in Turkish lira.

 

[Sanchez]

I think it is a good deal for Otokar. Iirc, BD bought 102 Cobra ii for 600k each.

We of course don't know anything about specifics except for "9 variants". I'm thinking it will include an ATGM carrier and the basic variant may come with an RCWS, so turrets will make up bulk of the cost. Otokar have been trying to expand into Europe tho and if they break even, it's a big win. Their civilian vehicles(busses) part of the company is already a money maker.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Turkey will not make any money from this business. OTOKAR will pay less tax in Turkey as a result of this deal.

an OTOKAR subcontractor, which is based in Europe, withdraws from a bank in Switzerland the sum as debt to pay the armored vehicles as a Credit for Romenia. In the end, the bank pays for the vehicles. And OTOKAR shows the exact same amount as an expense to the Turkish financial tax authorities in order to pay less tax. That's why everything is tax-free.

This is also a legal operation if a company wants to take its money out of the country and deposit it abroad. Legally, yes.... Etic,... No.

It's OTOKAR.

The method is also used by South Korean military companies. But South Korean companies get the money from South Korean banks. OTOKAR procures money from foreign banks, preferably from Switzerland. Who wins :The foreign bank, export customer and OTOKAR.

Who loses TÜRKIYE.

what is more interesting is that the French also made money indirectly from this business.

Now comes the question : Why did the Americans retreat? This method does not go through the American Congress. On the other hand, Americans themselves have their own American payment method for such transactions among NATO countries. The methods are well known. Turkey also has such concepts from TÜRK EXIMBANK or other domestic banking method. Now comes the other question: Why did OTOKAR not take out a Credit from the parent company's own banks? Do you know which banks?

 

[what]

First if you could provide sources to your claims, that would be nice.

We have no official results or any official documents, so your claims seem highly speculative.

But still Turkey does not lose in any scenario, where do you think those profits will go or be reinvested? Which company is gaining value and will further invest in the next generation of products? Otokar.
Where? Turkey. Who? Turks.

 

[Kitra]

That's why everything is tax-free

Do you really want to know why it is tax-free sale?
Companies pay tax on profit, not on sales for most products. Especially on exported products.

Now, do Otokar deal with business activities to reduce their tax? Yes, like every other company in the world.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Turkey will not make any money from this business. OTOKAR will pay less tax in Turkey as a result of this deal.

an OTOKAR subcontractor, which is based in Europe, withdraws from a bank in Switzerland the sum as debt to pay the armored vehicles as a Credit for Romenia. In the end, the bank pays for the vehicles. And OTOKAR shows the exact same amount as an expense to the Turkish financial tax authorities in order to pay less tax. That's why everything is tax-free.

This is also a legal operation if a company wants to take its money out of the country and deposit it abroad. Legally, yes.... Etic,... No.

It's OTOKAR.

The method is also used by South Korean military companies. But South Korean companies get the money from South Korean banks. OTOKAR procures money from foreign banks, preferably from Switzerland. Who wins :The foreign bank, export customer and OTOKAR.

Who loses TÜRKIYE.

what is more interesting is that the French also made money indirectly from this business.

Now comes the question : Why did the Americans retreat? This method does not go through the American Congress. On the other hand, Americans themselves have their own American payment method for such transactions among NATO countries. The methods are well known. Turkey also has such concepts from TÜRK EXIMBANK or other domestic banking method. Now comes the other question: Why did OTOKAR not take out a Credit from the parent company's own banks? Do you know which banks?

It is worth to mention that KOC has been a champion of most tax payments multiple times over the years, even after Gezi and their clear dispute with the government they were still the highest tax payers in the country.

 

[OPTIMUS]

First if you could provide sources to your claims, that would be nice.

We have no official results or any official documents, so your claims seem highly speculative.

But still Turkey does not lose in any scenario, where do you think those profits will go or be reinvested? Which company is gaining value and will further invest in the next generation of products? Otokar.
Where? Turkey. Who? Turks.

The deal is as good as sealed. OTOKAR wants and needs to invest in Europe and build a factory in Romania, where armored vehicles will be built in the future. So they want to have a very important advantage against other Turkish manufacturers, so profit to Romania, where in Romania who Romens.

But American politicians can still blow up the deal. Because they are not satisfied that the French have their finger in it.

Do you really want to know why it is tax-free sale?
Companies pay tax on profit, not on sales for most products. Especially on exported products.

Now, do Otokar deal with business activities to reduce their tax? Yes, like every other company in the world.

In Europe, the companies pay tax on profits and on money turned over (CIRO).

It is worth to mention that KOC has been a champion of most tax payments multiple times over the years, even after Gezi and their clear dispute with the government they were still the highest tax payers in the country.

I didn't talk about the KOC here. If KOC were a European company, it would have been dismantled long ago. I don't mean that in a bad way or with any other intentions. In Europe, it is not allowed for a family to become so powerful. When you're in trading, you can't have a bank. If you're in media, you can't be in politics. Trade, politics, media, banking and culture are very strictly separated in Europe. You may only do action to one.

 

[Kitra]

W

In Europe, the companies pay tax on profits and on money turned over (CIRO).

Who have told you that? It is straight wrong information.

 

[Sanchez]

In this topic, people learn what it means for a private multinational company to do business.

 

[what]

There are no tariffs on vehicles sold from Turkey to the EU. Its not an advantage to have it in Romania, its probably a prerequisite from Romania for the deal. Similar to how other countries, such as us got production percentages or local input in F16, F35 or other products in the past.

 

[Sanchez]

Its not an advantage to have it in Romania, its probably a prerequisite from Romania for the deal.

It was. No country worth its mettle orders 1000 vehicles all to be built outside. Total delivery will take at least 2-3 years. 1/3 of program are to be imported, while rest will be built in Romania. That was why Oshkosh left the tender months ago as well, because US doesn't let US owned vehicles to be built elsewhere.

 

[Huelague]

There are no tariffs on vehicles sold from Turkey to the EU. Its not an advantage to have it in Romania, its probably a prerequisite from Romania for the deal. Similar to how other countries, such as us got production percentages or local input in F16, F35 or other products in the past.

Are you sure about that?