TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Ryder]

We don't hate the West. We hate their politics. How can a person hate the West? One should be ashamed of what the western civilization has brought to the world. As a Muslim, I ask, what has the so-called Islamic civilization brought to the world? What is their situation now? During the so-called Islamic age, progress was made in the field of science, reason and logic thanks to the translation of the works of the Greeks. Education and reading are also important here. So, again, Western civilization...

If Islamic countries do not prioritize reading, that is, education, nothing will happen in these countries. Because you cannot fool educated people. Thus, the shitty governments that are now in charge of almost all Islamic countries would not be able to come to power. Btw, the first word of the Qur'an is 'Read'.

China, Japan and Korea made progress thanks to the West and what they learned from the West. Then, of course, with education...

Al Jazari and his mechanical inventions would disapprove of the Islamic world just translating Greek knowledge then sitting on their asses with it.

Stop crediting the Romans and the Greeks for everything while ignoring the Turks, Arabs, Indians and the Chinese.

 

[Tonyukuk]

All Central Asian countries are starting to crack down on Islamization. This is probably due to Taliban getting ready for an ISIS style takeover.

US didn't leave all those weapons for no reason. Instead of destroying them, they left them there so Taliban can cause chaos in the future.

 

[Tonyukuk]

One thing I came to realized conservatives everywhere in muslims countries Hate the West almost no matter what.

However, what is surprising, for many progressive Turks, I see they also hate the West equally. Even though they prefer to live by Western ideals in their socio-cultural and political setting. (Liberal outlook on individual/personal life, secular outlook on collective society and despising anything remotely religious.) That is quite the opposite of how most Progressives and liberals in South Asia would view the West. Geopolitically, much more friendly outlook IMO.

Now i can fully understand how it can be competitive and confrontational geopolitically with the West (unlike in our region) as Turkish National interests often collides with those of the West, but it still baffling how does that results into outright demonization (of the West), paranoia and borderline conspiracy from otherwise educated people.

There's two reasons for this.

1) Turks, under Atatürk's command defeated a coalition of western forces. After their victory, Atatürk modernized the nation. It's unlike any other majority-Muslim nation, many of which simply emulated these reforms, but with little success. So secularism and modern lifestyle is a core part of Turkish identity, as it's something that was established by the founding father. Therefore secular people are very nationalistic, and that often means anti-western.
2) When Turkey aligned with the west, US influence started to pour in. As part of the Marshall Plan, the US started interfering in Turkish affairs. They reversed a lot of the changes that Ataturk made and covertly supported Islamists. By the 70s, there were a number of Tarikats which were created by western powers. There's CIA documents from decades ago which say that the Kemalist military must be replaced by a soft Islamist government.. It's easy to see why Secularists are anti-western.

 

[Asena_great]

"Nation comes first" is basically nationalism.

So everybody can follow their ideology but they must be nationalists as well? What kind of oxymoron is that? How can someone be, lets say communist, islamist or globalist and nationalist at the same time? That's like supporting Fenerbahçe and Galatasaray at the same time for anyone that knows basic definition of mentioned ideologies.

Also why people has to follow an ideology that is invented by the French 250 years ago? Are we living in a fascist state or something?

yeah in your eye interest of your tarikat şeyh should come first lol

 

[Asena_great]

All Central Asian countries are starting to crack down on Islamization. This is probably due to Taliban getting ready for an ISIS style takeover.

US didn't leave all those weapons for no reason. Instead of destroying them, they left them there so Taliban can cause chaos in the future.

yup and we have the problem with islamist at our border as you have mentioned.

@Tonyukuk im glad that you come back long time no see. i thought you left for good

 

[Ryder]

I disagree here. People in the West doesn’t give a damn about Turks or Turkey or anyone else. Like everywhere, people just want to live their life without being bothered. Those you describe are conservatives from the Balkans (Greece, Serbia, etc..)

I understand what you mean. The common people in general dont give a shit.

Regardless of who they are Arabs, Europeans, Chinese, Russians, Persians, Jews, Americans or even Australians.

Still this is different to geopolitical struggles.

 

[Barry]

All Central Asian countries are starting to crack down on Islamization. This is probably due to Taliban getting ready for an ISIS style takeover.

US didn't leave all those weapons for no reason. Instead of destroying them, they left them there so Taliban can cause chaos in the future.

Return to monkey Tengri

 

[Ryder]

Caucasus is heating up as usual.

Turkiye's geography is cursed.

 

[Afif]

There's two reasons for this.

1) Turks, under Atatürk's command defeated a coalition of western forces. After their victory, Atatürk modernized the nation. It's unlike any other majority-Muslim nation, many of which simply emulated these reforms, but with little success.

No, there are success other than Turkey. And they aren't little. Anyway, I see what are you saying.

 

[No Name]

No, there are success other than Turkey. And they aren't little. Anyway, I see what are you saying.

It's crucial to note that Turkish progressivism didn't spring from Ataturk alone, but rather, it was a byproduct of the transformative reforms set in motion by the Ottoman Sultans in the early 19th century. These reforms, a direct response to Western interference and conflicts, laid the foundation for Turkish progressivism. It's not just about establishing a livable state, but also about forging a nation capable of standing up to and prevailing over the West.

From a historical perspective, progressive Turks' efforts to distance themselves from the confrontational root have often led to National humiliation and outright rejection by the West. This can be attributed to the Turks being the historic 'other' that Europeans used to define their own identity, a dynamic that persisted for nearly a millennium.

Overall, Turks, due to their history of being the non-white, non-Christian group that was able to conquer and rule over Christian Europeans, have a drastically different relationship with the West than other Nations. These differences have had cultural ramifications that have echoed through the generations until the current one.

 

[Corvus]

A better question is why do people have to follow a religion invented by Arabs 1400 years ago?

I don't remember saying such an absurd thing. On the contrary, I'm the one saying nobody has to follow any certain religion or ideology.

Believe or insult whatever you want. I don't care.

If you are done with your fallacies, let's come back to the real point of our discussion.

What happened with the claim about SOCAR protesters are being Islamists and all that islamophobic&oxymoronic gibberish?

 

[Corvus]

Corvus is opposed to our constitution, and there is a large, dangerous group in Türkiye who continually threaten to change the constitution and essentially threaten the statehood of Türkiye.

There is no difference between them and FETÖ or PKK at this point. In fact many of them are aligned with the aforementioned groups.

Constitutions are not dogmas. They're written by people and they often change if needed.

Atatürk, with his great vision, opposed the Ottoman constitution and established the Republic.

That being said, I don't remember me "opposing the constitution". On the contrary you are opposing it by imposing people a certain ideology.
*
You attack Islam -fine by me- and replace the constitution in the place of a holy book as if it's written by God, then declare me as a terrorist threat just because I said people don't have to be nationalists?? Sorry mate but you don't make any sense.

 

[TheInsider]

That's what i am trying to say, i just don't think West is out there to get anyone just because who they are.

The West certainly came to accept the reality that we are here and will be in the foreseeable future(it was a bitter pill for them to swallow) but the West will do everything to keep us at a manageable size sometimes in an outright hostile way and most of the times with underhanded tactics.

 

[Tonyukuk]

You're trying to save face.

A simple look at your post history unveils that you have no problem with Turkey becoming a refugee dumping ground.

Thank f*** you don't run this forum.

We're staring down the barrel of a shit storm because of the refugee crisis, but you care more about changing the constitution. GTFO man.

Constitutions are not dogmas. They're written by people and they often change if needed.

Atatürk, with his great vision, opposed the Ottoman constitution and established the Republic.

That being said, I don't remember me "opposing the constitution". On the contrary you are opposing it by imposing people a certain ideology.
*
You attack Islam -fine by me- and replace the constitution in the place of a holy book as if it's written by God, then declare me as a terrorist threat just because I said people don't have to be nationalists?? Sorry mate but you don't make any sense.

 

[Ryder]

Constitutions are not dogmas. They're written by people and they often change if needed.

Atatürk, with his great vision, opposed the Ottoman constitution and established the Republic.

That being said, I don't remember me "opposing the constitution". On the contrary you are opposing it by imposing people a certain ideology.
*
You attack Islam -fine by me- and replace the constitution in the place of a holy book as if it's written by God, then declare me as a terrorist threat just because I said people don't have to be nationalists?? Sorry mate but you don't make any sense.

The problem is lots of people believe the Ottomans did not have a consitituion which is pretty BS.

The Empire was 600 years old but people treat it as if they were living at Osman Gazis time.

The Empire has transformed itself numerous times but the popular discourse it was like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

Two vastly different states, different cultures.

If we gonna go by GDP. Congo even has a bigger GDP than the Roman Empire.

Osman Gazi lived in a nomadic tent like all Turkic people same with Genghis Khan. Overtime their descendants became more settled and lived in palaces as the empire grew.

No they were longer the Nomads but people who have now settled and live in a sedentary lifestyle.

Did Islam play a role in this? Yes and No. Lots of Nomads regardless if they are Turkic, Bedoiun and Berber living like their ancestors in the past who are Muslim but still live a nomadic lifestyle.

More to do with the fact that Nomads began to live in cities and their descendants were raised there overtime became more sedantary rather than religion playing a role. Turks becoming Muslim did help them settle in numerous parts of the Islamic World as we see in Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

Same story can be said about the Republic of Turkiye which is now 100 years old as the 1930s is different to todays Republic. Nothing stays the same.

 

[Tonyukuk]

Same story can be said about the Republic of Turkiye which is now 100 years old as the 1930s is different to todays Republic. Nothing stays the same.

Bro, things change I agree.

But this government isn't going to amend the constitution for a good reason. We all know they use it to facilitate their corruption.

 

[Corvus]

You're trying to save face.

A simple look at your post history unveils that you have no problem with Turkey becoming a refugee dumping ground.

Thank f*** you don't run this forum.

We're staring down the barrel of a shit storm because of the refugee crisis, but you care more about changing the constitution. GTFO man.

Save face? For what exactly? I wasn't the one falsely branding people as Islamists and then proven wrong.
*
This is a forum and I can freely express my ideas in any topic that I wish.

And how did you come to conclusion that I "care more about changing the constitution"? I never said such a thing. You're making up false conclusions based on an image in your mind.

 

[Ryder]

Whats im interested right now.

Is why is Mongolia so hestitant to joining the Turkic World while Hungary wants to join the Turkic Council?

Mongolia for decades in particular has never made any moves to get closer to Turkiye and the Turkic World in general.

Mongolia is better off getting closer with the Turkic World because not to mention its sandwiched between Russia and China. Russia and China treat Mongolia more like a buffer state but what happens in the future that Mongolia buffer state gets past its use by date?

 

[Tonyukuk]

Whats im interested right now.

Is why is Mongolia so hestitant to joining the Turkic World while Hungary wants to join the Turkic Council?

Mongolia for decades in particular has never made any moves to get closer to Turkiye and the Turkic World in general.

Mongolia is better off getting closer with the Turkic World because not to mention its sandwiched between Russia and China. Russia and China treat Mongolia more like a buffer state but what happens in the future that Mongolia buffer state gets past its use by date?

They were part of TAKM but I don't think that's around anymore.

 

[Aqerdf]

Whats im interested right now.

Is why is Mongolia so hestitant to joining the Turkic World while Hungary wants to join the Turkic Council?

Mongolia for decades in particular has never made any moves to get closer to Turkiye and the Turkic World in general.

Mongolia is better off getting closer with the Turkic World because not to mention its sandwiched between Russia and China. Russia and China treat Mongolia more like a buffer state but what happens in the future that Mongolia buffer state gets past its use by date?

I don't know, but they're looks like so happy about giving yearly herd animal (fvking sheep tax! and in 21st Century!) taxation to China. So much of holliness from Cenghis's grandchildrens, yeah.

Jokes aside, from geopolitically, Mongolia is done afaik. Soviets and PRC carved them up so bad. And remaining leftovers are holding tightly to FETÖ for for US linkage.