TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[Sanchez]

I mean 21 missiles ready is not too bad, but still wouldn't last for too many engagements on its own. Ada class needs hisar asap.

Add 8-16 to 21, that's just 29-37 in target rich environment. Italians have everyone else beat in this. What we probably need is airburst rounds for our 76mm main guns. Greeks showed that even the 127mm can be effective against slow moving air targets. It's much cheaper and ships can carry not few tens, but hundreds of rounds. And if sufficient range is achieved, main gun can take the role off CIWS from missiles, leaving them for higher value and faster threats like ASMs.

 

[Anmdt]

So basically this?
Can be used against air threats too.

TAKS 100/40GFCS, 100/76GFCS, 100/127GFCS - ASELSAN

www.aselsan.com

Here are some shots.

This is typical gun fire control system. The munition is not configured for anything but onboard tracking systems approximates target distance and velocity and tells gun where to shoot at, dynamically also considering vessel's speed and motion. The gun measures munition's speed and feeds CMS of the platform on likelihood of engagement.

The system also has calibration feature, it fires at a blank spot, corrects the arrival and then uses calibrated data for engagement.

Guided and programmable munitions are something else, for guided one it needs a beam to ride on, programmable one needs to be told when to enable the fuse and burst.

 

[uçuyorum]

TCG İstanbul today

 

[uçuyorum]

Are the main cannon in Istif and Ada class equipped with airburst ammunitions for CIWS duty? Will the national 76mm have the same capability?

 

[Anmdt]

Are the main cannon in Istif and Ada class equipped with airburst ammunitions for CIWS duty? Will the national 76mm have the same capability?

Programmable airburst ammo is likely a no, if 76mm has a proximity fuse mode then likely yes. Ada-Class is equipped with SR version so with the higher rate of fire it becomes efficient in CIWS duties (along with efficiency of Aselsan TAKS - GFCS). Frankly, Aselsan's TAKS has such a good performance in all weather conditions and adaptable to different climates, environments. I have witnessed tests with twin-40mm in moderate sea conditions and it was nice to see stabilization and engagement efficiency, 76mm should be even better.

National 76mm is not matching to SR so the the CIWS duty will be limited or not efficient until they are introducing national 76mm programmable rounds or proximity fuse enabled versions.

Navy has been demanding an R&D for almost a decade, towards making varieties of smart 76mm rounds but at the another end we have MKE, which is a former institue and now a company, amazing us and Navy with their R&D and production capabilities. I don't think we have any trouble with controllers or chips to endure high G forces that can be made by Aselsan, it is more about the people who makes the rounds.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Programmable airburst ammo is likely a no, if 76mm has a proximity fuse mode then likely yes. Ada-Class is equipped with SR version so with the higher rate of fire it becomes efficient in CIWS duties (along with efficiency of Aselsan TAKS - GFCS). Frankly, Aselsan's TAKS has such a good performance in all weather conditions and adaptable to different climates, environments. I have witnessed tests with twin-40mm in moderate sea conditions and it was nice to see stabilization and engagement efficiency, 76mm should be even better.

National 76mm is not matching to SR so the the CIWS duty will be limited or not efficient until they are introducing national 76mm programmable rounds or proximity fuse enabled versions.

Navy has been demanding an R&D for almost a decade, towards making varieties of smart 76mm rounds but at the another end we have MKE, which is a former institue and now a company, amazing us and Navy with their R&D and production capabilities. I don't think we have any trouble with controllers or chips to endure high G forces that can be made by Aselsan, it is more about the people who makes the rounds.

So with that, and the fact that first I-Class ship is furnished with a 76mm Süper RAPID gun, is it not likely that given the choice, the navy will insist on having the same S/R Oto Melara gun to be fitted on to the rest of the I-Class ships? Or alternatively, insist on MKE to introduce the same.

As the relations have been warmer now between Italians and us, and knowing that we can make the same gun, they will be more inclined to sell to us at a much reduced price too. (If memory serves, they had already reduced their price after we introduced our version of the 76mm gun).

 

[Anmdt]

So with that, and the fact that first I-Class ship is furnished with a 76mm Süper RAPID gun, is it not likely that given the choice, the navy will insist on having the same S/R Oto Melara gun to be fitted on to the rest of the I-Class ships? Or alternatively, insist on MKE to introduce the same.

As the relations have been warmer now between Italians and us, and knowing that we can make the same gun, they will be more inclined to sell to us at a much reduced price too. (If memory serves, they had already reduced their price after we introduced our version of the 76mm gun).

Since making of national 76mm Italians have been generous with the offer, lowering the price, offering training kits-munitions and so on. But i think rest of I-class is planned with national 76 mm that is equilavent of compact. I see no motivation in MKE for moving towards to make a mechanism for SR equilavent. I think at this point Navy accepts an inferior solution since they have been part and stem of the project. Navy tends to accept an inferior product if they have been the part or party of a project.

In my opinion if we are sure of programmable and proximity fuse options for national 76 mm rounds, then national 76 mm would serve the purpose of air defense as better as SR version. If we are not, then we had better had SR on I-Class and utilize national 76mm on ADKG and similar light designs, auxillaries and so on.

It is another question if MKE can manage the supply chain and catch up with the building schedule of 7 I-Class and 8 ADKG, and future planned 7 TTHB until 2030, plus the exports.

 

[boredaf]

It is another question if MKE can manage the supply chain and catch up with the building schedule of 7 I-Class and 8 ADKG, and future planned 7 TTHB until 2030, plus the exports.

It would be even better for us, imo, if this gets MKE to expand its facilities. Not just for 76mm naval gun and its ammo but for overall production.

 

[zio]

High subsonic missiles fly at approximately 300 m/sn so superrapid fires 2 ammo per second its not logical to me but 40/70 mm double barrel makes 10 ammo per second,more logic.We made 40mm but nobody cares it,what a pity.

 

[Sanchez]

It is another question if MKE can manage the supply chain and catch up with the building schedule of 7 I-Class and 8 ADKG, and future planned 7 TTHB until 2030, plus the exports.

For some reason, I really doubt it. Really hope the gun is not what delays the deliveries in the future, huge possible bottleneck.

To add, we don't know if the navy is interested in the 76mm gun for CIWS duty, just that it would be great to have it as option. But it won't be an option unless MKE builds an SR equivalent or Aselsan works on 76mm ATOM rounds.

 

[Afif]

For some reason, I really doubt it. Really hope the gun is not what delays the deliveries in the future, huge possible bottleneck.

To add, we don't know if the navy is interested in the 76mm gun for CIWS duty, just that it would be great to have it as option. But it won't be an option unless MKE builds an SR equivalent or Aselsan works on 76mm ATOM rounds.

I don't think merely 76 ATOM is going to be enough. it has to be maneuverable.

 

[TheInsider]

MKE can produce enough 76mm guns, so it is not a bottleneck. MKE heavy gun/barrel production facility has enough capacity to build more than enough 76mm guns. The rest of the system is outsourced.

Production capacity as of 2018.
60 guns for Fırtına SPH
200 120mm mortar
1000 60&80mm mortars
250 guns for Boran Howitzer

 

[Sanchez]

2021 MKE

"As you know, we are producing ATOM ammunition together with our distinguished company ASELSAN. In this context, we are developing particle and smart ammunition for 76/62mm."

MKEK’nin 2023 Vizyonunda Hedef 76mm’den Sonra 127mm Deniz Topu’nu da Millileştirmek!

İstanbul Fuar Merkezinde ikincisi düzenlenen SAHA EXPO 2021 Savunma Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayi Fuarında görüşme fırsatı bulduğumuz MKEK Genel Müdürü Yasin AKDERE, halen kalifikasyon süreci devam eden 76

www.defenceturkey.com

3 years passed, where is it?

MKE can produce enough 76mm guns, so it is not a bottleneck. MKE heavy cannon/barrel production facility has enough capacity to build more than enough 76mm guns. The rest of the system is outsourced.

Production capacity as of 2018.
60 guns for Fırtına SPH
200 120mm mortar
1000 60&80mm mortars
250 guns for Boran Howitzer

This is the same MKE that boasts with delivering 7 Borans a year so I'd prefer seeing them in real life first.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I don't know anything about marine systems. So I'll ask you to be tolerant with the question I'm going to ask now. Are periscopes still used in submarines?

 

[UkroTurk]

I don't know anything about marine systems. So I'll ask you to be tolerant with the question I'm going to ask now. Are periscopes still used in submarines?

I am also not an expert but i think periscopes are supposed to be .


Regarding 76mm smart ammunition for air defense, i would recall Göksur . I think we need mini autonomous and seperated VLS container for Göksur missiles. Multiple launches aren't better?

 

[TheInsider]

3 years passed, where is it?


This is the same MKE that boasts with delivering 7 Borans a year so I'd prefer seeing them in real life first.

Irrelevant. Boran is a niche product. It faced difficulties in the development phase but once it got military qualification (Land forces tested the shit out of that product) it is delivered and EXPORTED quickly. It was a difficult project for a company like MKE where every kg is important due to air-transportation and when you make it light recoil forces become a headache. There are not a lot of lightweight air-transportable howitzers around.
MKE has good production capacity. 35mm gun systems were never a bottleneck for the Korkut or air defense cannon project. TSK never had a problem for M60T or T-155 guns.

Once the 76mm naval gun system gets military qualification, MKE can produce them. MKE doesn't produce the servos, cooling system etc. Those might be a bottleneck. I don't know if producer companies has enough production capacity for outsourced systems.

 

[Quasar]

I don't know anything about marine systems. So I'll ask you to be tolerant with the question I'm going to ask now. Are periscopes still used in submarines?

View attachment 70234

https://dam.hensoldt.net/m/21b4ae3b45d1d8e3/original/SERO-420-and-OMS-150-English.pdf

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1827475145201532982

AND concerning the capsule of SUB ATMACA and GEZGİN

View attachment 70236 View attachment 70235

 

[boredaf]

Not to derail the discussion but I was trying to look at specs for Stamp-G and realised Aselsan just took all Stamp variants out of their Turkish website, they are still there in the English version. (but that one seems like it wasn't updated when the Turkish version was)

I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with new fascination with Unirobotics or not.

 

[Sanchez]

Irrelevant. Boran is a niche product. It faced difficulties in the development phase but once it got military qualification (Land forces tested the shit out of that product) it is delivered and EXPORTED quickly. It was a difficult project for a company like MKE where every kg is important due to air-transportation and when you make it light recoil forces become a headache. There are not a lot of lightweight air-transportable howitzers around.
MKE has good production capacity. 35mm gun systems were never a bottleneck for the Korkut or air defense cannon project. TSK never had a problem for M60T or T-155 guns.

Once the 76mm naval gun system gets military qualification, MKE can produce them. MKE doesn't produce the servos, cooling system etc. Those might be a bottleneck. I don't know if producer companies has enough production capacity for outsourced systems.

Boran is not a niche product, it's a 105mm gun built to replace hundreds of 70 year old M101 and M116s in service. If anything, 76mm gun is the niche product that will maybe see 50-60 built during its production cycle discounting spare barrels, if we're lucky.

Boran was exported to Macedonia and Bangladesh, per claims by giving lines slated for KKK. Boran production is woefully slow. Per 2022 reports, Macedonia will get 6 Borans in 2 years and 12 more between 2029-2031.
"The first battery, each consisting of 6 BORAN Howitzers, is planned to be delivered to the Macedonian Army within 2 years, while the remaining 2 batteries are planned to be delivered to the Macedonian Army in 2029-2031."

Makedonya'dan BORAN Obüsü Siparişi | SavunmaSanayiST

Makedonya, Türkiye'ye 18 adet BORAN Obüsü siparişi verdi. Her birinde 6 adet obüs olan 3 batarya BORAN Obüsü, Makedonya Ordusu'na teslim edilecek.

www.savunmasanayist.com

In the original document signed in 2009, MKE was to deliver 104 Borans to army in 54 months or 4.5 years. That's 12 a year. We have more than 500 old mid caliber guns in service. Changing all of them(not currently planned or ordered) would take 20 years.
"For the 105mm Boran Howitzer Project, the Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation is developing the weapon system and Aselsan is developing the fire control system. According to the first contract, the contract period for the development of the howitzer was signed for 49 months, while the serial production phase of 106 105 mm howitzers was signed for 54 months."

Havadan Taşınabilir Obüs (BORAN) Projesi ve Özel Detaylar

Dağlık alanda ve arazide operasyonel birliklerin ihtiyacı olan yoğun ateş desteğinin düşmana görüntü vermeden sağlanması söz konusu olduğunda, akla ilk gelen düşük maliyetli silah sistemlerinin başında havadan taşınabilir hafif çekili obüsler gelmektedir. Soğuk savaşın sona ermesinden sonra...

www.defenceturk.net

Pretty normal to expect something similar for the 76mm gun and I will reserve my judgment whether MKE can deliver on time.

 

[Anmdt]

I don't think merely 76 ATOM is going to be enough. it has to be maneuverable.

It has to be maneuverable to reduce amount of rounds to engage a missile, allowing a single gun mount engage as many as possible threats. With the unguided rounds it is still possible but the possibility decreases dramatically. Programmable munition still yields as high possibility as a guided round with sufficient numbers are fired to create a pellet cloud.