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Fairon

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Later prototypes (or maybe he means iterations) of KAAN's engine will have thrust vectoring. (at like 04:55 min)


So TS1400 is beyond ready now, this is perfect news. Like previously said, we should give some TS1400 powered T625 o Gendarmerie while waiting civilian testing is completed.

Also preliminary work already been started for TS3000, this is also good. Finally we hear something in this regard.
 

Sanchez

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So TS1400 is beyond ready now, this is perfect news. Like previously said, we should give some TS1400 powered T625 o Gendarmerie while waiting civilian testing is completed.
I understand "ready to enter service" from "beyond ready". TS1400 is not entering service yet.

The first 3 T625J Helicopters are powered by the LHTEC CTS800-4AT Turboshaft Engine, while the other 17 T625 Helicopters are planned to be powered by the TEI-TS1400 Turboshaft Engine. However, the qualification schedule for the TEI-TS1400 has not yet been finalized. If qualified, it will be used in 17 helicopters; if not, the LHTEC CTS800-4AT Turboshaft Engines previously supplied by TAI will continue to be used.
 

Fairon

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I understand "ready to enter service" from "beyond ready". TS1400 is not entering service yet.

Beyond ready is my interpretation to be honest. They abused the engine so bad(to a point that it might considered a crime) and engine still kept running. It is only waiting for civillian qualificaiton and I think(and some people said that here before) it hasn't got that yet only because the civillian schedule. TEI is satisfied with the engine, TUSAS is satisfied with the engine, the pilots are satisfied with the engine.(As per Mr. Aksit's words)

It is not entering service yet that is true but if needed it is ready to enter service as you said. That is the reason I think we should not wait civillian qualification for the next batch of T625.(or at least power some of them with TS1400 )
 

zio

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Hürkuş is produced than they said its heavy lets make a lighter one,ok its first aircraft we made in Türkiye,than we produced Gökbey than they said its heavy lets make a lighter one,that is enough and no one says ”why” you are making wrong second time.
 

zio

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SSB think BMC power batu motor can be used on milgem based ships as a secondary machine-generator.Ada class corvettes uses 4x 700kw mtu diesel motors.BMC power batu is capable of 1100kw.Although BMC power utku diesel motor is capable of 830 kw thats more powerful from milgem/mtu secondary motor and also ready earlier than batu it is not chosen.We do not know how many batu/generator will be used on one milgem ship,previously ada class uses 2 generators on peace time 3 generatır uses on wartime,4th generators used on passage of turkish streets.Mean time cost guard command thinks on right direction to use 4x tubitak rute özgün motor on their 600 class project as a main machine however to use 4 main motor is cumbersome but more secure interms of failure of one or two motor.
 
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Anmdt

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SSB think BMC power batu motor can be used on milgem based ships as a secondary machine-generator.Ada class corvettes uses 4x 700kw mtu diesel motors.BMC power batu is capable of 1100kw.Although BMC power utku diesel motor is capable of 830 kw thats more powerful from milgem/mtu secondary motor and also ready earlier than batu it is not chosen.We do not know how many batu/generator will be used on one milgem ship,previously ada class uses 2 generators on peace time 3 generatır uses on wartime,4th generators used on passage of turkish streets.Mean time cost guard command thinks on right direction to use 4x tubitak rute özgün motor on their 600 class project as a main machine however to use 4 main motor is cumbersome but more secure interms of failure of one or two motor.
Secondary machine? Where did you get the term? It is not even referred to, by direct transtlation, in Turkish that way.

You need a little read into marine generators, i highly suggest you to do some reading and learn MCR. You can't simply slap an engine into a generator coupling and expect it to run at the maximum capacity. The commercial engines often run in a window capped by 85%, in continous regime. Hence the maximum continuous rate - MCR. This is not the case for military grade engines, they might run even at lower rates.

Check some catalogue, both MTU and MAN provides kVA output and kW of the used engine and the MCR. Also mind the difference between kVA and kW.

I don't think MTU slaps a Tank engine into being a marine generator, they have a line of generator (also MAN does the same) fine tuned for the duty.
 

zio

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Secondary machine? Where did you get the term? It is not even referred to, by direct transtlation, in Turkish that way.

You need a little read into marine generators, i highly suggest you to do some reading and learn MCR. You can't simply slap an engine into a generator coupling and expect it to run at the maximum capacity. The commercial engines often run in a window capped by 85%, in continous regime. Hence the maximum continuous rate - MCR. This is not the case for military grade engines, they might run even at lower rates.

Check some catalogue, both MTU and MAN provides kVA output and kW of the used engine and the MCR. Also mind the difference between kVA and kW.

I don't think MTU slaps a Tank engine into being a marine generator, they have a line of generator (also MAN does the same) fine tuned for the duty.
I am sure you know better than SSB experts on marine propulsion systems.
 

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Anmdt

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I am sure you know better than SSB experts on marine propulsion systems.
"Potential"
any engine that matches in power output and rpm has a potential. I haven't denied possibility of BATU being used as a marine generator.

Yes i am a naval architect and been so for more than a decade, and most of people in SSB are project managers, they don't do engineering if this is your point. I am in contact with them more frequently than you may imagine, there more than few non naval-architect engineers in Naval systems division of SSB.

First of all your 700 kW was wrong, Milgem has 750 kVA generators. You don't list kW, but kVA or kWe while speaking of a marine generator.

Your following statement was also off point, since the diesels on Milgem generators run at lower MCR (if you have read my post you would have found out)

Although BMC power utku diesel motor is capable of 830 kw thats more powerful from milgem/mtu secondary motor and also ready earlier than batu it is not chosen

My point is UTKU can not be used to generate 750 kVA at the desired continous rate. Also it is not more powerful than MTU or MAN generators, it is less. Read my post, and do some reading on marine engines, generators.

Turning an engine into a marine generator simply requires more modifications and adjustments than turning an engine into a marine engine. A generator runs even after the engines stop and at varying loads, non-stop.

Existence of an engine does not automatically make it marine generator. BMC is still yet to test their first marine engines on the USVs (Levend), integration is still going on and tests will commence. You need years of experience to build up to make a generator since a failed generator is not something you can't make up at the open seas.

Tübitak's latest DE is more promising but not sure if people influenced by BMC will allow it through. Tübitak RUTE is far ahead in terms of understanding marine engines.

As for you other attached image;
The listed values are for 100% MCR, a high density engine runs at 50 to 60% MCR. Consider the conversion losses and power factor while converting from DE's power output to kVA. We don't simply adapt an engine just because it fits to required power with its 90-95% MCR, the engine is run at lower MCR purposefully, run at lower MCR, less load, less wear, higher MTBF and relaxed maintenance schedule and also; a spare of 60% at your will to boost up engine when you need, in case of emergency. Yes marine engines on naval platforms can run up to 110, 120% MCR for a limited time (sometimes a day). This is a compact engine is not preferred simply for being compact, in comparison to a medium density engine, more or less it occupies the same space, but it provides a better maintenance schedule and spare power.

Yes we should eventually adapt BATU or RUTE engines for marine generators and i am not against the idea, or in fact i support more than you do; at least to begin with this is a nice roadmap to follow, but it can't be rushed. I don't recall if follow up Istanbul Class orders or ADKG orders are planned to be equipped with these engines, either.

It will start with USVs and non critical platforms in service at the navy ports (pusher port tugboats) and from there they can move on to generators.
 

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Saithan

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I am sure you know better than SSB experts on marine propulsion systems.
Yes he does, good you noticed. Most of those opening their mouth and speaking to the public in SSB are most likely not experts, but politicians who wants to look good.

Lol @Anmdt you beat me to the reply :)
 

Anmdt

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Yes he does, good you noticed. Most of those opening their mouth and speaking to the public in SSB are most likely not experts, but politicians who wants to look good.

Lol @Anmdt you beat me to the reply :)
There are highly experienced people but most of the business they do is the project management, that is duty of SSB in overall. Managing the on-going projects, coordinating industry and academia, inspecting facilities and industrial organizations and so on. Some people believes that SSB serves as a research organization similar to DARPA.
 

zio

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"Potential"
any engine that matches in power output and rpm has a potential. I haven't denied possibility of BATU being used as a marine generator.

Yes i am a naval architect and been so for more than a decade, and most of people in SSB are project managers, they don't do engineering if this is your point. I am in contact with them more frequently than you may imagine, there more than few non naval-architect engineers in Naval systems division of SSB.

First of all your 700 kW was wrong, Milgem has 750 kVA generators. You don't list kW, but kVA or kWe while speaking of a marine generator.

Your following statement was also off point, since the diesels on Milgem generators run at lower MCR (if you have read my post you would have found out)



My point is UTKU can not be used to generate 750 kVA at the desired continous rate. Also it is not more powerful than MTU or MAN generators, it is less. Read my post, and do some reading on marine engines, generators.

Turning an engine into a marine generator simply requires more modifications and adjustments than turning an engine into a marine engine. A generator runs even after the engines stop and at varying loads, non-stop.

Existence of an engine does not automatically make it marine generator. BMC is still yet to test their first marine engines on the USVs (Levend), integration is still going on and tests will commence. You need years of experience to build up to make a generator since a failed generator is not something you can't make up at the open seas.

Tübitak's latest DE is more promising but not sure if people influenced by BMC will allow it through. Tübitak RUTE is far ahead in terms of understanding marine engines.

As for you other attached image;
The listed values are for 100% MCR, a high density engine runs at 50 to 60% MCR. Consider the conversion losses and power factor while converting from DE's power output to kVA. We don't simply adapt an engine just because it fits to required power with its 90-95% MCR, the engine is run at lower MCR purposefully, run at lower MCR, less load, less wear, higher MTBF and relaxed maintenance schedule and also; a spare of 60% at your will to boost up engine when you need, in case of emergency. Yes marine engines on naval platforms can run up to 110, 120% MCR for a limited time (sometimes a day). This is a compact engine is not preferred simply for being compact, in comparison to a medium density engine, more or less it occupies the same space, but it provides a better maintenance schedule and spare power.

Yes we should eventually adapt BATU or RUTE engines for marine generators and i am not against the idea, or in fact i support more than you do; at least to begin with this is a nice roadmap to follow, but it can't be rushed. I don't recall if follow up Istanbul Class orders or ADKG orders are planned to be equipped with these engines, either.

It will start with USVs and non critical platforms in service at the navy ports (pusher port tugboats) and from there they can move on to generators.
If the germans do not sell generator engines to Türkiye what would happen to our istif class project,we have to ready for that and hurry up and work hard and for the main engines,shafts,etc… should be on our agenda.
 

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Anmdt

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If the germans do not sell generator engines to Türkiye what would happen to our istif class project,we have to ready for that and hurry up and work hard and for the main engines,shafts,etc… should be on our agenda.
If Germans don't sell RENK transmission then what happens? Who else makes cross-connect gears? Are you aware that the generators are literally the faintest concern you must have there.

Had problem issues with MTU, switched to MAN, problem solved. If another problem occurs then alternative suppliers are considered, this is as far as it goes.

If the germans do not sell generator engines to Türkiye what would happen to our istif class project,we have to ready for that and hurry up and work hard and for the main engines,shafts,etc… should be on our agenda.
Look, don't keep attaching images that you can't understand. MTU's output is given at 50-60 MCR, BATU's given at much higher. That is different. You can't run Mavi BATU at that MCR for long durations. Learn what an MCR is to begin with. Also if you are familiar with MTU's engine taxonomy, you would know that M91 is the drive (propulsion) optimized version of M51 that is capable of 1200 kW.

That means, the DE installed in the MTU's generator generates 1200 kW in normal loads, but only 700 kW is utilized, hence the 50-60 MCR. That's how SSB's report is slightly wrong. While BATU's output is given for an ideal condition, at 50-60 MCR it will be capped.
 

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Only a few countries produce combat trainers. The American ones are clearly outdated. Nobody is interested in the Russian ones. Although the Italian ones are in favor today, it seems to me that the Hurjet will be bought like hot cakes :)
The main limitation with Hurjet is it's engine, you can't sell it to anyone outside of US allies, and there is no program or even any slight talk or hint about a domestic engine for Hurjet(at least not yet) so even if it has the possibility of selling like hot cakes, Turkey won't be able to sell it as hot cakes for the reason i mentioned.

Which is really weird, Hurjet is already finished and will become a mature program much sooner than Kaan, i wonder why they don't consider a domestic engine for it?
 
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Fairon

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The main limitation with Hurjet is it's engine, you can't sell it to anyone outside of US allies, and there is no program or even any slight talk or hint about a domestic engine for Hurjet(at least not yet) so even if it has the possibility of selling like hot cakes, Turkey won't be able to sell it as hot cakes for the reason i mentioned.

Which is really weird, Hurjet is already finished and will become a mature program much sooner than Kaan, i wonder why they don't consider a domestic engine for it?

Simply, we don't have the manpower and money for the Hurjet engine.
 

boredaf

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That should raise questions about the KAAN engine,questions that most people outside Turkyie enthusiasts have already answered ,most people on this forum won't like the answer.....
What answer? That we prioritised an engine for Kaan and put all available people with expertise and experience on that project?
 

hugh

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That should raise questions about the KAAN engine,questions that most people outside Turkyie enthusiasts have already answered ,most people on this forum won't like the answer.....
Active TEI Turbine Engine Programs:

- TS1400(1400 shp turboshaft engine): in flight tests
- TF6000(6k lbf turbofan engine): on test bench
- TF35000(35k lbf thrust, 5th gen engine for KAAN): in preliminary design phase
- TS3000(3000shp turboshaft engine for T925 and T929 helicopters): newly initiated project

As you can see, we are already stretched thin. We can't afford to launch another major engine project.
 
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dBSPL

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Active TEI projects(turbine engines):

- TS1400(1400 shp turboshaft engine): in flight tests
- TF6000(6k lbf turbofan engine): being tested on bench
- TF35000(35k lbf thrust, 5th gen engine for KAAN): in preliminary design phase
- TS3000(3000shp turboshaft engine for T925 and T929 helicopters): newly initiated project

As you can see, we are already stretched thin. We can't afford to launch another major engine project.
++
Additionally, a turboprop is planned over the TS1400, and an afterburner variant for the TF-6000.
 

Fairon

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That should raise questions about the KAAN engine,questions that most people outside Turkyie enthusiasts have already answered ,most people on this forum won't like the answer.....

Not exactly. Kaan engine is one of the projects that money and manpower is directed.

Besides Kaan engine, there is TF6000/10000, TS1400, TS3000(Maybe not this exact name but engine for 10t helicopter) and various small engines that in design process. There might be derivetives from this engines as well(Maybe a marine engine from TF6000 or turboprop based on TS1400)

So when I say we don't have manpower or the money for the Hurjet engine, I mean TEI's hands are already full with the ongoing projects.
 

dBSPL

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Not exactly. Kaan engine is one of the projects that money and manpower is directed.

Besides Kaan engine, there is TF6000/10000, TS1400, TS3000(Maybe not this exact name but engine for 10t helicopter) and various small engines that in design process. There might be derivetives from this engines as well(Maybe a marine engine from TF6000 or turboprop based on TS1400)

So when I say we don't have manpower or the money for the Hurjet engine, I mean TEI's hands are already full with the ongoing projects.
How many countries in the world, other than China and the United States, have so many simultaneous aviation engine programs?
 
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