TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[godel44]

Do I really need to dissect that rag and spoon-feed you with it?

This is from page 8:

"Based on our calculation and respecting to the counter measure on TF-23 Block0, we can assume frontal aspect RCS as -20dbsqm (0.01m2). TF-23 Block1, with advanced magnetic coating and RAM panel layer, it could reach RCS value for X Band 10GHz as -25dbsqm (0.003m2)."

Do you see any math on that paper to support this? Did they provide any insight on what their variables were and what assumptions they have made? Are you just taking their word for it?

From page 9:

"Assuming all other parameters are the same apart from emitting power rate (40kW/25.5kW), it corresponds to range 12% higher for TF-23 KAAN radar. So with a certain margin, safely it can be assumed 175km for RCS 1m2 targets"

They assume F35 has 160km detection range against 1 sqm target. How do they know this? They also somehow calculate BÜRFİS's range as 175km against 1sqm target. Again, they say we calculated but there is no calculation shown on the paper? Like why is it not 150km or 300km?

Then there are these tables:

View attachment 72723

Do you see any evidence or proof of where they got the RCS figures of these aircrafts. Like how can you know the radar signatures of KIZILELMA or KAAN when they're going through iterative changes from prototype to prototype(with not RAM material)? And as if the charade wasn't enough, they've added in a KIZILELMA Block2 and its RCS when there's not even a picture of the drone?

Maybe you should ask yourself why are you so easily convinced? Why do you think that this "paper" is more credible than the daily chatter we do about KAAN on this forum? Or are we doing science here?

I am not easily convinced and I am convinced by neither the paper nor your drivel. I am just making a point that proper criticism is not name-calling.

They start most of their RCS calculations by modeling the geometry of the aircraft in Matlab and they at least confirm the directional correctness of their approach by comparing their results for known aircraft to existing literature. In a field shrouded in secrecy with design process of some aircraft still ongoing, this is a best-effort kind of approach. Of course, some parameters will change but they are at least trying to point in the right direction by making best use of the available data. If you approach it as a prima facie calculation and not the final one, maybe you will do it more justice.

 

[hugh]

I am not easily convinced and I am convinced by neither the paper nor your drivel. I am just making a point that proper criticism is not name-calling.

They start most of their RCS calculations by modeling the geometry of the aircraft in Matlab and they at least confirm the directional correctness of their approach by comparing their results for known aircraft to existing literature. In a field shrouded in secrecy with design process of some aircraft still ongoing, this is a best-effort kind of approach. Of course, some parameters will change but they are at least trying to point in the right direction by making best use of the available data. If you approach it as a prima facie calculation and not the final one, maybe you will do it more justice.

I won't continue this convo as it's going nowhere productive and I think I've made my point. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[godel44]

Mods, I'm fucking begging you, ban the use of this clown as a source on this forum. Nothing he claims I've seen has any bearing on reality. He is literally talking out of his ass all the time, leading to nothing constructive or even remotely objective. Sharing his bullshit here is no different than sharing random twitter accounts or what some dayı says in a kahvehane.

And all the members who believe this clown, I recommend taking some logic and critical thinking courses so that you can judge what you see for yourselves before believing everything someone on a screen yells. You don't have to be a scientist or an engineer to see this guy is a charlatan, having common sense is enough.

Please stop quoting him here, it is seriously embarrassing and infuriating.

Yeah, that guy is nuts.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Mods, I'm fucking begging you, ban the use of this clown as a source on this forum. Nothing he claims I've seen has any bearing on reality. He is literally talking out of his ass all the time, leading to nothing constructive or even remotely objective. Sharing his bullshit here is no different than sharing random twitter accounts or what some dayı says in a kahvehane.

And all the members who believe this clown, I recommend taking some logic and critical thinking courses so that you can judge what you see for yourselves before believing everything someone on a screen yells. You don't have to be a scientist or an engineer to see this guy is a charlatan, having common sense is enough.

Please stop quoting him here, it is seriously embarrassing and infuriating.

Yeah, he's like the uncle when he gets too excited and starts adding stuff from his own to make the small nugget of info he's got into a mountain of inflated hyperbole just to please the audience and brown-nose others.

 

[Turkic]

RCS values of 0.01 to 0.003 for Kaan is depending on those charts from TurAF presentation from 2021. I wonder how no one of you remembered this presentation when you heard "0.01" and "0.003". I slided trough the chat thinking I'll see one of you told about this. I didn't. I don't think we'll have a higher RCS value than 0.01 considering TurAF will get what they want at least. I can't talk about how much lower it will be. They used the highest estimated RCS value for Kaan Block 0 and lowest estimated for Block 1 in the article. Not an article to take serious imo even tho they made some good summaries of the info revealed for Kaan till today.

 

[Turkic]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1869116231590257041

Gökhan Uçar stating Kaan will be flying with domestic engine in 6-7 years. So cut the bs @UcanTost . No delay in plans.

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1869116231590257041

Gökhan Uçar stating Kaan will be flying with domestic engine in 6-7 years. So cut the bs @UcanTost . No delay in plans.

This is an unfortunate and unnecessary statement by Mr Ucar. It is not a pissing contest. We have our own handicaps in developing our national fighter jet and S Koreans have theirs. If we had the access they have to US parts, we too would have utilised them for our jet.

S Korean plane KF21, has always been a gen 4++ jet from get go. It is to complement their f35 jets that they already have in their inventory, which we have none of. It does not have internal weapon bays for a start. But that doesn’t mean that it will not have it in later iterations. As our saying goes: Ours is still a bird on a branch. Theirs is already a bird in a cage. They are setting up for serial production within a year. Heck! We are not even sure we will have engines for the Block 10 KAANs.

 

[Turkic]

This is an unfortunate and unnecessary statement by Mr Ucar. It is not a pissing contest. We have our own handicaps in developing our national fighter jet and S Koreans have theirs. If we had the access they have to US parts, we too would have utilised them for our jet.

S Korean plane KF21, has always been a gen 4++ jet from get go. It is to complement their f35 jets that they already have in their inventory, which we have none of. It does not have internal weapon bays for a start. But that doesn’t mean that it will not have it in later iterations. As our saying goes: Ours is still a bird on a branch. Theirs is already a bird in a cage. They are setting up for serial production within a year. Heck! We are not even sure we will have engines for the Block 10 KAANs.

I posted the video as a claim for the statements about domestic engine. No comment on KF-21.

 

[2033]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1869116231590257041

Gökhan Uçar stating Kaan will be flying with domestic engine in 6-7 years. So cut the bs @UcanTost . No delay in plans.

"just a shell" is very wrong. We bought the Altay tank and the howitzers from South Korea, we bought many other things from South Korea. They are as good as they can be towards us. It is a pity that there is such an unqualified person at this level in the defense industry presidency.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Please keep in mind that we are developing a fighter aircraft that works, even if this aircraft just reaches the performance of a actual Rafale or Eurofighter Tranche 3/4 as a platform, even then it will be enough for Turkey.
Because in the end it is just a step for further steps that will follow to develop better systems.

I can only repeat it and this should also be in people's minds, we are not a country that has decades of experience in these areas like the USA, France, Great Britain or China/Russia.
We started from scratch, India is still busy with their 3D renderings and blueprints.
This just shows how difficult it is to have an entire ecosystem that meets the requirements and is capable of producing a complex modern fighter aircraft. India is struggling because no one wants to help them without asking for something in return. There is a basic rule that no one helps a future Competitor or Potential Rival.

So you should recognize and respect what our boys are achieving here. That's definitely not a matter of course

 

[UcanTost]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1869116231590257041

Gökhan Uçar stating Kaan will be flying with domestic engine in 6-7 years. So cut the bs @UcanTost . No delay in plans.

These types of comments from the people that are on the project or atleast in the management, proves my point:

6-7 years for domestic engines for MMU? I should go back to engineering school because I must've missed timemachine tech

 

[Turkic]

I should go back to engineering school because I must've missed timemachine tech

I agree with you for the first time. It's been 7 years since the preperation for development also the development itself of a domestic engine started. If we add another 7 years, it's a pretty fair time to design an engine.

 

[UcanTost]

I agree with you for the first time. It's been 7 years since the preperation for development also the development itself of a domestic engine started. If we add another 7 years, it's a pretty fair time to design an engine.

"DESIGN"

 

[IC3M@N FX]

"just a shell" is very wrong. We bought the Altay tank and the howitzers from South Korea, we bought many other things from South Korea. They are as good as they can be towards us. It is a pity that there is such an unqualified person at this level in the defense industry presidency.

I don't know, maybe he was misquoted, but what's the point of badmouthing the airplane of a country like South Korea.
If we hadn't gotten help from the Koreans, it would have been much more difficult for us.
If he really meant that, someone should reprimand him and he should apologize, even if he is right. South Korea is one of the few countries that really helped us where they could and were allowed to - they could have gotten in trouble from the EU & USA in other ways punitive tariffs & co on their goods but they still helped

 

[Turkic]

"DESIGN"

Do I need to mention it specifically so that you understand that I also mean prototype production and testing processes ?

 

[UcanTost]

Do I need to mention it specifically so that you understand that I also mean prototype production and testing processes ?

Why and what are you disagreeing with me then?

 

[Turkic]

Why and what are you disagreeing with me then?

Just your unreasoned posts. I'm okay if you tell us why will not Kaan be ready in the next 10 years and I find the reason logical or at least arguable. So what I want is a reason. Not much.

 

[UcanTost]

Just your unreasoned posts. I'm okay if you tell us why will not Kaan be ready in the next 10 years and I find the reason logical or at least arguable. So what I want is a reason. Not much.

Statement: Kaan+35k engine won't be ready before 2040, by 2040 warfare will look very different.

Argument: Insufficient funding, timeline of US engine programs. Current ongoing wars indicating huge increase in drones

 

[Turkic]

Statement: Kaan+35k engine won't be ready before 2040, by 2040 warfare will look very different.

Argument: Insufficient funding, timeline of US engine programs. Current ongoing wars indicating huge increase in drones

Reducing the Time and Cost of Testing Engines | NASA Spinoff

spinoff.nasa.gov

It says 1 billion dollar per engine development and then states the difference between development time periods of commercial and military engines. They stated the difference between commercial and military one when there is. So I will assume no difference in price considering no difference stated.

Published in 2004 so 1 billion dollars then is approximately 1.67 billion dollars today. Let's add some technological advancement gap and make it 2.5 billion. This is also the predicted cost for engine of Tempest. The F135 costed 10 billion but it's not a suitable engine to compare because of vertical take-off stuff. Safran and MTU signed for 3.5 billions for FCAS. So let's say it 3 billions as a average cost. I guess this money is already saved by giving the F-16 modernisation program to TAI, even if it is more than 3 billion.

And it's stated as 10 years to develop a military engine to Nasa. Since they have a lot of know-how and we are rookie, I'll add 5 more years. And let's say real designation process started at 2020 but not in 2017 (when TRMotor established). It still towards us to 2035 not 2040. And you stated "Kaan will not be ready in 10 years even with F110". Kaan likely to be ready with TF-35K around 2035 at latest. And much earlier with F110. According to these data and some guesses of mine.

 

[UcanTost]

Reducing the Time and Cost of Testing Engines | NASA Spinoff

spinoff.nasa.gov

It says 1 billion dollar per engine development and then states the difference between development time periods of commercial and military engines. They stated the difference between commercial and military one when there is. So I will assume no difference in price considering no difference stated.

Published in 2004 so 1 billion dollars then is approximately 1.67 billion dollars today. Let's add some technological advancement gap and make it 2.5 billion. This is also the predicted cost for engine of Tempest. The F135 costed 10 billion but it's not a suitable engine to compare because of vertical take-off stuff. Safran and MTU signed for 3.5 billions for FCAS. So let's say it 3 billions as a average cost. I guess this money is already saved by giving the F-16 modernisation program to TAI, even if it is more than 3 billion.

And it's stated as 10 years to develop a military engine to Nasa. Since they have a lot of know-how and we are rookie, I'll add 5 more years. And let's say real designation process started at 2020 but not in 2017 (when TRMotor established). It still towards us to 2035 not 2040. And you stated "Kaan will not be ready in 10 years even with F110". Kaan likely to be ready with TF-35K around 2035 at latest. And much earlier with F110. According to these data and some guesses of mine.

Yes, I stand by that. Kaan won't be combat ready before 2035. 35k engine combat ready 2035 LATEST is a pipedream. There is a huge difference between Hurjet (Can't beat older T50 sales wise yet) and MMU projects.

The article doesn't make sense. It costs a lot more than 1billion usd for a 10year military engine program even in 2004. Budget (so far, more to come) for FCAS engine is 3.5b usd. Total program (estimated so far) is 100b+ usd.

Anways, I made my statement and I've been here for 15 years. We'll see in the future.