TR Air-Force EF Typhoon

[TurkWolf]

I think we only bought them to send a message to the US.
This is just another consequence of the reckless S-400 decision made by our leaders.
If we were still in the F-35 program, the parts we produced would have paid for our jets, and we would have made a profit. Now, we are forced to buy the most expensive 4th-generation jet in the world.
And don't bring up Israel. Getting kicked out of the F-35 program was 100% because of the S-400

Funnily enough, I actually think the whole S‑400 saga was the same thing.a “message to the US.” I can’t even remember the exact justification people were giving back then, but I do remember a lot of loud voices saying it was a brilliant move, that we didn’t need the F‑35, and that this was some kind of strategic 4D chess move. Looking back, the reasoning was funny then and it’s still funny now.

 

[Sanchez]

It hurts to see such a step back

Big words for a country who's most potent fighter is a 00s F-16. Even with Kaan online, EF would still be our most kinematically potent fighter. And we need that kind of kinematic potency re Greece. We always did. They got Mirages, then Rafales; we didn't do jackshit for 40 years.

KE is probably the future, KE might one day be as capable as a fighter jet. That's not today, and won't be in this decade.

 

[Afif]

Big words for a country who's most potent fighter is a 00s F-16. Even with Kaan online, EF would still be our most kinematically potent fighter. And we need that kind of kinematic potency re Greece. We always did. They got Mirages, then Rafales; we didn't do jackshit for 40 years.

KE is probably the future, KE might one day be as capable as a fighter jet. That's not today, and won't be in this decade.

Bro, just my humble opinion.
KAAN with F110 is better than Eurofighter. And if you receive KAAN in 2028 and Eurofighter in 2030, well, I wonder if the amount being spent on 20 Eurofighter ($10 billions+) could have been diverted to up the production of KAAN and buy some additional F110 to deliver 60/80 KAAN in 2028-2032 period instead of 40 airframe. (TAI did say they had the capacity to produce 24 KAAN a year.) I think it was a realistic option.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Bro, just my humble opinion.
KAAN with F110 is better than Eurofighter. And if you receive KAAN in 2028 and Eurofighter in 2030, well, I wonder if the amount being spent on 20 Eurofighter ($10 billions+) could have been diverted to up the production of KAAN and buy some additional F110 to deliver 60/80 KAAN in 2028-2032 period instead of 40 airframe. (TAI did say they had the capacity to produce 24 KAAN a year.) I think it was a realistic option.

Tusas has always had issues with production quantity and delivery time and that 24 aircraft per year is a target that will take time

 

[Nutuk]

EF is being built right now, Hürjet fighter version doesn't even exist yet. You trash talk EF's performance in real world all the while you want us to put all eggs on Hürjet which has just flown so far, and wasn't even really designed for battle unlike the EF. Or KE, which has only munition tests to its name.

Everything you mention is future development and none of it is guaranteed to be become a fact far faster than EF, and not to mention even capable of achieving its performance levels. Not to mention, and I am amazed at your ability to simply pretend like this issue doesn't exist, Hürjet is COMPLETELY at the mercy of the yanks or Europeans for its engine. Nobody can guarantee that we will be able to get the engines we need for it. What happens if the US blocks the engine sale for it?

So, wanting to bet everything on Hürjet, a trainer that can hit none of the performance points of EF, which is slaved to foreign countries because of its engine and hoping that KE and Anka-3 (two drones that cannot keep up with Hürjet with their current engine options btw) can make up the difference is borderline insane.

On Hurjet there are much more engine alternatives in the class of F404 than the F110.
Yes the F404 engine is chosen but we are absolutely not dependent at the mercy of Yanks to replace it by a similar alternative, whereas F110 had very few alternatives (just looking from technical point).

You miss the point buddy, EF does not only mean being dependent on the aircraft but also dependence on MBDA for weaponry that are integrated on that plane (which is the even worse part)

A plane without missiles is what?

 

[Nutuk]

Bro, just my humble opinion.
KAAN with F110 is better than Eurofighter. And if you receive KAAN in 2028 and Eurofighter in 2030, well, I wonder if the amount being spent on 20 Eurofighter ($10 billions+) could have been diverted to up the production of KAAN and buy some additional F110 to deliver 60/80 KAAN in 2028-2032 period instead of 40 airframe. (TAI did say they had the capacity to produce 24 KAAN a year.) I think it was a realistic option.

Exactly my point, thank you for putting it out so clear

 

[Nutuk]

Tusas has always had issues with production quantity and delivery time and that 24 aircraft per year is a target that will take time

Maybe, but it is not only TAI now producing / assembling aircraft. We revived TOMTAS as well = more capacity

We are now experiencing the same as we experienced with our shipyards, taking step back is delaying a whole sector. Had we diverted funds for foreign ships, would we have build the TF2000 now?

Very difficult decisions but investing in a 4th gen fighter (we are investing for the next 30-40 years) in which we have zero input is at least from technical point not sound (I leave out the politics behind which are the determining factor)

 

[Saithan]

Bro, just my humble opinion.
KAAN with F110 is better than Eurofighter. And if you receive KAAN in 2028 and Eurofighter in 2030, well, I wonder if the amount being spent on 20 Eurofighter ($10 billions+) could have been diverted to up the production of KAAN and buy some additional F110 to deliver 60/80 KAAN in 2028-2032 period instead of 40 airframe. (TAI did say they had the capacity to produce 24 KAAN a year.) I think it was a realistic option.

You are also assuming KAAN is going to be delivered on time. How goes with Russias 5th gen ?

Imagine if we don't get KAAN in working and capable conditions in 5-8 years, TuAF forced to accept them, and let the. Rot in the hangar because they're flying coffins.

Imagine the worst possible outcome. I'd rather have EF in hand than gamble on the fickles of fate.

 

[Samba]

On Hurjet there are much more engine alternatives in the class of F404 than the F110.
Yes the F404 engine is chosen but we are absolutely not dependent at the mercy of Yanks to replace it by a similar alternative, whereas F110 had very few alternatives (just looking from technical point).

You miss the point buddy, EF does not only mean being dependent on the aircraft but also dependence on MBDA for weaponry that are integrated on that plane (which is the even worse part)

A plane without missiles is what?

You build a fighter around its engine. You just cannot swap it.

Your metrics don't mean anything at all. You are not realistic. You ask for dreams come true rather than tangible options.

 

[Nutuk]

Sure there will be minor adjustments to inlet etc. when swapping engine. But an aircraft can be very well designed to have some engine room for alternatives (Kaan and Kizilelma are the examples)


With EF we have zero input and zero room to make any changes. We have to ask the consortium even to integrate our own missiles for hefty charges.

Bottom line the EF decision is not taken from technical considerations, it is purely political. (IMHO a very wrong decission)

 

[Saithan]

Sure there will be minor adjustments to inlet etc. when swapping engine. But an aircraft can be very well designed to have some engine room for alternatives (Kaan and Kizilelma are the examples)


With EF we have zero input and zero room to make any changes. We have to ask the consortium even to integrate our own missiles for hefty charges.

Bottom line the EF decision is not taken from technical considerations, it is purely political. (IMHO a very wrong decission)

We most likely have asked for our standard munition to be configurated into the EF already. So EF will be delivered capable of firing off our missiles. Even SOM since it was developed for F35 and they likely already have the information.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Nutuk bro, you are logically correct in your line of thought. But there are more variables here than a straightforward 2x2=4.

First of all, Hurjet as it is can never be anything more than a trainer. It may be used by some small country as a LCA. But for a country like Turkiye to even contemplate it as a light combat aircraft, especially to be used on a carrier is ludicrous. It would mean redrawing everyhing from scratch. You change the engine, you need to alter the airframe and aerodynamics. Slapping a different engine on it doesn’t make it a LCA. Besides what engine do you think they will use?
F414? EJ200? Well, according to your above claims they will also make us dependent on foreign producers.
Hurjet is designed primarily for training prospective pilots. It doesn’t have enough power, enough payload capacity, enough technology to even compare it with a F16, never mind an EF.

As per @Strong AI ’s above post, EFs are being purchased with access to their relevant source codes to allow us to integrate all our present and future munitions and missiles. Plus they are coming with a very large quantity of weapons package. By the time they are all here, we should have Gokbora and Gökhan ramjet powered a2a missiles to use on them too.

Do you think the airforce is not aware of what you are suggesting? They know it very well that whatever Tusas is promising is only good on paper. In reality things change. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They know that Kaan has a lot of road to cover, before it becomes fully operational.

Bottom line is, the purchase of EF Typhoons is the correct decision.
By the way it is not a 4th generation plane. But a 4.5 generation one. In air superiority format it has one of the smallest RCSs around in its class. All missiles are carried in recessed pylons under it’s belly and wings.so as not to detract from it’s low observable delta wing structure.
With ECRSMK2 Aesa radar it has such powerful EW capability that it renders the aircraft to be near stealth fighter level. The large GaN/GaAs hybrid Aesa radar is so powerful that it can make adversaries’ radars ineffective by damaging their electronics. The plane we are buying may look like the first Typhoons in early 2000s. But airframe and aerodynamics of the plane together with its electronics and weapons have since evolved and the plane is to be usable post 2050s even 2060s.

 

[boredaf]

On Hurjet there are much more engine alternatives in the class of F404 than the F110.

And what engines would that be? I really would love to see you list more than 3 that are actually realistic.

Yes the F404 engine is chosen but we are absolutely not dependent at the mercy of Yanks to replace it by a similar alternative,

You know what, fuck it, I'll answer it for you. There are only 2 engines that can be fitted into Hürjet that aren't subject to US approval or from Russia or China, and those are cannot be used without significant structural changes. EJ200 is significantly longer than F404 while also having smaller diameter and the French engine is significantly shorter and thinner. Neither of them can be used on Hürjet without the plane going to what would pretty much be a redesign.

You miss the point buddy, EF does not only mean being dependent on the aircraft but also dependence on MBDA for weaponry that are integrated on that plane (which is the even worse part)

Other people have already told you that not only we have ordered a massive amount of missiles but also have already negotiated integrating our own weaponry as well. On top of that, we have managed to use our own missiles on F-16s without messing with its source code and Aselsan has already used that system to use Western made bombs from Russian planes for Azerbaijan. If shit hits the fan, doing that would be far easier than trying to find an engine for Hürjet.

A plane without missiles is what?

Given everything I just wrote in my previous paragraph, in a far better fucking shape than the one without an engine.

Sure there will be minor adjustments to inlet etc. when swapping engine. But an aircraft can be very well designed to have some engine room for alternatives

You are objectively wrong here and @Yasar_TR has already told you this. Swapping an engine with different dimension is not like just swapping a battery or a car engine.

With EF we have zero input and zero room to make any changes. We have to ask the consortium even to integrate our own missiles for hefty charges.

You have been proven wrong here as well, we have already taken the necessary steps to integrate our own munitions.

Bottom line the EF decision is not taken from technical considerations, it is purely political. (IMHO a very wrong decission)

And this is nothing but your own conjecture, made just to fit EF purchase into your own narrative. You are not looking at the facts, you are twisting them just to make your own "maybe"s sound more appealing than they actually are.

 

[Samba]

Sure there will be minor adjustments to inlet etc. when swapping engine. But an aircraft can be very well designed to have some engine room for alternatives (Kaan and Kizilelma are the examples)


With EF we have zero input and zero room to make any changes. We have to ask the consortium even to integrate our own missiles for hefty charges.

Bottom line the EF decision is not taken from technical considerations, it is purely political. (IMHO a very wrong decission)

You know 737 Max variants crashed 2 times bcs of same error. The underlying issue was engine change which changed the center of mass of the plane.

You CANNOT simply change engine with a few inlet adjustments and so .....

 

[Zafer]

F404 and F414 engines have the same dimesions while the F414 is only 75 kilo heavier, should be fairly easy to modify.

 

[Pokemonte13]

F404 and F414 engines have the same dimesions while the F414 is only 75 kilo heavier, should be fairly easy to modify.

I wouldn't say easier but the benefit would outweigh the cost especially for naval application where more thrust is needed

 

[Zafer]

A Baykar engine in the 20k lbf class can change the picture completely, yet there is no word about it.

 

[Spitfire9]

F404 and F414 engines have the same dimesions while the F414 is only 75 kilo heavier, should be fairly easy to modify.

I imagine F414 needs more kilos of air per second going into the engine, needing change to air inlets.

 

[Zafer]

I imagine F414 needs more kilos of air per second going into the engine, needing change to air inlets.

There will probably be more changes for the LCA and in particular the navy LCA versions.

 

[Pokemonte13]

A Baykar engine in the 20k lbf class can change the picture completely, yet there is no word about it.

Baykar never said that they would build a 20k engine only that they will build a turbofan as an alternative to Ukrainian and TEI engine but it will possibly be more that 10k lbf