Erdogan Is Turning Turkey Into a Chinese Client State

[ekemenirtu]

Absolutely simultaneous in the 1960's and 1970's, 苏修美帝，a slogan and catchphrase during that time, China's top two arch enemies. in the late 1970's China and US normalised their relations, in the late 1980's relations between China and USSR started to thaw.

Could you translate that slogan?

Chinese military, or a voluntary force, engaged the US military in Korea in the 1950s. I do not know if the Chinese army engaged the US military in open warfare in Viet Nam.

The border conflict between China and the USSR occurred in 1969. Did the Chinese military also fight the US military openly at that time?

 

[xizhimen]

Could you translate that slogan?

Chinese military, or a voluntary force, engaged the US military in Korea in the 1950s. I do not know if the Chinese army engaged the US military in open warfare in Viet Nam.

The border conflict between China and the USSR occurred in 1969. Did the Chinese military also fight the US military openly at that time?

Soviet revisionists and US imperialists. Many Chinese soldiers were sent to Vietnam to help the communists to fight US, there are several Chinese soldiers cemetries in Vietnam.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Soviet revisionists and US imperialists. Many Chinese soldiers were sent to Vietnam to help the communists to fight US, there are several Chinese soldiers cemetries in Vietnam.

Russian soldiers have been sent to Syria since the Syrian uprising of 2011. However, Russia never declared war against Syria or fought a war against the Syrian Arab Republic.

Did China declare a war against the USA in Vietnam or did Chinese military fight the US military in Vietnam? In the same way that China fought the US military in Korea or the Chinese and Soviets fought a short border war in 1969?

 

[xizhimen]

The border conflict between China and the USSR occurred in 1969. Did the Chinese military also fight the US military openly at that time?

China started to send troops to Vietnam from March. 1968. altogether 150,000 Chinese troops fought in Vietnam, Chinese anti aircraft units downed 1707 US aircrafts and captured 42 US pilots.

 

[Ardabas34]

I do agree with Goatsmilk on Turkey currently facing both Russia and US though.
Of course in proxy wars.
21st century warfare is proxy wars anyway.

In Syria and Iraq we fight against YPG and PKK which are US' proxies. They literally chose bunch of naked knee terrorists over their 70 years old allies, Turks. They are very determined to found their second Israel in Middle East, that is so called Kurdistan. Israel also wants this ''Kurdistan'' to be found as it will give them a permanent ally in the area and end their energy dependance. Also will be a base next to Turkey and Iran.
Because we are fighting against this US and Israel also started supporting Greece in East Mediterranian. They excluded Turkey from F-35 project which we have been contributing for decades and now because we are excluded our companies within the project will lose 11 billion dollars. Thats huge for a country like Turkey.
and what is more insulting is that they plan to give the F-35's we were going to receive to Greece.

Because Greek army can never face Turkey in land warfare US also blocked to only land passage in Dedeagac with a new army base. So that Turkey wont be able to invade Greece through land in a potential war. They gave the excuse of Russia of course but the real intention was so obvious that Turkish media spoke of this for days.

France has already sold 18 Rafales to Greece. Rafales are 4.5th generation fighter jets. Turkey was relying on F35's but since we are out of the project, Turkey only has 4th generation F16s now. We will upgrade them to block 70 and thats it. Our domestic TFX will only arrive in 2030.
So basically US and France try to contain us with Greece, Egypt and Israel. They make military exercises just below our shores.

Russia on the other hand along with Iran also support Pkk/Ypg in Iraq. Russia supports Haftar against Turkish backed Libyan government. We ,as a retalliation I think, support Ukraine against Russia. We sell them drones, military equipments and cooperate on military projects.

France supports Haftar and Greece in East Mediterranian against us. They are against our growing influence in Africa. Africa is traditionally a France colony but now China, Russia and Turkey are also taking pieces from the cake.
While Turkey seems aligned with China as of now, Russia is at least in Libya cooperate with France.

Egypt is also against ''Muslim Brotherhood movement'' aka ''ihvanism'' so it sees Turkish backed Libyan government as a threat and therefore is hostile to Turkey. It disagrees on a much benefitial EEZ agreement with Turkey and chooses Greece instead.

Turkey is extremely isolated and is at odds with pretty much everyone. Our only allies right now is Pakistan, Somali, Libyan government in Tripoli, Ukraine, Azerbaijan.
They are either ineffective agents or are just too far away.

 

[xizhimen]

Russian soldiers have been sent to Syria since the Syrian uprising of 2011. However, Russia never declared war against Syria or fought a war against the Syrian Arab Republic.

Did China declare a war against the USA in Vietnam or did Chinese military fight the US military in Vietnam? In the same way that China fought the US military in Korea or the Chinese and Soviets fought a short border war in 1969?

China was the decisive edge, there's no way Vietnam can win the wars without China's all out support.

Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge

“Best turn it into a bigger war…I’m afraid you really ought to send more troops to the South…Don’t be afraid of U.S. intervention, at most it’s no worse than having another Korean War. The Chinese …

namvietnews.wordpress.com

 

[ekemenirtu]

China started to send troops to Vietnam from March. 1968. altogether 150,000 Chinese troops fought in Vietnam, Chinese anti aircraft units downed 1707 US aircrafts and captured 42 US pilots.

View attachment 14534

I do not under Mandarin. Translations would be highly appreciated.

Viet Nam was divided into North and South Viet Nam.

Did the Chinese military venture into South Viet Nam?

Soviets also sent troops to assist Viet Nam against the USA.

However, the Soviets never declared war on the USA, or vice versa, over Viet Nam.

 

[ekemenirtu]

China was the decisive edge, there's no way Vietnam can win the wars without China's all out support.

Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge

“Best turn it into a bigger war…I’m afraid you really ought to send more troops to the South…Don’t be afraid of U.S. intervention, at most it’s no worse than having another Korean War. The Chinese …

namvietnews.wordpress.com

That says China never declared war on the USA. Chinese officials never admitted that Chinese troops were present in Viet Nam either.

 

[xizhimen]

That says China never declared war on the USA. Chinese officials never admitted that Chinese troops were present in Viet Nam either.

China didn't declare war on US in Vietnam, but US knew very well that China was fighting in Vietnam, US didn't say anything in fear that China would openly join the war like China did in Korea.

 

[ekemenirtu]

In this case, what is Erdogan exporting to China and what are they buying from China ? Erdogan has turned Turkey into a transit economy. Low index of economic complexity and export competitiveness. This is before the Belt Road starts going through Turkey to Europe, what will happen then ?

I have always wondered why Turkey, much like India, Indonesia or Iran, continue to suffer trade deficits?

In the case of Iran, their huge oil and gas deposits help them evade trade deficits, or perhaps a more appropriate statistic might be current account deficit.

The question is why do these great industrial powers, advanced hubs of technology, great scientific powers with their very affordable and sizable human resources, land, domestic market and immense potential fail to earn tens of billions of dollar a year from trade surpluses and current account surpluses.

Tiny Switzerland, where you are located right now, consistently posts one of the largest trade and current account surpluses in the world - year after year after year and that is despite a tiny population, not much in the way of natural resources, expensive labour, high cost of living and not a huge landmass either.

This is a question worth pondering over.

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

 

[ekemenirtu]

China didn't declare war on US in Vietnam, but US knew very well that China was fighting in Vietnam, US didn't say anything in fear that China would openly join the war like China did in Korea.

Somehow that fear was erased from the hearts and minds of American leadership when they decided to sail two carrier strike groups near the Taiwan Strait in 1995-96.

 

[xizhimen]

Somehow that fear was erased from the hearts and minds of American leadership when they decided to sail two carrier strike groups near the Taiwan Strait in 1995-96.

They always do, but they always try to avoid direct conflict with China. In 1974 China- south Vietam sea battle, the US seventh fleet was just nearby, but they refused south Vietnam ally's request to join the battle and chose to stand by and watched Chinese navy destroying their ally and took control of the Paracel islands.

South Vietnam requested assistance from the US Seventh Fleet, but the request was rejected.

Battle of the Paracel Islands

The Battle of the Paracel Islands was a military engagement between the naval forces of the People's Republic of China and Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) in Paracel Islands on January 19, 1974. The battle was an escalation of the Republic of Vietnam Navy's efforts to expel Chinese fishing...

military.wikia.org

 

[ekemenirtu]

They always do, but they always try to avoid direct conflict with China. In 1974 China- south Vietam sea battle, the US seventh fleet was just nearby, but they refused south Vietnam ally's request to join the battle and chose to stand by and watched Chinese navy destroying their ally and took control of the Paracel islands.

South Vietnam requested assistance from the US Seventh Fleet, but the request was rejected.

Battle of the Paracel Islands

The Battle of the Paracel Islands was a military engagement between the naval forces of the People's Republic of China and Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) in Paracel Islands on January 19, 1974. The battle was an escalation of the Republic of Vietnam Navy's efforts to expel Chinese fishing...

military.wikia.org

The fact that the United States, with barely 25% of Chinese population, can send destroyers, submarines and aircraft carriers near the Taiwan Straits is enough proof of its fear of Chinese response, I suppose.

On the other hand, in the entire supposedly 5,000 year long history of China, they are yet to rule over, conquer, defeat, subjugate or even eliminate a small country populated by Europeans.

Let this sink in for a moment.

The United States comes in all the way from across the vast Pacific Ocean, creates military bases on Japanese and Korean soil, keeps Korea divided and occupies Japan and South Korea while leaving Taiwan as an American dependency in effect, and all that China has done in retaliation is issue some political statements.

China - with more than 4 times the population of the United States - can not even venture out of its own immediate neighbourhood without American oversight and tacit approval.

The data is somewhat outdated and quite obviously incomplete but good enough for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[Akhtar]

I have always wondered why Turkey, much like India, Indonesia or Iran, continue to suffer trade deficits?

In the case of Iran, their huge oil and gas deposits help them evade trade deficits, or perhaps a more appropriate statistic might be current account deficit.

The question is why do these great industrial powers, advanced hubs of technology, great scientific powers with their very affordable and sizable human resources, land, domestic market and immense potential fail to earn tens of billions of dollar a year from trade surpluses and current account surpluses.

Tiny Switzerland, where you are located right now, consistently posts one of the largest trade and current account surpluses in the world - year after year after year and that is despite a tiny population, not much in the way of natural resources, expensive labour, high cost of living and not a huge landmass either.

This is a question worth pondering over.

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

Well. Look at this 2016 report from the world educational organization, OECD:

Page Rendering Error

OECD's dissemination platform for all published content - books, podcasts, serials and statistics

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

50% of the population could barely manage a level 1 in numeracy and literacy. Most exports are agriculture. The economy is not complex and the drone tech touted are still, at the end of the day, based on a turboprop engine. It's old. The balance of payments deficit is also worse with the import of oil.

 

[xizhimen]

The fact that the United States, with barely 25% of Chinese population, can send destroyers, submarines and aircraft carriers near the Taiwan Straits is enough proof of its fear of Chinese response, I suppose.

On the other hand, in the entire supposedly 5,000 year long history of China, they are yet to rule over, conquer, defeat, subjugate or even eliminate a small country populated by Europeans.

Let this sink in for a moment.

The United States comes in all the way from across the vast Pacific Ocean, creates military bases on Japanese and Korean soil, keeps Korea divided and occupies Japan and South Korea while leaving Taiwan as an American dependency in effect, and all that China has done in retaliation is issue some political statements.

China - with more than 4 times the population of the United States - can not even venture out of its own immediate neighbourhood without American oversight and tacit approval.

The data is somewhat outdated and quite obviously incomplete but good enough for the purposes of this discussion.

China never wants to dominate the world militarily, we never have western world domination colonial mindset, in the whole history, China tends to be an economic power rather than a military power, Chinese nation is an inward looking one, that's why we build wall around every home, village , city, and even the whole country. the first thing in the mind is always defending than attacking and expanding.

 

[Ardabas34]

Well. Look at this 2016 report from the world educational organization, OECD:

Page Rendering Error

OECD's dissemination platform for all published content - books, podcasts, serials and statistics

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

50% of the population could barely manage a level 1 in numeracy and literacy. Most exports are agriculture. The economy is not complex and the drone tech touted are still, at the end of the day, based on a turboprop engine. It's old. The balance of payments deficit is also worse with the import of oil.

I agree with the overall idea but about the turboprop engines of the drones...why would we need anything more advanced in drones? Does USA Predator or Israeli Herons etc use something different than turboprop engines?

I started to think such achievements are more related to political willingness/willpower than education system. Turkey had the potential to produce many things for at least 50 years but it didnt due to lack of political willingness. Military embargoes created that political willingness and we see the fruits of it.

 

[Turko]

Although Türkiye has own stealth-figter program, if PRC offered J-20 with chinese engine with ToT , i would think about it. J-20 is third stealth operational fighter with 2000km combat range, it would be great for over the Mediterranean sea.

 

[ekemenirtu]

China never wants to dominate the world militarily, we never have western world domination colonial mindset, in the whole history, China tends to be an economic power rather than a military power, Chinese nation is an inward looking one, that's why we build wall around every home, village , city, and even the whole country. the first thing in the mind is always defending than attacking and expanding.

The Uighurs who have suffered at least one instance of a Chinese invasion may disagree, obviously, if they are granted the right to speak against the CCP without let or hindrance.

The Tibetans, too, may not agree on this matter with you.

Historically, the "Han" ethnic group was never homogeneous and a cursory look at the Northern and Southern Han Chinese will also affirm this fact. Detailed investigations into their origins and discussions with experts on the topic will affirm the idea that Northern "Han" and Southern "Han" Chinese were of different stock and the Sinicization project was imposed upon some of them by some party or the other.

China is indeed a very insular nation and an inward looking country.

Other prominent examples of such inward looking countries are Japan and the United States.

Yet, if not for the United States military occupying Japan since 1945, a good chunk of Asia would have probably been under Japanese rule today.

A lot of American citizens are equally ignorant of the outside world as the Chinese are of the outside world. They, too, are an inward looking society. Yet, their interventions in recent decades specially in the wake of the demise of the USSR have surpassed that of all other countries combined during the same period.

Who is to say the Chinese, who love to imitate and are often derided for being imitators and also poor at it, will not take to imitating their American idols if they gain the opportunity?

 

[uzaysan]

After screwing the economy, He despertly need chinese swap money. Turkish central bank USD resevers are below zero (-45Billion $) Thats why he cant say anything against china while he always barks at westerners. We are gonna pay for it. Our kids gonna pay for it.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Well. Look at this 2016 report from the world educational organization, OECD:

Page Rendering Error

OECD's dissemination platform for all published content - books, podcasts, serials and statistics

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

50% of the population could barely manage a level 1 in numeracy and literacy. Most exports are agriculture. The economy is not complex and the drone tech touted are still, at the end of the day, based on a turboprop engine. It's old. The balance of payments deficit is also worse with the import of oil.

Most Turkish exports do not appear to be agriculture from available statistics.

https://www.trademap.org/Product_SelCountry_TS.aspx?nvpm=1%7c792%7c%7c%7c%7cTOTAL%7c%7c%7c4%7c1%7c1%7c3%7c2%7c1%7c1%7c1%7c1%7c1

According to that report, around $50 billion in trade deficit was incurred by the Republic of Turkey in 2020.

That is not an insignificant number if that trend repeats itself year after year after year. The cumulative deficits will have to be funded from external sources, which often means going back to the US or other Western countries for assistance.

To the best of my understanding, most developing nations face similar pressures. They do not enjoy the luxury of an Anglo Saxon brotherhood that Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK or the USA may enjoy. As a result, through their "reserve currencies" or their brotherhood, those countries can continue to enjoy trade and current account deficits year after year after year indefinitely while their currencies remain some of the most sought after "reserve currencies" and some of the most frequently traded in international foreign exchange trading centres. Interestingly, these foreign exchange trading centres are located primarily in Anglo Saxon countries or their current/former colonies such as New York, London, Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo.

Why other countries have never pursued this objective of trading foreign exchange within their own territories remains a mystery. Given the obvious national security implications of letting a foreign power (such as the USA) play with a country's economy, the livelihoods of its people and the well being of its businesses, it is not clear why other independent countries have never created alternative foreign exchange trading centres of their own.

To the best of my knowledge, some of the prominent developing countries that have been able to enjoy trade and current account surpluses year after year after year without much in the way of oil/gas/energy resources are Malaysia, Thailand and China.

Of these countries, Malaysia remains the only OIC country. However, as it may be well known, to this day, there remains a deep economic and massive social inequality between the various demographic groups in Malaysia. The majority ethnic Malay, who are Muslims by law, have not been able to bridge the economic divide and linger behind their less numerous Chinese citizens in economic, education, employment and entrepreneurial indicators.

Why such countries as Iran, Turkey, Indonesia or India have not been able to succeed in this pursuit of racking up trade and current account surpluses year after year after year remains a mystery.

A closer look at the respective investment development boards of the respective countries may provide some hints.

For Turkey

Sectors - Invest in Türkiye

Explore untapped investment opportunities across a variety of industries in Türkiye.

www.invest.gov.tr

For Malaysia

https://www.mida.gov.my/industries/manufacturing/

For Indonesia

https://www2.investindonesia.go.id/en/why-invest/business-opportunities

For Thailand, China, Iran or India, I could not find similar sites. It is possible that they exist. Interested members are free to look them up on their own and form a clear idea.