TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

Yasar_TR

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@UkroTurk ,
Kinematics of both missiles are different.

ESSM is optimised for defending sea platforms against all threats in mid range. As per @Anmdt has pointed out it is a very very good “point defence” missile.
ESSM uses a dual thrust engine. It has dual fuel in its tank. quick burning one burns quickly to bring the missile to a high speed in a short time. Then the slow burning fuel sustains the speed as long as possible. But in the long run its high speed declines.

Hisar-D is also a mid range missile. As the “D” in the name suggests, it “should” be optimised for sea platforms too. But we did not see it perform such tasks as hitting a sea skimming missile or an incoming supersonic missile (this is also a capability of ESSM).

Hisar-D has a dual pulse engine. This means it‘s fuel tank is in two sections. It uses the first section to bring the missile to a high speed. As it is losing speed it uses the fuel in the second portion of the fuel tank and gains more speed and acquires the target. For longer ranges and better target acquisition this is a very effective missile engine. Longer range a2a missiles also use this class of engine.
Hisar-D missile, by logical deduction should have better kinematics. But Roketsan gives a range of 25km and with RF seeker a range of 40+km and an effective altitude of 15km. It is similar to ESSM. (However ESSM effective altitude is not given)

ESSM is a 366cm long 25.4cm diameter missile. Weighing 280kg.
Hisar RF missile is 4.6m long and 18.5cm in diameter and weight unknown. It is smaller than ESSM in volume though (1.27m3 to 1.85m3.)
This suggests more fuel in ESSM.

Both, dual thrust and dual pulse engined missiles will almost always have no propulsion when they hit their targets as they will have run out of fuel. But even if technologically a dual pulse engined missile has better kinematics than a like for like dual thrust engined missile, just with the fuel advantage, ESSM could surpass Hisar-D.
 

chngr

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@UkroTurk ,
Kinematics of both missiles are different.

ESSM is optimised for defending sea platforms against all threats in mid range. As per @Anmdt has pointed out it is a very very good “point defence” missile.
ESSM uses a dual thrust engine. It has dual fuel in its tank. quick burning one burns quickly to bring the missile to a high speed in a short time. Then the slow burning fuel sustains the speed as long as possible. But in the long run its high speed declines.

Hisar-D is also a mid range missile. As the “D” in the name suggests, it “should” be optimised for sea platforms too. But we did not see it perform such tasks as hitting a sea skimming missile or an incoming supersonic missile (this is also a capability of ESSM).

Hisar-D has a dual pulse engine. This means it‘s fuel tank is in two sections. It uses the first section to bring the missile to a high speed. As it is losing speed it uses the fuel in the second portion of the fuel tank and gains more speed and acquires the target. For longer ranges and better target acquisition this is a very effective missile engine. Longer range a2a missiles also use this class of engine.
Hisar-D missile, by logical deduction should have better kinematics. But Roketsan gives a range of 25km and with RF seeker a range of 40+km and an effective altitude of 15km. It is similar to ESSM. (However ESSM effective altitude is not given)

ESSM is a 366cm long 25.4cm diameter missile. Weighing 280kg.
Hisar RF missile is 4.6m long and 18.5cm in diameter and weight unknown. It is smaller than ESSM in volume though (1.27m3 to 1.85m3.)
This suggests more fuel in ESSM.

Both, dual thrust and dual pulse engined missiles will almost always have no propulsion when they hit their targets as they will have run out of fuel. But even if technologically a dual pulse engined missile has better kinematics than a like for like dual thrust engined missile, just with the fuel advantage, ESSM could surpass Hisar-D.
No...Hisar RF's diameter 234mm and length 4.5m.

I read somewhere say dual trust useless because of missile already high speed your low trust sustain engine doesnt change too much...

Thats why change Aim-120b dual trust to Aim-120c all boost engine...Maybe this work only for high altidude BVR missiles, i dont know
1000007549.jpg
 
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Yasar_TR

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No...Hisar RF's diameter 234mm and length 4.5m.

I read somewhere say dual trust useless because of missile already high speed your low trust sustain engine doesnt change too much...

Thats why change Aim-120b dual trust to Aim-120c all boost engine...Maybe this work only for high altidude BVR missiles, i dont know
1755626128801.jpeg

Roketsan says it is 185mm.
 

Quasar

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I was thinking if TRLG 230 can be used in the anti ship role as well eventhough it has 42 kg warhead capcity and small mass it may still have some kinetic power to cause enough damage especially if critical sections of the enemy vessel can be targeted. Not just UAVs but our SİDAs can be used for illumination. Geographic disadvantage that we have in the Agean sea may easly turn into our advantage trough the use of SİDAs for illumination. Then here we have our first relativly cheap supersonic anti ship missile :devilish:

I am not saying this is TRLG 230's primary role but potential is clearly there, it can be used in anti ship role against opportunity targets.
 

Yasar_TR

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@Quasar ,
Good Idea Bro. But even the TRG300 doesn’t have enough mass/weight to hit target at high enough velocity to inflict the kinetic damage you are expecting. Trlg230 reaches 4.2 Mach in midcourse. But it will hit target at just under 1 Mach, like 07-0.8 Mach. TRG300 will at best hit the target just above 1 Mach. (See Israeli Rampage terminal speed)
You need propulsion during terminal phase like Brahmos has. (It hits target at or above 2.8mach)
But these TRG class missiles arrive at their target position at high supersonic close to hypersonic speeds. Then start to dive in. They start losing speed after 20km to 15km altitude when they are almost directly above target. So it doesn’t leave much reaction time to the AD systems.

The real break through will be when Tayfun-4 becomes moving target enabled rather than GOLIS that it already has which is for stationary targets.
 

Quasar

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@Quasar ,
Good Idea Bro. But even the TRG300 doesn’t have enough mass/weight to hit target at high enough velocity to inflict the kinetic damage you are expecting. Trlg230 reaches 4.2 Mach in midcourse. But it will hit target at just under 1 Mach, like 07-0.8 Mach. TRG300 will at best hit the target just above 1 Mach. (See Israeli Rampage terminal speed)
You need propulsion during terminal phase like Brahmos has. (It hits target at or above 2.8mach)
But these TRG class missiles arrive at their target position at high supersonic close to hypersonic speeds. Then start to dive in. They start losing speed after 20km to 15km altitude when they are almost directly above target. So it doesn’t leave much reaction time to the AD systems.

The real break through will be when Tayfun-4 becomes moving target enabled rather than GOLIS that it already has which is for stationary targets.
You are totally right! as always thanks for the substantial answer, lots has changed in my thoughts, since you already mentioned about low terminal speeds several times in diffrent threads. When I wrote this in 2022 what ı had in mind was sneaky Greek FACs hiding behind islets. Further, I am quite sure lots has changed in Greek strategy as well! :devilish:
 

UkroTurk

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1755634427380.jpeg

1755635127700.jpeg

It would be nightmare of our neighbor country. Turkish Navy really could use.
 

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UkroTurk

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Brother, i am not an expert of missile kinematics, and i lack the understanding of rocket engines in depth to answer this question precisely but 15 years of engineering experience taught me this philisophical aspect of people.

If someone speaks too sharply of a certain subject involving few areas of the expertise - he is either truly an expert in all and in project manager position leading one of those air-defense missile projects, or he is totally making it up through a dunning-kruger effect.

And here comes the other thing that i learnt at a cost through time;

If two concepts vary greatly - one can not win in all the aspects, you always trade off something in the optimization process - especially when it is multi-objective optimization.

Coming back at the missiles; i believe if we were to analyze these missiles through digital twins, we would happen to see one wins over up to an alititude and range, while other is taking over beyond it. Looking back at the ESSM's design principle, it is precisely a point defense missile tailored for surface skimming targets at 30-40 km, and precisely used for initial engagements. Also works for munitations separated from aerial targets. Given these facts, the missile itself has more than one engagement envelopes and optimized for certain scenarios based on the target distance - altitude.

So i will cut it short to say; yes ESSM has more kinematical capability up to a certain distance, better acceleration, better turn rate but this remains valid up to a distance and altitude, beyond that Hisar-D seems better by logic, but it doesn't last dramatically longer there. ESSM is fine tuned through the years hitting 2000+ missiles in production, tried by numerous navies in by years in exercises and lastly in Red Sea incicents against Houthis / Hisar-D however only engaged a high flying sub sonic and non-maneuvering target. That's where we are. Dual pulse isn't the ultimate solution, especially when your target lies close to surface and approaches from 30 km, onwards to the ship. For typical air defence missiles this is a non-brainer question to go for dual pulse for better NEZ since the target is not flying towards you directly - which is being the test scenario for Hisar-D in the last trials ; a point defense missile precisely engages a target heading right towards the launch platform - so there is no concerns for NEZ, which makes both equilavent.

Nonetheless, thinking of multiple uses - like Hisar-D B2 (quadpacked, capable of sea-skimming interception) may be utilized for pure aerial engagements like MICA as well, and might be furnished with a booster - like Siper-1, and quadpacked for pure aerial engagements which gives a common base for a future missile.
Damn there are a lot critical points for self defense of a warship.


Also I read that some anti-ship missiles could notice engagement of SAMs. Radar guided SAM emits Signal so anti-ship missile detect it and starts making evasive manouvers.

That's why RIM-116 has passive sensors.
Damn, now RAM seems to me more beautiful than Gökdoğan.

Also our guys put 2 x Levent missile on BURÇ and other wheeled platforms.
1755635793870.jpeg

1755635859769.jpeg

So why not adding 6x Levent on Gökdeniz CIWS??

Again I'm getting mad with this obsession.
 

Pokemonte13

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Quick question here
Damn there are a lot critical points for self defense of a warship.


Also I read that some anti-ship missiles could notice engagement of SAMs. Radar guided SAM emits Signal so anti-ship missile detect it and starts making evasive manouvers.

That's why RIM-116 has passive sensors.
Damn, now RAM seems to me more beautiful than Gökdoğan.

Also our guys put 2 x Levent missile on BURÇ and other wheeled platforms.
View attachment 77029
View attachment 77030
So why not adding 6x Levent on Gökdeniz CIWS??

Again I'm getting mad with this obsession.
Maybe size restraints but remember this
1755636423200.png
 

UkroTurk

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Quick question here

Maybe size restraints but remember this View attachment 77031
Noo. Now some people will be screaming: no it's useless because single barrel low rate of fire. Hell no.

Just need to add Leventts on both sides.
1755636559236.jpeg

Or need to create new cıws design from 35mm with Levent, like Russian Palma or naval pantsir
1755636836800.jpeg
 

Pokemonte13

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Noo. Now some people will be screaming: no it's useless because single barrel low rate of fire. Hell no.

Just need to add Leventts on both sides.
View attachment 77032
Or need to create new cıws design from 35mm with Levent, like Russian Palma or naval pantsir
View attachment 77033
theoretically you could use mke's revolver gun which has more than double firerate
 

Sanchez

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theoretically you could use mke's revolver gun which has more than double firerate
Only if we could actually see it in action after 10 years. Until then, it doesn't exist and such twin 35mms stay, so no realistic emplacement of missiles next to guns.
 

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